Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[A Freeman]

James 2:17-26
2:17 Even so FAITH, if it hath not WORKS, is DEAD, being alone.
2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will SHOW thee my faith BY my works.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils (liars) also believe, and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain (worthless) man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD?
2:21 Was not our father justified by WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar (and God made him your example - Sura 16:123; 60:4)?
2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS was faith (trust in God) MADE PERFECT?
2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed ONLY God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.
2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.

Ephesians 2:8-10
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (do them - good works).

Matthew 16:27-28
16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste death (of the "Self"), till they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.

Revelation 20:12-15
20:12 And I saw the "Dead", small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another Book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life: and the "Dead" were judged out of those things which were written in the Books, according to their works.
20:13 And the "sea" gave up the "Dead" which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the "Lake of Fire". This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the "Lake of Fire".

How can such a clear message, repeated throughout Scripture, be so misunderstood?

We should be putting our Faith into practice every minute of every day by thinking very carefully about everything we think, say and do, so that all of it is inline with Father's Will.

All Father has ever wanted for us is to conquer our own egos (the "self") so that we no longer are enslaved to our own selfish will, but instead can learn the beauty and wonder of doing His Will.

Father's Will BEGINS with the keeping of His Perfect Law of Liberty, and continues with listening for His Instruction and Guidance in everything we think, say or do. If we love Father (God) and His Christ, then we will keep The Commandments/Law, which is the only way one can truly love Father and their neighbour as much or more than themselves (Mark 12:29-31).

[POI]

Below is the list of options. Based upon your selected verses, what is your choice, so far?

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW - No answer
Post 27: Eloi - No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 - answer B)
Post 76: Tam - answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 - answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 - answer D)
Post 321: AFG - answer D)
Post 758: Mea Von H - answer A) or E)?
Post 916: 1213 - answer B)
Post 920: Capbook - answer D)
post 938: armchairscholar - answer D)
post 1014: Marke - answer B)

How can such a clear message, repeated throughout Scripture, be so misunderstood?

1) If the message is so clear, then exactly why do we have such diversity among earnest believers?
2) Why is Jesus pleased with the result of his message, being that there exists absolutely no unanimous/universal upstanding on how to achieve salvation?
3) Why is the Bible contradictory in this message? See below...

Even if you gave the most stellar argument or put forward the best case possible, the starting point is the problem. This starting point is the Bible itself. When the topic of "salvation" is said to be placed directly into the mouth of Jesus, Jesus gives differing answers at differing times. Case/point:

In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus expresses the differences between a "sheep" and a "goat". The "sheep" are chosen while the "goats" are not. The description given of the "sheep" does not involve or include Jesus-faith, or answer B), anywhere. Jesus instead emphasizes works, or answer C). This passage reads as if works alone can earn favor. In other areas of the Bible, when Jesus is again to have a direct say about salvation, Jesus emphasizes Jesus-faith, or answer B). These passages would include John 14:1, John 20:29, Romans 10:9-10., etc.........

And this is before we discuss if BOTH are needed, or answer D) - Jesus-faith and works? And if it is answer D), as many seem to pick, then how much of each is required? I mean, is your faith directly measured by your number of good works/deeds? Is it other?

And on top off all of this, what is to come of the folks who cannot apply these requirements? Are they given grace/immunity? If so, then do we ignore the above, or is the answer really A) - unconditional grace since Jesus already sacrificed himself and we humans cannot really truly earn salvation regardless?

The over-arching point being, stating you are a Christian alone means very little. You have three distinct branches (Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic). And then these three main branches splinter off into almost countless sub-sections. Many of which, have opposing specific requirements for salvation.

[1213]

Unconditional grace would mean 'everyone goes'....

Why? In Biblical point of view grace is unconditional, but it does not mean everyone will get eternal life.

[POI]

Unconditional grace would mean 'everyone goes'....

Why? In Biblical point of view grace is unconditional, but it does not mean everyone will get eternal life.

Unconditional grace is given freely and without any conditions, while conditional grace is tied to certain actions or requirements. In your case, the action/requirement is being deemed loyal/faithful/righteous. Hence, your answer looks to either be B) or D). I've had you down for option B) since post 916. But feel free to change it to option D), if you feel this suits you better?

[A Freeman]

Below is the list of options. Based upon your selected verses, what is your choice, so far?

