Do Christians apply logic consistently?

[Cmass]

Do Christians engage in the same depth of reasoning, apply the same thinking skills and invite the same level of skepticism when reading claims made by the Bible as they do when reading any other claims that they encounter?

I don't think so.

As I read through page after page of this forum, I watch otherwise highly articulate, logical people (albeit with "faith problems") create more and more elaborate - often bizarre - stories to hold together utterly nonsensical claims. There is no consistency in what they chose to believe and not believe.

One bible story is just a metaphor while another is literal - it all depends upon the debate and who is debating.

It comes across as a silly, fragmented belief system in desperate search for some way to justify it's existence and find evidence that it is real.

If you were to replace "Christianity" or "Jesus" or "God" with any other subject, would you treat it with the same level of "faith"? The claims made by the bible are absolutely astounding to say the least. If I was to make such claims, you would be very skeptical. No?

[Goose]

Thank you Goat for the list. I copied it and will use it.

One point on Christianity that a History professor and a couple of history textbooks made is this. The Resurrection cannot be proven. But that the early Christians believed it is beyond doubt.

Samuel, this is a really good point that is often overlooked by those that discredit Christian claims. One must wonder why the early followers of Christ believed so deeply that many of them were martyred because of their undying belief. Which of course had rippling effects for the next 2000 years. One example in July of 180CE in the town of Scillium in North Afica. Seven men and five women were beheaded by Roman authorities because they would not swear loyalty to the Emperor. Their belief in Chritianity was that strong. By 250CE there were 130 Churches in N. Africa alone. The sceptic will dismiss this of course as religious fervor. But it certainly lends credibility to Christian claims.

[Goat]

Thank you Goat for the list. I copied it and will use it.

One point on Christianity that a History professor and a couple of history textbooks made is this. The Resurrection cannot be proven. But that the early Christians believed it is beyond doubt.

Samuel, this is a really good point that is often overlooked by those that discredit Christian claims. One must wonder why the early followers of Christ believed so deeply that many of them were martyred because of their undying belief. Which of course had rippling effects for the next 2000 years. One example in July of 180CE in the town of Scillium in North Afica. Seven men and five women were beheaded by Roman authorities because they would not swear loyalty to the Emperor. Their belief in Chritianity was that strong. By 250CE there were 130 Churches in N. Africa alone. The sceptic will dismiss this of course as religious fervor. But it certainly lends credibility to Christian claims.

We must also then wonder about the followes of Doe (applebe), who so ferverntly believed in him that they commited suicide so they could hop on a flying saucer that was following the comet Hale Bop. Or all those
followers of Scientology and Sun Yen Moon.

[Lotan]

Samuel, this is a really good point that is often overlooked by those that discredit Christian claims.

How do you know that it's often overlooked? I often hear that it is, but I never see evidence that it is.

One must wonder why the early followers of Christ believed so deeply that many of them were martyred because of their undying belief.

I wonder about Jonestown. I also wonder why apologists continue to repeat this argument when only one of Jesus' contemporaries was alleged to be martyred "because of their undying belief", Stephen. Yes, James was also killed in 62, but there is no evidence that it was because of his beliefs. Later Christians were persecuted, and no doubt they believed, but they weren't there.

Which of course had rippling effects for the next 2000 years.

Of course.

One example in July of 180CE in the town of Scillium in North Afica.

Wow! Only 150 years later, and on another continent! Do you think they were eyewitnesses?

[Goose]

Thank you Goat for the list. I copied it and will use it.

One point on Christianity that a History professor and a couple of history textbooks made is this. The Resurrection cannot be proven. But that the early Christians believed it is beyond doubt.

Samuel, this is a really good point that is often overlooked by those that discredit Christian claims. One must wonder why the early followers of Christ believed so deeply that many of them were martyred because of their undying belief. Which of course had rippling effects for the next 2000 years. One example in July of 180CE in the town of Scillium in North Afica. Seven men and five women were beheaded by Roman authorities because they would not swear loyalty to the Emperor. Their belief in Chritianity was that strong. By 250CE there were 130 Churches in N. Africa alone. The sceptic will dismiss this of course as religious fervor. But it certainly lends credibility to Christian claims.

We must also then wonder about the followes of Doe (applebe), who so ferverntly believed in him that they commited suicide so they could hop on a flying saucer that was following the comet Hale Bop. Or all those
followers of Scientology and Sun Yen Moon.

What's to wonder? Suicide and martyrdom/persecution are different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution

[Goose]

How do you know that it's often overlooked? I often hear that it is, but I never see evidence that it is.

Perhaps overlooked was the wrong word. Denied its significance might have been better.

I wonder about Jonestown.

Let me be of some assistance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution

I also wonder why apologists continue to repeat this argument when only one of Jesus' contemporaries was alleged to be martyred "because of their undying belief", Stephen. Yes, James was also killed in 62, but there is no evidence that it was because of his beliefs. Later Christians were persecuted, and no doubt they believed, but they weren't there.

