Ends and means

[bernee51]

From the accounts in the gospels, the torture and execution of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth was a hoorendous and barbaric act carried out for reasons contrived by the power structures at the time.

Without this act, however, the salvation claimed by christians would not have occured.

By these brutal acts those who believe benefit through 'eternal life'.

Was this act evil?

Is it a case of the means being justified by the ends?

[whirlwind]

From the accounts in the gospels, the torture and execution of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth was a hoorendous and barbaric act carried out for reasons contrived by the power structures at the time.

Without this act, however, the salvation claimed by christians would not have occured.

By these brutal acts those who believe benefit through 'eternal life'.

Was this act evil?

Is it a case of the means being justified by the ends?

The act was evil done by the evil but that was the reason He came in flesh. It was prophesied a thousand years before it happened [Psalms 22].

His purpose.....

1 John 3:5,8 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. (8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.


He didn't hide or try to stop it....it had to happen.....

John 18:10-12 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which My Father hath given Me, shall I not drink it? Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound Him,

[Zzyzx]

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<snip preaching and quotes from unverified source>

When the preaching and bible quotes are removed, there is nothing left.

[bernee51]

From the accounts in the gospels, the torture and execution of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth was a hoorendous and barbaric act carried out for reasons contrived by the power structures at the time.

Without this act, however, the salvation claimed by christians would not have occured.

By these brutal acts those who believe benefit through 'eternal life'.

Was this act evil?

Is it a case of the means being justified by the ends?

The act was evil done by the evil but that was the reason He came in flesh.

If this act was evil yet had the consequences you accept...why should the Holocaust (for example) be considered evil if it had consequences that can now perceived as acceptable?

Why should 'satan' be accepted as 'evil'?

It was prophesied a thousand years before it happened [Psalms 22].

Off topic, but....

Please show how this is a prophesy. I am sure the Judaic scholars amongst us will beg to differ.

Please show how this so-called prophesy is not a case of retrofitting aan event that was believed to have happened (death and resurrection) to fit with the OT text in order to give the beleif more credibility.

Why are you not being duped by this?

His purpose...

John quotes....

How did 'John', writing at the earliest some 50 years after the fact know all this?

How can what he wrote ver verified?

Why are you not being duped by this?

[thatoneguy]

The ends in religion do not justify the means. Religion, in practice, does not concern itself with the ends. God will handle the ends. You are responsible solely for the means. If they are evil, the ends could not matter less. There are exceptions, particularly in Judaism, which is a very self-reflective religion, but for the most part this is true of fanaticism in general. In practice, though, it seems the more tightly someone holds a dogmatic belief the less ends enter into the equation, at least from what I've seen.

[WinePusher]

From the accounts in the gospels, the torture and execution of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth was a hoorendous and barbaric act carried out for reasons contrived by the power structures at the time.

Without this act, however, the salvation claimed by christians would not have occured.

By these brutal acts those who believe benefit through 'eternal life'.

Was this act evil?

Is it a case of the means being justified by the ends?

The act was evil done by the evil but that was the reason He came in flesh. It was prophesied a thousand years before it happened [Psalms 22].

His purpose.....

1 John 3:5,8 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. (8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.


He didn't hide or try to stop it....it had to happen.....

John 18:10-12 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which My Father hath given Me, shall I not drink it? Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound Him,

I have read your a lot of your posts, and all they are is bible quotes. Bible quotes are not convincing arguments, bible quotes will not suade the other side, bible quotes are considered worthless by some people. So it rather pointless for you to continue posting these quotes.

[Misty]

I am of the opinion the concept of Jesus 'dying to save us all' was spin put around by his followers in reponse to his tragic early death.

[Megaboomer]

are we just learning from the christians and picking apart their arguments for Jesus Living a perfect Life and dying a terrible death? or is there any elegid evidence/ reason to believe the contrary?

[Crazy Ivan]

are we just learning from the christians(...)

There's very little learning going on... but there's substantial biblical quotation outside the appropriate sub-forum, where they might be given authoritative value. Not the case here.

and picking apart their arguments for Jesus Living a perfect Life and dying a terrible death? or is there any elegid evidence/ reason to believe the contrary?

As much as there is to disbelieve any other mythology... which is lack of evidence substantiating belief. You're welcome to start a thread posting your evidence to substantiate belief. In this sub-forum, though, the Bible is not considered authoritative, i.e. it does not substantiate itself.

[whirlwind]

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<snip preaching and quotes from unverified source>

When the preaching and bible quotes are removed, there is nothing left.

That is true Z. Profoundly true. There is nothing left.