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW - No answer
Post 27: Eloi - No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 - answer B)
Post 76: Tam - answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 - answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 - answer D)
Post 321: AFG - answer D)
Post 758: Mea Von H - answer A) or E)?
Post 916: 1213 - answer B)
Post 920: Capbook - answer D)
post 938: armchairscholar - answer D)
post 1014: Marke - answer B)

Out of the above "options", the one described in "D" contains elements of the Strait and Narrow Way which leads to Life, but even it is very poorly worded. Why not word an option by using Scripture itself (e.g. James 2:17-26 that was previously quoted) instead of making up vague/ambiguous statements and offering those as if they represent our REAL options?

Our options are very simple and easy to understand: we can either learn The Way home -- by following Christ's Teachings and Example -- or we will face The Fire that awaits most of mankind on Judgement Day, for our continued treason against God, exactly as we've been warned for thousands of years.

Jesus died to pay for our PAST sins (Rom. 3:25), NOT to give us the freedom to sin (break The Law - 1 John 3:4) with impunity. We are not just to "believe"; we are told in no uncertain terms that it is imperative that we get to KNOW Both The One True God (our heavenly Father) AND Christ, the Saviour, whom Father sent.

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, and Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast sent.

The ONLY Way to get to know someone is to spend time with them. Speak to them. LISTEN to them. Put their doctrine into action to see how it works (John 7:16-17). Build a relationship with them based upon mutual trust and respect.

With "belief" there is still an element of doubt. TRUE Faith is KNOWING that IF we hold up our end of the relationship -- by keeping our Covenant Promise to God to put His Law/Commandments, Statutes and Judgments into action in our lives -- THEN we KNOW that God will keep His Covenant Promise to us; to bless us (Deut. 28:1-14), keep and save us, that we may LIVE (Deut. 30:15-20) and let His Face shine upon us, be gracious and merciful to us, and give us PEACE (Num. 6:24-26).

If someone truly understands the sacrifices that have been made, and the gifts we've been given, what wouldn't they do to reciprocate the love, kindness, generosity, mercy, grace, patience and long-suffering we've been shown? How else would one reasonably respond to someone they know and love?

How can such a clear message, repeated throughout Scripture, be so misunderstood?

1) If the message is so clear, then exactly why do we have such diversity among earnest believers?
2) Why is Jesus pleased with the result of his message, being that there exists absolutely no unanimous/universal upstanding on how to achieve salvation?

Because the simple message of salvation through discipline, obedience and "self"-sacrifice that Christ brought while incarnated inside of Jesus will be understood by the precious few who are meant to understand it (John 10:1-18). Those who are not meant to understand it -- because they have no real love for truth or for others, and lack the desire to learn, and lack the determination to strive for perfection in their own lives (to show their appreciation and love for one another) -- won't.

3) Why is the Bible contradictory in this message? See below...

It isn't. It only seems that way to the stiff-necked and hard-hearted, because their arrogance and ignorance blinds them to the truth, including the ignorance of their own arrogance (Prov. 22:4).

Even if you gave the most stellar argument or put forward the best case possible, the starting point is the problem. This starting point is the Bible itself. When the topic of "salvation" is said to be placed directly into the mouth of Jesus, Jesus gives differing answers at differing times. Case/point:

In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus expresses the differences between a "sheep" and a "goat". The "sheep" are chosen while the "goats" are not. The description given of the "sheep" does not involve or include Jesus-faith, or answer B), anywhere. Jesus instead emphasizes works, or answer C). This passage reads as if works alone can earn favor. In other areas of the Bible, when Jesus is again to have a direct say about salvation, Jesus emphasizes Jesus-faith, or answer B). These passages would include John 14:1, John 20:29, Romans 10:9-10., etc.........

This is a great example of the spiritual blindness that we are warned about repeatedly throughout Scripture.

A shepherd LEADS his sheep to safety and sustenance. His sheep hear his voice and they KNOW him and that he will never let them down (read: John 10:1-18). That's why the sheep flock together to their shepherd.

On the other hand, the "goats" roam all over. They are unpredictable, difficult to lead, and exhibit a herd mentality. We literally have an expression "acting/playing the goat" to describe people who act in an irresponsible, ridiculous way (similar to what you're doing in your constant confusion, always looking for contradiction where none exists, while walking right past the obvious answers).

