Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[A Freeman]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #1029]

You skipped my questions and responses in post 1026:

Is God's grace conditional or unconditional?
Is faith/belief/trust/loyalty/other required?
Are other works/actions also required on top of this?
Is there anything else on top of these broad categories?

None of these questions were actually skipped. Please read what was actually shared. All three of these questions were answered.

There is no such thing as faith without the doing of good works, and vise-versa. The two go hand-in-hand. And "grace" is the effortless (graceful) doing of God's Will, built on the firm foundation of His Law. We've all been given a 2000 year grace period to come to our senses, so it is only by God's Grace that we are still here, with a final opportunity to work our way through faith into His Good Graces.

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Your prior response implies (3) possible things.

1) The ones who are wrong are dumb, and/or...

When someone places their trust in the so-called "experts", which are really "the blind leading the blind" exactly as Christ-Jesus said, that lack of faith (trust in God) leads them to believe that we are doing wonderful works that are actually only making things worse instead of better.

Matthew 7:21-23
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into The Kingdom of heaven; ONLY he that doeth the Will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in That Day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work inequity.

Being blinded by our own arrogance/ignorance (the ego/"self") is why we have been repeatedly told that we must crucify the "self" daily (e.g. Luke 9:23, 14:26-27), i.e. stop trusting in the "self" and start trusting God instead.

2) The ones who are wrong are evil, and/or...

We are ALL evil. What do you think a "sinner" is please? A sinner is someone who does evil, by breaking God's Law. Another word used to describe law-breakers is CRIMINAL.

This means we have ALL been wrong, and would continue down the WRONG path if not for Christ coming again now, right before Judgement Day, to "break the seals" on Scripture and explain the mystery of God to a world full of spiritually deaf and blind criminals (aka "sinners").

3) Most/all believers have the same amount of conviction as you, and also provide scripture to back up their alternative position(s), which then circles us right back to the beginning to no end.

It doesn't matter what any of us believe nor with how much conviction someone expresses their opinions. The ONLY thing that matters is what it actually says in Scripture. Sadly most choose to mix their own doctrines and traditions in with the Scripture, which is exactly why ALL of us have been deceived (Rev. 12:9) and thus remained confused and waiting for Christ's Second Coming, to open and explain Scripture to us yet again.

It should be self-evident that very, very few will actually find the "Strait Gate" that leads to Eternal Life (Matt. 7:13-14; Rev. 7:4-9; Rev. 14:1-4), so choosing to go along with the evil majority, which is almost always wrong (Exod. 23:2) is a sure-fire recipe for winding up in The Fire on Judgement Day.

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1) What is to become of an individual who has never heard of "Jesus", tries their best to be 'moral', and then dies?

We've all had thousands of years and plenty of human lifetimes to learn what we need to learn. Everyone has had the opportunity to correct their selfish and evil ways, and to get to know both Father (The One True God) and Christ, the Saviour, whom Father sent (John 17:3). Even the Eastern/Dharmic texts point toward the Bible, as they talk about learning self-control through self-discipline and self-sacrifice and also that we have been here for a long, long time (i.e. they teach about reincarnation and karma/just desserts/sowing and reaping, just as the Bible does).

What you may or may not realize is that the asking of this question indicates a lack of faith, as it wrongly assumes that God is not just and fair at all times to everyone.

2) What becomes of an individual who is born without the ability to clearly reason, and then dies?

Do you actually believe that we are not all subject to a perfect reward and punishment system? We are all in exactly the place we have EARNED a right to be, in eternal time, based on the only true, fair and just standard there is: God's.

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How does one know whether or not they are meant to understand it when all earnest loving believers possess the same conviction as you, while also using the same book to justify their alternative position(s)?

Those who are meant to understand it, will understand it. They will seek with all of their heart, mind, soul and strength, and will be rewarded with the recognition and love of truth for seeking it.

When Christ told us NOT to judge others by our own faulty standards (Matt. 7:1-4), that included judging the efforts and convictions of others, which are irrelevant.

This isn't a popularity contest, nor is it a screaming match. The squeaky wheel/loudest voice here won't get the grease (Matt. 6:7); those humble enough to see their own shortcomings, and genuinely work to rectify them, will receive "the oil of understanding/enlightenment" (Psalm 23:5; Sura 24:35)

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In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus' parable of the sheep and the goats focuses on the final judgment and the basis of God's separation of people.

Correct. Where Christ's "Sheep" are those that recognize and follow The Good Shepherd's Voice, and the goats are those "playing the goat".

Instead of faith, the passage emphasizes actions, particularly acts of service towards others, as the criteria for determining who will inherit eternal life and who will not.

