According to the tales, Jesus gave up a weekend.

[Zzyzx]

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According to the tales, Jesus gave up a weekend. Whats the big deal?

What is the sacrifice in a supposedly eternal being giving up a weekend being dead?

An 'omnipotent god' (or part thereof, or whatever is claimed) would presumably know that the 'death' was extremely temporary -- just a few hours (less than 48 according to the tale).

[JehovahsWitness]

I didnt say Jesus asked for anything. I said he expected it. That is clear by his words: The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me.

I don't see anything in the those words or indeed the account to indicate Jesus expected to be anointed with expensive oil. Forgive my reference to the dictionary meaning of the words used* but to expect means "to regard (something) as likely to happen" so implicit in the word expect is that it is a idea one holds about a future event (one cannot expect something while it's happening).

* No infringement of forum rules intended



DID JESUS EXPECT MARY'S GESTURE?

• We dont have enough information about Jesus words and actions prior to the event conclude he "expected" such an expensive gesture. It was customary to have ones feet washed at the time and the use of oils was not unusual, so there is no reason for Jesus not to expect the usual gestures of hospitality, but there is nothing to indicate he expected such expensive oils since this would have been most unusual to say the least. Thats not to say Jesus couldnt possibly have expected the gesture. Maybe Mary had indicated her intentions, maybe he read her heart and knew, maybe she'd told her brother and he'd told Jesus, we just dont know but what we can know is, scripturally, if he did expect the gift, he would still have done nothing wrong.
  
  
  Expecting to be treated well doesn't equate to desiring others be treated badly. Expecting an expensive gift doesn't mean behaving in a callous, disdainful, contemptuous way towards those who don't hold such expectations. Expecting an expensive gift doesn't even necessarily mean one believes one is superior to others, the bible speaks of the notion of undeserved kindness and expecting an expensive gift doesn't mean demanding or behaving in a way that indicates anything less would be displeasing. Jesus was unfailingly modest, kind, discrete, humble and unassuming. If he did know beforehand what Mary was going to do, there is little doubt those expectations did NOT effected his behaviour in a negative way.

CONCLUSION Jesus may or may not have expected Mary's gesture, we don't have enough information to say for sure. What we do know is that there is nothing in scripture that indicates such expectations, if he had them, would have been bad or have effected his attitude or treatment of others negatively.

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 90#p980490

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 83#p980183

Did Jesus stipulate that all his followers should renounce ownership of all material possessions?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 20#p835720

Did Jesus expect to be lavished with expensive gifts ? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=981198#p981198

[JehovahsWitness]

Perhaps it escaped notice that this is a DEBATE site -- not a podium for preaching ones beliefs and proselytizing with statements from writers of religious propaganda.

No, that has escaped my notice, thank you. As our dear Marco pointed out when speaking of an entirely different but I feel not entirely unrelated comment ...

The rules of the forum make this interesting addendum unnecessary.

Giving up a weekend does not seem like a great sacrifice for a supposed 'eternal' supernatural entity.

I have already stated clearly what I believe on this question, provided biblical evidences as to why I believe as I do and linked to my sources where appropriate. If you see a problem in any of that please do not hesitate to let me know.

JW


NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[Zzyzx]

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I have already stated clearly what I believe on this question, provided biblical evidences as to why I believe as I do and linked to my sources where appropriate. If you see a problem in any of that please do not hesitate to let me know.

Why would a rational person 'provide biblical evidence' in debate with people who they KNOW do not accept the Bible as truthful or accurate?

Is it rational to cite biblical tales in a debate sub-forum that clearly states in Guidelines that the Bible is not considered authoritative or proof of truth?

Would a rational person cite Koran references as evidence of truth when debating Christians?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 133 by Zzyzx]

Firstly, I'm not here to debate beliefs nor do I expect people to attempt to debate mine. When I make faith statements I clearly mark them as such so readers know on what I base my worldview. Readers are free to disregard them should they so wish. On the occasions when the debate question invites posters to explain or defend their beliefs, I use the bible to support mine .

Why would a rational person 'provide biblical evidence' in debate with people who they KNOW do not accept the Bible as truthful or accurate?