OK, I'll admit undying belief is a little poetic on my part. I wasn't implying they were there to see Christ. Perhaps I didn't state my point regarding the significance of martydom and persecution clearly enough. Martydom does in now conclude truth in one's belief, only devoutness. Howerver, my point is that one must take notice of the fact the early Christian church was heavily persecuted and still flourished. Martydom merely being the pinnical of that persecution. Despite - the 11 apostles and Paul being reportedly matryrd, the executions in Cilium, executions of another 50 Christians in Lyons a few years earlier, persecutions in 250CE under Decius in which the bishops in Rome, Jeruseleum, and Antioch were martyred, 258CE Cyprian is matryed, in 285-305CE the Great Persecution of Christians under Dioletain and Galarius - the Christian church continued to flourish. This serves to help build a case that the Christian beliefs may have had some validity in as much as they would die for their belief if necessary.

Wow! Only 150 years later, and on another continent! Do you think they were eyewitnesses?

You're not paying attention, my friend! I didn't say these people were eyewitnesses to Christ, did I?

[Metacrock]

Do Christians engage in the same depth of reasoning, apply the same thinking skills and invite the same level of skepticism when reading claims made by the Bible as they do when reading any other claims that they encounter?

I don't think so.

As I read through page after page of this forum, I watch otherwise highly articulate, logical people (albeit with "faith problems") create more and more elaborate - often bizarre - stories to hold together utterly nonsensical claims. There is no consistency in what they chose to believe and not believe.

One bible story is just a metaphor while another is literal - it all depends upon the debate and who is debating.

It comes across as a silly, fragmented belief system in desperate search for some way to justify it's existence and find evidence that it is real.

If you were to replace "Christianity" or "Jesus" or "God" with any other subject, would you treat it with the same level of "faith"? The claims made by the bible are absolutely astounding to say the least. If I was to make such claims, you would be very skeptical. No?

Unfortuantely most christians don't. There are a lot of reasons but maninly I think the major one is that ministers get lazy out of semniary and its easier to mystfy knowlede than to teach logical thinking skills.

Your assertion that the claims of Christianity are "nonsensical" is ignornat and ideological. If you and I could go at it I could put all of that away in one afternoon.

[Lotan]

Perhaps overlooked was the wrong word. Denied its significance might have been better.

Fine. Provide some evidence that that is the case then. I've never seen any serious skeptic avoid the issue.

Let me be of some assistance.

I've never understood why apologists think that dying for beliefs supports the validity of those beliefs. Besides the Romans didn't care about the resurrection, they were mad because Christianity led people away from the Imperial cult and was in other ways 'subversive' (eg. egalitarianism).

Howerver, my point is that one must take notice of the fact the early Christian church was heavily persecuted and still flourished.

That shows only that it was popular, not that it was based on fact.

Despite - the 11 apostles and Paul being reportedly matryrd...

Yes, reportedly. Most accounts of the apostles martyrdom come from 2nd century legends. Paul was a troublemaker who's luck ran out, and Peter was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and got in the way of Nero's renovation plans. The rest of your list are too late to include alleged eyewitnesses.

This serves to help build a case that the Christian beliefs may have had some validity in as much as they would die for their belief if necessary.

Of course they had "some validity"; "Love thy neighbor as thyself" is valid. Ideas like "the meek shall inherit the earth" would undoubtedly been popular to oppressed Roman peasants. None of that shows that Jesus resurrescted though.

You're not paying attention, my friend! I didn't say these people were eyewitnesses to Christ, did I?

I apologize. I was just trying to make a point (facetiously) that these people had no basis for their beliefs beyond what they had been told.

[Metacrock]

I've never understood why apologists think that dying for beliefs supports the validity of those beliefs.

the assumption is no one die for a storyt hey knew to be a lie. That argument is logical, but of limited use.

[Lotan]

the assumption is no one die for a storyt hey knew to be a lie. That argument is logical, but of limited use.

Especially when any alleged eyewitnesses are long gone. This argument supports the validity of fundamentalist Islam well enough. The 9/11 hijackers apparently believed.

[Goat]

Thank you Goat for the list. I copied it and will use it.

One point on Christianity that a History professor and a couple of history textbooks made is this. The Resurrection cannot be proven. But that the early Christians believed it is beyond doubt.

Samuel, this is a really good point that is often overlooked by those that discredit Christian claims. One must wonder why the early followers of Christ believed so deeply that many of them were martyred because of their undying belief. Which of course had rippling effects for the next 2000 years. One example in July of 180CE in the town of Scillium in North Afica. Seven men and five women were beheaded by Roman authorities because they would not swear loyalty to the Emperor. Their belief in Chritianity was that strong. By 250CE there were 130 Churches in N. Africa alone. The sceptic will dismiss this of course as religious fervor. But it certainly lends credibility to Christian claims.

We must also then wonder about the followes of Doe (applebe), who so ferverntly believed in him that they commited suicide so they could hop on a flying saucer that was following the comet Hale Bop. Or all those
followers of Scientology and Sun Yen Moon.

What's to wonder? Suicide and martyrdom/persecution are different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution

But in the examples i have shown, it was the belief of the person that propelled them to suffer through it.