As previously shared, there is no such thing as faith without good works, just as there is no such thing as good works without true faith. So the assumption that "faith" and (good) actions are somehow mutually exclusive, is in error (and is a non-sequitur logical fallacy).

Nowhere does Jesus mention that one of the requirements for salvation involves 'faith'.

Seriously? There's probably at least 50 references to faith (or the lack thereof) in the Gospel accounts. Faith is the polar opposite of fear, so where there is 100% faith there is no fear. A few examples below:

Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Mark 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, THY FAITH HATH SAVED THEE; go in peace.

John 20:26 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach here thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach here thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and BE NOT FAITHLESS, but believing.

Does it need to be included in every parable or verse for you to believe it? Christ repeatedly scolded those of little faith, praised those who showed some faith, and wondered with the world going steadily downhill whether He would find faith on Earth upon His Return. He also said that everyone would be judged/rewarded according to their works (Matt. 16:27) and that everyone needed to keep The Law/Commandments of God (Matt. 5:17-19).

Stop selectively deciding what a verse means by itself, in a vacuum (cherry-picking), and start taking ALL of Scripture together, so you can understand its TRUE meaning. No one could understand a book of any kind by only reading small parts of it instead of the entire book.

The expressed acts, in Matthew 25:31-46, can be performed while not specifically having faith in Jesus.
First of all, faith is trust in God. Jesus was NOT God, nor did Jesus ever claim to be God.

Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

Secondly, we should all be learning to have the faith (trust in God) that Christ displayed while here in the body of Jesus. Christ is our Example of faith (John 14:6).

And finally, if you are assuming that people can do good (Godly) works (i.e. God's Will) while at the same time not believing that God is guiding them to do His Will, then you are in obvious error, having ignored dozens of passages that say the exact opposite.

This is further emphasized in verse 44, when his audience mistakenly thought Jesus meant serving him, when Jesus responds in verse 45 with, (paraphrased) "no silly, I mean serve others."

Of course we should all be serving one another and the greater, common good, as it says in God's Law, which Christ-Jesus confirmed on numerous occasions, including in this parable about separating the sheep (those that do good, Godly works) from the goats (those that do their own selfish will).

Hence, is 'faith' required, or not? Seems to suggest that faith is required means one must ignore the verses above.

Faith in God and doing God's Will are very obviously NOT mutually exclusive. There is no way to even know what good and evil are without trusting God's definitions of good and evil in His Law. Even the work that Jesus did was tied to faith.

Matthew 13:57-58
13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
13:58 And he did not many mighty works there BECAUSE of their unbelief (i.e. their lack of faith).

Hence the reason James said the following:

James 2:17 Even so FAITH, if it hath not WORKS, is DEAD, being alone.

[POI]

None of these questions were actually skipped. Please read what was actually shared. All three of these questions were answered.

There is no such thing as faith without the doing of good works, and vise-versa. The two go hand-in-hand. And "grace" is the effortless (graceful) doing of God's Will, built on the firm foundation of His Law. We've all been given a 2000 year grace period to come to our senses, so it is only by God's Grace that we are still here, with a final opportunity to work our way through faith into His Good Graces.

Hmm?

1. Does this mean 'grace' is necessarily conditional? yes or no?
2. Does this mean 'faith' is necessarily required? yes or no?
3. The 'golden rule' cannot be applied without 'faith'? Also explained below...

When someone places their trust in the so-called "experts", which are really "the blind leading the blind" exactly as Christ-Jesus said, that lack of faith (trust in God) leads them to believe that we are doing wonderful works that are actually only making things worse instead of better.

How do you know this is not you, being you are doing the same thing many others do. Meaning, you read the Bible and make your own interpretation. Maybe you are, in reality, misinterpreting? If you are, will Jesus pardon you, or offer 'grace' anyways for an earnest 'college try'?

We are ALL evil. What do you think a "sinner" is please? A sinner is someone who does evil, by breaking God's Law. Another word used to describe law-breakers is CRIMINAL.

You missed my point here. 'Evil forces' may be scrambling one's earnestly attempted translation. Maybe some 'eternal force' is prohibiting one from true understanding. Is this ever possible, or not? If so, how do you know 'evil' is not blocking your real interpretation? If not, then is 'evil' not allowed to interfere in such a way? And if 'evil' is not allowed to interfere, then maybe 'Satan'/'demons', or any other 'external evil', does not exist and/or is completely contained/removed? Which then begs more questions...?