So, it's really a very simple example given in Matthew 25:31-46, which the "sheep" will understand perfectly, while the "goats" remain clueless. And it's perfectly consistent with John 14:1, John 20:29 and Romans 10:9-10, because you cannot recognize, believe and follow the Shepherd, unless you're one of His Sheep.

And this is before we discuss if BOTH are needed, or answer D) - Jesus-faith and works? And if it is answer D), as many seem to pick, then how much of each is required? I mean, is your faith directly measured by your number of good works/deeds? Is it other?

You keep talking about "Jesus-faith" as if that is a term used in Scripture. It isn't.

Faith is trusting God -- THE God and Father of Christ -- Who SENT His Christ to incarnate the human body of Jesus 2000 years ago, to deliver God's Message of Truth to mankind (the human+Beings kept here on Earth).

It should be self-evident that Faith and doing Good Works/Deeds go hand-in-hand, i.e. are inseparable, symbiotic, and build upon one another. The more Faith one has, the more good work they will produce. And similarly, the more good work one does, the more one's faith increases, seeing the benefits and blessings that naturally flow from good works for all concerned.

IF one understands that all goodness emanates from a single source: God, Who is Good [Go(o)d] and all evil likewise emanates from a single source: the devil [d/evil], through the ego/"self", then it logically follows that if one chooses to fill themselves with good, then they will produce good (the fruit of their labour).

This is why Christ provided the following lesson and example.

Matthew 7:16-20
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into The Fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

This isn't a carburetor on a gasoline engine looking for a 15:1 air-to-fuel ratio to work efficiently; this is an ENDLESS supply of goodness waiting for anyone who sees its value and taps into it and keep their tank/cup/vessel filled to overflowing at all times.

And on top off all of this, what is to come of the folks who cannot apply these requirements? Are they given grace/immunity? If so, then do we ignore the above, or is the answer really A) - unconditional grace since Jesus already sacrificed himself and we humans cannot really truly earn salvation regardless?

When someone allows their imagination to run wild (Gen. 6:5), it will fill up with ridiculous questions to continually confuse them and keep their minds stuck in the past or guessing at what may or may not happen in the future, instead of learning to focus on where they are and on what they are doing in the PRESENT moment.

The answers to the questions you've asked above have already been provided in Scripture, which very plainly states:

Matthew 7:13-14
7:13 Enter ye in at the "Strait" gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because Strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] The Way, which leadeth unto Life, and FEW there be that find it.

The evil majority on this planet are almost always wrong (Exod. 23:2), and yet people continue to follow evil worldly leaders to their destruction (Isa. 3:12) because of their herd-mentality (goats). We are literally on the precipice of the final phase of WW3 and most people STILL don't get it. All part of the inverted vision (insanity really) that plagues most of mankind.

The above passage, coupled with the passages in Revelation (Rev. 7:4-9 and Rev. 14:1-14) which provide us with an exact number to define what "few" means, should leave no reasonable doubt in anyone's mind as to how this works. 144,000 out of 8,000,000,000 is a very small number (less than 0.002%).

The over-arching point being, stating you are a Christian alone means very little.

Agreed. Nowhere in all of Scripture does it say that "Christians" will be saved. In fact, if it's read properly, the Bible condemns ALL organized religion and their sales-staff (priests, pastors, rabbis, imams, etc.). Organized religion was created by Satan to keep people away from God. According to Christ, no "Christian" (nor "Muslim", nor "Jew", nor "Hindu", nor "Buddhist", etc.) has EVER been saved
(John 3:13).

You have three distinct branches (Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic). And then these three main branches splinter off into almost countless sub-sections. Many of which, have opposing specific requirements for salvation.

Exactly. And what did Christ actually tell us through the mouth of Jesus?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am The Way, the Truth, and the Life: NOT one man cometh unto the Father, EXCEPT by me.

He didn't say there are three distinct ways, much less thousands of different ways home, to Father; He said there is ONE WAY and that is to follow His Teachings and Example and put all of it into practice in our daily lives.

[POI]

Out of the above "options", the one described in "D" contains elements of the Strait and Narrow Way which leads to Life, but even it is very poorly worded. Why not word an option by using Scripture itself

The options provided are purposefully broadly generalized. The starting point would be to first narrow down broad categories, such as:

Is God's grace conditional or unconditional?
Is faith/belief/trust/loyalty/other required?
Are other works/actions also required on top of this?
Is there anything else on top of these broad categories?