I do not know who does or does not accept the Bible as truthful or accurate nor do I care. I refer to the bible, for the same reason atheists do, because the bible is often the source text of the debate question. I present my reasoning on its content without affirming that content be true, as do you or any other poster. In short, I am arguing for or against what is written in the bible and if you read my posts carefully you will note I never expound the bible as true in anything but my faith statements (which can be taken or rejected for what they are, pure statements of faith*).

* I am unaware of any prohibition on stating what one personally believes on any topic.

If an atheist or anyone else can cite the bible as evidence it is inaccurate, contradictory and presents us with characters like Jesus as a greedy, immoral, mother-hating fraud, pray tell why can I not refer to the same bible to argue the contrary?

Is it rational to cite biblical tales in a debate sub-forum that clearly states in Guidelines that the Bible is not considered authoritative or proof of truth?

the Bible can be used ONLY to show what the bible says and what Christianity says. It cannot be used to prove that a statement or story is true.

In by FAR the majority of my posts I say "biblically" as in "as reported/written" in the bible. I do not indicate whether said report is TRUE or not. I may occasionally state my personal belief that it is, but this is never presented as part of my argumentation. If you or anyone feels I have infringed on forum guidelines I invite them to report me, otherwise I expect the same right to post my opinions, thoughts, ideas, argumentation, and yes beliefs as anyone else. And reserve the right to cite or refer to scripture as frequently as you or any atheist does.


JW

[ttruscott]

You made a claim and did not back it up. It's not the atheists who claim that Jesus suffered more than anyone else every has when he died on the cross. Why would an atheist claim that?

Of course they wouldn't. This is a claim made by Chrisitans. Do you dispute that?

I never claimed He must suffer worse than any other nor have I heard that claim in a Church. I do not know Warnke nor any others...

I, in fact, wrote:

And there is NO criteria that He must suffer more than anyone else or for longer or for any other strawman criteria made up to denigrate His work.

You have obviously mixed me up with someone else or...

[ttruscott]

Why do Christians continually try to justify the horrors of the bible god?

Funny - I usually see: Why do non-Christians continually deny the justice of GOD's judgement against criminally evil people???

[Tcg]

Why do Christians continually try to justify the horrors of the bible god?

Funny - I usually see: Why do non-Christians continually deny the justice of GOD's judgement against criminally evil people???

Probably because we are aware of stories that prove God practices favoritism not justice.

David violates another man's wife and has her husband killed so he can have her for his own. David gets off scot free because he is the King. Who pays? The child who had no choice but to be born.

God has all the firstborn Egyptians slaughtered. Had they done anything wrong? Of course not, this was done to punish Pharaoh. Once again, the innocent pay the price. Given that they are non-Israelites, God is not concerned.

Let's not forget the flood. Untold numbers of innocent humans and animals are killed because God's creation was flawed. Of course God's not going to punish himself. Yet again, the innocent pay.

Let's not forget the untold number of genocides committed so that Israel could possess the promised land. Why? God favored the Israelites over the non-Israelites.

Even the rules of slavery favor the Israelites. They couldn't be kept as lifelong slaves, while non-Israelites could be owned as permanent property.

This just scratches the surface. Favoritism is God's standard, not justice.


Tcg

[Clownboat]

Why do Christians continually try to justify the horrors of the bible god?

Funny - I usually see: Why do non-Christians continually deny the justice of GOD's judgement against criminally evil people???

Which people are criminally evil and how do we know?
I ask because I want to level some of a God's justice at them. Let me at um!

Now I just need to decide if I should drown them or kill their first born...

[ttruscott]

I ask because I want to level some of a God's justice at them. Let me at um!

You are not allowed; you are not a properly authorized nor constituted judge. As a joke against the rule of law , it is tasteless.

[Clownboat]

I ask because I want to level some of a God's justice at them. Let me at um!

You are not allowed; you are not a properly authorized nor constituted judge. As a joke against the rule of law , it is tasteless.

I am authorized. 'I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.'

The question that was posed to you that you failed to respond to was:
"Which people are criminally evil and how do we know?"

Having a way to tell which humans are criminally evil would be invaluable. Please do not keep this method from your fellow humans.

No need to debate my sense of humor. I'm quite funny after all, just ask me.