It doesn't matter what any of us believe nor with how much conviction someone expresses their opinions. The ONLY thing that matters is what it actually says in Scripture. Sadly most choose to mix their own doctrines and traditions in with the Scripture, which is exactly why ALL of us have been deceived

Being all believers here are earnest in their convictions and also use the Bible to support their conflicting positions, verses yours, seems this gets us no closer to an actual answer.

Everyone has had the opportunity to correct their selfish and evil ways, and to get to know both Father (The One True God) and Christ, the Saviour, whom Father sent.

This statement is patently false. Many die very young. What is to become of them? Are they awarded "unconditional grace"? If the answer is yes, then this means 'faith'/other is not absolutely necessary, as asked above. If no, then not all are given a chance to apply 'freewill' to decide?

Do you actually believe that we are not all subject to a perfect reward and punishment system? We are all in exactly the place we have EARNED a right to be, in eternal time, based on the only true, fair and just standard there is: God's.

Are you under the impression a 'stillborn' has the ability to reason such concepts, in applying faith/works/other?

Those who are meant to understand it, will understand it. They will seek with all of their heart, mind, soul and strength, and will be rewarded with the recognition and love of truth for seeking it.

This response does not answer the question. How do you know you are actually understanding correctly, being all others here quote verses from the Bible as well to propose an alternative answer?

As previously shared, there is no such thing as faith without good works, just as there is no such thing as good works without true faith. So the assumption that "faith" and (good) actions are somehow mutually exclusive, is in error (and is a non-sequitur logical fallacy).

False. The 'golden rule' can be applied while worshipping a differing god(s) or no god(s).

Seriously? There's probably at least 50 references to faith (or the lack thereof) in the Gospel accounts.

Yes, seriously. In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus was apparently directly asked how one gets to heaven by a particular group of followers. Jesus omits 'faith'. If the followers already knew how one is saved, they would not have asked. The fact that Jesus omits the topic of 'faith' here, means it must not be mandatory, at least for these folks.

Does it need to be included in every parable or verse for you to believe it?

If someone asks Jesus a question, and he is giving differing answers to differing folks who ask, then maybe the criteria are not the same for all?

Stop selectively deciding what a verse means by itself, in a vacuum (cherry-picking),

And yet, I can accuse you of the exact same thing, being I did not merely pluck one verse, but an entire passage - (in complete context).

[A Freeman]

Daniel 12:1-2
12:1 And at that time shall Michael [the Archangel] (Eno. 20:5; 36:1; 40:8; 58:1; 59:9; 57:1-2; 70:4; Rev. 12:7; Sura 2:98) stand up, the Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life] (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:15; 21:27; Sura 83:20).
12:2 And many of them that sleep in "the dust of the earth" (Gen. 13:16; 28:14) shall awake, some to Everlasting Life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore He saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the "dead", and Christ shall give thee Light.

When someone is spiritually sound asleep, they very obviously cannot see the truth, even when it is placed directly in front of them.

Instead, they see everything upside down and backwards, through human eyes, believing what is true is allegedly false, what is irrational is somehow rational, and what is good is evil, etc.

Isaiah 5:20-21
5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for Light, and Light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
5:21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

There is no such thing as faith without works; neither are any of our works good unless they glorify Father.

Matthew 5:16 Let your Light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

When one ignores dozens and dozens of verses that very plainly teach the central role of faith (trust in God), which is physically demonstrated through our actions and therefore inseparable from them, they will remain ignorant of the true (and very obvious) meaning of Scripture. It is in that ignorance that false dichotomies and other irrational imaginings take shape, being allowed to fill one's mind with confusion, even over the simplest principles.

Mark 12:29-31
12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord:
12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength and serve Him ONLY: this [is] the first COMMANDment.
12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other COMMANDment greater than these.

The singular source for ALL Love (true, spiritual Love) is our Creator and heavenly Father (God). It is God's Love that flows through those souls who realize and connect to its source, to others, as evidenced by the good (Godly) actions they take towards their fellow souls. It is impossible to apply "the golden rule", described in Mark 12:31 above, without FIRST loving God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength. And no one truly loves someone they don't know and thus cannot implicitly trust.

It is upon these two great COMMANDments that all of the others hang. So IF someone is obeying these Commandments, they will not break any of the rest of God's Commandments, Statutes and Judgments, found only in His Perfect Law of Liberty (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). And, in doing God's Will, they will see the beauty, and experience the peace and joy that accompany those actions, which will increase their faith, allowing them to climb even higher. Faith, our actions, and the reward or punishment for them (depending on whether those actions are good or evil) make up the rungs of the ladder (or steps of the stairway) that leads back home, to heaven. Every rung is needed, because if any are missing, the ladder isn't stable or usable.