Our options are very simple and easy to understand:

This response implies (3) possible things.

1) The ones who are wrong are dumb, and/or...
2) The ones who are wrong are evil, and/or...
3) Most/all believers have the same amount of conviction as you, and also provide scripture to back up their alternative position(s), which then circles us right back to the beginning to no end.

Jesus died to pay for our PAST sins (Rom. 3:25), NOT to give us the freedom to sin (break The Law - 1 John 3:4) with impunity. We are not just to "believe"; we are told in no uncertain terms that it is imperative that we get to KNOW Both The One True God (our heavenly Father) AND Christ, the Saviour, whom Father sent.

The ONLY Way to get to know someone is to spend time with them. Speak to them. LISTEN to them. Put their doctrine into action to see how it works (John 7:16-17). Build a relationship with them based upon mutual trust and respect.

1) What is to become of an individual who has never heard of "Jesus", tries their best to be 'moral', and then dies?
2) What becomes of an individual who is born without the ability to clearly reason, and then dies?

With "belief" there is still an element of doubt. TRUE Faith is KNOWING that IF we hold up our end of the relationship -- by keeping our Covenant Promise to God to put His Law/Commandments, Statutes and Judgments into action in our lives -- THEN we KNOW that God will keep His Covenant Promise to us; to bless us (Deut. 28:1-14), keep and save us, that we may LIVE (Deut. 30:15-20) and let His Face shine upon us, be gracious and merciful to us, and give us PEACE (Num. 6:24-26).

If someone truly understands the sacrifices that have been made, and the gifts we've been given, what wouldn't they do to reciprocate the love, kindness, generosity, mercy, grace, patience and long-suffering we've been shown? How else would one reasonably respond to someone they know and love?

Noted. All this encompasses option B) and/or D).

Because the simple message of salvation through discipline, obedience and "self"-sacrifice that Christ brought while incarnated inside of Jesus will be understood by the precious few who are meant to understand it (John 10:1-18). Those who are not meant to understand it -- because they have no real love for truth or for others, and lack the desire to learn, and lack the determination to strive for perfection in their own lives (to show their appreciation and love for one another) -- won't.

How does one know whether or not they are meant to understand it when all earnest loving believers possess the same conviction as you, while also using the same book to justify their alternative position(s)?

It isn't. It only seems that way to the stiff-necked and hard-hearted, because their arrogance and ignorance blinds them to the truth, including the ignorance of their own arrogance (Prov. 22:4).

See my response directly above.

This is a great example of the spiritual blindness that we are warned about repeatedly throughout Scripture.

A shepherd LEADS his sheep to safety and sustenance. His sheep hear his voice and they KNOW him and that he will never let them down (read: John 10:1-18). That's why the sheep flock together to their shepherd.

On the other hand, the "goats" roam all over. They are unpredictable, difficult to lead, and exhibit a herd mentality. We literally have an expression "acting/playing the goat" to describe people who act in an irresponsible, ridiculous way (similar to what you're doing in your constant confusion, always looking for contradiction where none exists, while walking right past the obvious answers).

So, it's really a very simple example given in Matthew 25:31-46, which the "sheep" will understand perfectly, while the "goats" remain clueless. And it's perfectly consistent with John 14:1, John 20:29 and Romans 10:9-10, because you cannot recognize, believe and follow the Shepherd, unless you're one of His Sheep.

My point here was missed. In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus' parable of the sheep and the goats focuses on the final judgment and the basis of God's separation of people. Instead of faith, the passage emphasizes actions, particularly acts of service towards others, as the criteria for determining who will inherit eternal life and who will not. Nowhere does Jesus mention that one of the requirements for salvation involves 'faith'. The expressed acts, in Matthew 25:31-46, can be performed while not specifically having faith in Jesus. This is further emphasized in verse 44, when his audience mistakenly thought Jesus meant serving him, when Jesus responds in verse 45 with, (paraphrased) "no silly, I mean serve others."

You keep talking about "Jesus-faith" as if that is a term used in Scripture. It isn't. Faith is trusting God -- THE God and Father of Christ -- Who SENT His Christ to incarnate the human body of Jesus 2000 years ago, to deliver God's Message of Truth to mankind (the human+Beings kept here on Earth).