The spiritually blind attempt to divide God into different parts, and turn His Simple Commands into unnecessarily complicated and totally irrational doctrines and traditions, to confuse themselves and others, instead of seeking truth and its inherent simplicity.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is NOT [the author] of CONFUSION, but of peace, as in all communities of the holy people.

The spiritually blind will NEVER understand that it is impossible for God to be anything other than just and fair to ALL concerned at ALL times.

A simple example of this is the fact that no human (with its carnal mind - [urlhttps://jahtruth.net/kofk-free/58rom.htm#8_5]Rom. 8:5-8[/url]) has ever understood what a spiritual-Being (Soul) is, or what it means to be a human+Being, which prevents them from "seeing" the Kingdom of God or understanding that Reincarnation is an Irrefutable FACT.

How else, other than through reincarnation, can the disparities in physical ailments, ethnic backgrounds, living conditions, financial means, and exposure to vastly different levels of love, care, resources and understanding be explained? Some humans die as infants or children, while others live 100 years. There are two (and only two) human genders which are likewise NOT EQUAL (Gen. 3:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; 1 Cor. 11:7-9; 1 Cor. 14:34-35; Eph. 5:22-29; 1 Tim. 2:11-15; Titus 2:4-5; [urlhttps://jahtruth.net/kofk-free/671pet.htm#3_1]1 Peter 3:1-6[/url]). So how are all of these differences explained, if we only live one human life? Is God not just and fair in ALL things?

To think that God—Who is immortal, lives in eternity, is merciful and long-suffering that all might come to repentance—only gives a miserly seventy years (or less) out of the whole of eternity to get it right, or burn (in The Fire – the second death), is not only totally illogical and an insult to God, but further proof of not learning what NEEDS to be learned: the TRUTH about reincarnation. How can giving us seventy years (or less) out of eternity be considered long-suffering? Six thousand years is what God considers long-suffering.

Another, equally simple example is this simple formula for Eternal Life:

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, and Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast sent.

If someone gets to KNOW Father, they will see His Love, Mercy, Patience, Kindness, Reason, Wisdom and Generosity everywhere they go, in everything. They will look for the good in others. They will KNOW that His Love and Promises can NEVER fail. They will similarly see these same attributes in His Eldest/Firstborn Son, Christ the Saviour, and choose to emulate those attributes. And, in doing so, they will experience the peace, love, joy and understanding that go hand-in-hand with those choices.

There is no greater joy than KNOWING what God's Will is in the moment, and being able to act upon His Will in the service of others.

[POI]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #1033]

If this is an attempted response to post 1032, I'm not going to play 'Where's Waldo', in trying to piece together what part of your response may or may not correspond with my questions/responses. Can you please address accordingly?

[POI]

While I await a cohesive response from "A Freeman", from post 1032, below is the answer key, followed by the given answers thus far from believers -- regarding how one is apparently selected for heaven by the Bible God:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

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Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW - No answer
Post 27: Eloi - No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 - answer B)
Post 76: Tam - answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 - answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 - answer D)
Post 321: AFG - answer D)
Post 758: Mea Von H - answer A) or E)?
Post 916: 1213 - answer B)
Post 920: Capbook - answer D)
post 938: armchairscholar - answer D)
post 1014: Marke - answer B)

[1213]

While I await a cohesive response from "A Freeman", from post 1032, below is the answer key, followed by the given answers thus far from believers -- regarding how one is apparently selected for heaven by the Bible God:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

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Provided Christian answers, thus far:
....
Post 916: 1213 - answer B)
...

My answer is unconditional grace, which means God forgives freely. However it does not mean everyone goes, as eternal life is promised only for righteous. Therefore my answer is A, without your () addition, or F.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

I follow the Church Fathers: salvation has always been by grace, not by works. Justification has two senses. The first is how we’re saved from original sin—this is entirely by grace. But that alone doesn’t guarantee heaven. As Jesus said, we must keep the commandments and care for the poor—those are His sheep. The second sense is ongoing: our daily justification. It’s the race we run, allowing Christ to work through us in doing good.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

I follow the Church Fathers: salvation has always been by grace, not by works. Justification has two senses. The first is how we’re saved from original sin—this is entirely by grace. But that alone doesn’t guarantee heaven. As Jesus said, we must keep the commandments and care for the poor—those are His sheep. The second sense is ongoing: our daily justification. It’s the race we run, allowing Christ to work through us in doing good.

In post 321, I had you down for option D): (i.e.):

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

Is this still your answer?