Yes, all encompassed generally in option B).

[1213]

Unconditional grace is given freely and without any conditions, while conditional grace is tied to certain actions or requirements. ...

I think the problem here is that you mix up the idea of forgiving sins and getting into heaven or eternal life. Eternal life is promised only for righteous. Forgiveness is offered freely also for unrighteous. But, forgiveness is not useful, if person doesn't become righteous.

[POI]

Unconditional grace is given freely and without any conditions, while conditional grace is tied to certain actions or requirements. ...

I think the problem here is that you mix up the idea of forgiving sins and getting into heaven or eternal life. Eternal life is promised only for righteous. Forgiveness is offered freely also for unrighteous. But, forgiveness is not useful, if person doesn't become righteous.

We are just going in circles. over and over and over again.

[A Freeman]

According to Christ, no "Christian", of ANY denomination (or other organized religion/sect/cult, etc.), has ever gone to heaven, proving that arguing over these REDEFINED doctrines and traditions of "grace" and/or "Belief/Faith" and/or "Works" are pointless.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is from heaven.

We were sent here to DO good works, i.e. our actions should be good according to God.

Ephesians 2:8-10
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to DO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (do them - good works, i.e. "walk the walk" not just talk the talk).

The more we practice DOING good, the more effortless it becomes, until we are enough like Jesus -- who was FULL of grace and truth -- to be released from this prison planet. We've been granted a grace period of 2000 years since Christ came in the body of Jesus, to teach and show us The Way home, and the world is worse now than it's ever been, proving we've been going in the wrong direction and that ALL of the organized religions are WRONG (i.e. they are the broad path that leads to destruction - Matt. 7:13-14).

"Faith" is trust in God. It is NOT enough to "believe", as belief still involves an element of doubt. Abandoning all trust in man-made traditions, doctrines and religious superstitions, and placing ALL trust in God is the ONLY Way any of us will ever leave here (Earth) and go home, to our REAL family and friends. And yes, Faith and gracefully DOING good works always go hand-in-hand, because of their symbiotic relationship (where one is the other will always be).

James 2:17-26
2:17 Even so FAITH, if it hath not WORKS, is DEAD, being alone.
2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will SHOW thee my faith BY my works.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils (liars) also believe, and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain (worthless) man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD?
2:21 Was not our father justified by WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar (and God made him your example - Sura 16:123; 60:4)?
2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS was faith (trust in God) MADE PERFECT?
2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed ONLY God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.
2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.

1 John 3:4-10
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our (past) sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

We should all be so full of faith in God and His Perfect Law that we not only keep His Law but put it into practice in every aspect of our lives, KNOWING that the benefits and blessings for all concerned will unquestionably follow. THAT is The Lesson and Example that Christ came to show us while incarnated inside of the body of Jesus.

[POI]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #1029]

You skipped my questions and responses in post 1026:

Is God's grace conditional or unconditional?
Is faith/belief/trust/loyalty/other required?
Are other works/actions also required on top of this?
Is there anything else on top of these broad categories?

****************************

Your prior response implies (3) possible things.

1) The ones who are wrong are dumb, and/or...
2) The ones who are wrong are evil, and/or...
3) Most/all believers have the same amount of conviction as you, and also provide scripture to back up their alternative position(s), which then circles us right back to the beginning to no end.

*****************************

1) What is to become of an individual who has never heard of "Jesus", tries their best to be 'moral', and then dies?
2) What becomes of an individual who is born without the ability to clearly reason, and then dies?

******************************

How does one know whether or not they are meant to understand it when all earnest loving believers possess the same conviction as you, while also using the same book to justify their alternative position(s)?

*******************************

In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus' parable of the sheep and the goats focuses on the final judgment and the basis of God's separation of people. Instead of faith, the passage emphasizes actions, particularly acts of service towards others, as the criteria for determining who will inherit eternal life and who will not. Nowhere does Jesus mention that one of the requirements for salvation involves 'faith'. The expressed acts, in Matthew 25:31-46, can be performed while not specifically having faith in Jesus. This is further emphasized in verse 44, when his audience mistakenly thought Jesus meant serving him, when Jesus responds in verse 45 with, (paraphrased) "no silly, I mean serve others."

Hence, is 'faith' required, or not? If faith is required, then must one ignore the verses above?