According to the tales, Jesus gave up a weekend.

[Zzyzx]

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According to the tales, Jesus gave up a weekend. What’s the big deal?

What is the ‘sacrifice’ in a supposedly eternal being giving up a weekend being ‘dead’?

An 'omnipotent god' (or part thereof, or whatever is claimed) would presumably know that the 'death' was extremely temporary -- just a few hours (less than 48 according to the tale).

[OnceConvinced]

Are you saying that Jesus was not ...invited to feasts and parties by wealthy people? That he was not adored by people and treated like a celebrity? ...Jesus set the standard for double standards.

Are you suggesting any of these things violated a law or principle he taught? If so, which one(s)? If not, how can he be accused of hypocrisy?

I wasn't talking about him violating any laws or principals. If you look at my earlier posts I was responding to 1213's claim that there was no earthly benefits in Luke making up stories when promoting Christianity. He then brought up Jesus in a similar argument. What did Jesus have to gain when he was so brutatlly killed?

I then brought out these points. Earthly benefits that Jesus gained during his life. Benefits he gained from his ministry. That is the reason I bring up the tax collectors. He clearly gained great benefits from being a celebrity.

We know that he was invited to the odd wedding feast ....

Attending the occaasional wedding, O the shock the horror!!

It seems you definitely didn't read my earlier posts and are misinterpreting my point here. The point is he got invited to lavish feasts due to the fact he was a celebrity. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. Just that he gained benefits. Just like travelling evangelists do today.

So there is a lot to gain for people like Luke and Jesus promoting their religion and being seen as great teachers, healers etc.

....and he did get to hang out with wealthy tax collectors, living it up.

Emphasis MINE

You forgot prostitutes, Jesus also associated with prostitutes and varous people of ill repute for sure.

Actually no I didn't. I didn't use the word prostitutes, but I did point out women, which included the prostitutes, but I didn't want to suggest that Jesus was paying for sex. On the contrary. Women could have been throwing themselves at him. In private anyway. Jesus would have had huge sex appeal especially if it was true he was the son of God.

See my post 66

Being a respected Christian leader he probably had a lot of women vying for his attention. It's very common in churches. Men who appear to be super spiritual and knowledeable of the bible get the chicks.

Now, by "living it up" are you suggesting Jesus enjoyed life with a balanced outlook on the good things it had to offer and did not segregate himself from those that might need his help, Or are you suggesting Jesus condoned, profited and engaged in immoral or corrupt behaviour ?


If the latter, evidence please

I am saying that he got lots of benefits from being a celebrity. He was treated like royalty on a regular basis. Right from the day he was born he was lavished with expensive gifts and he expected them (see the story of the woman who spilled the alabastar perfume on him).

He recieved a lot of earthy benefits, so people like himself and Luke had good reason to promote their religions so thus would have had motivation to lie or exagerate things. They would have had good reason to try to con people.

Not saying they were con-artists. Just saying they had the motivation there, motivation that 1213 claims would not be there.

[OnceConvinced]

Just look at the story of the woman who poured very expensive perfume on Jesus. He quite clearly put hmself above the poor. He clearly saw himself as more worthy of lavish attention and gifts.

What is hypocritical in stating the truth? Jesus *is* above the poor. He is also above the rich. Indeed apart from Jehovah (YHWH) Jesus is better than any individual than has ever lived and most worthy of every lavish gift and he knew it! What he did not do is ...

Maybe only if he was the son of god, But what if he was just a normal human being trying to con people?

The thing is it's still seems hyprocritical to me when you're telling people to give up their wealth to the poor yet take benefits for yourself.

All those wealthy church pastors taking in huge salaries. Wouldn't you consider them hypocritical?

Why would Jesus get a free pass just because he's the son of God? He was supposed to be on the earth setting an example.

• ask for lavish gifts (or anything) in return for his services,

Most evangelists don't do that either. That doesn't mean they don't get showered with them. Cash donations are common.

Those benefits could have well encouraged him to keep on teaching.

[*] make his superiority the central theme of his teaching

Church leaders and evangelists don't usually do that either, but their followers certainly pop them up on pedistals. Why would they ever want to climb down?

[*] amass material wealth and property through his ministry

We have no way of knowing just how much wealth Jesus had accumulated before his death. I wonder what happened to the gold the three so-called wise men gave him?

[*] treat the poor or the misfortunate with contempt[/list]
Jesus never taught giving or accepting whether little or much to him (or anyone) is a sin so he cannot be accused of hypocrisy for accepting anything.

His words kind of condemn him there.

"The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me."

This is again simply a statement of truth. No human society has or will ever successfully eliminate poverty. Jesus knew he would be dead before the end of the week.

Sorry, but you are presuming he was the son of god and not a con man. I don't presume he's the son of god.

If he was a con man then he had good reason to con people. He gained many earthly benefits. He expected them too. That is quite clear by that scripture.

Now if you are reading more into the above than I have outlined, maybe you can find words (rather than the huffing, and puffing of the "outrage that knows no name"...) to express why you see hypocrisy in Jesus words or actions.

Who is doing the huffing and puffing?

I can't help it if you can't see the hypocrisy, even for a guy who believed he was the son of God. Jesus supposedly came to this earth to be one of us. To be a sacrifice for our sins. Not to be lavished with gifts. If he was an humble and as genuine as he claims to be he wouldn't have made that horrendous statement he made about the poor.

What he said was far from humble, surely?

[Zzyzx]

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Was Jesus the celebrity pastor of his day -- or might he have been just another run-of-the-mill wandering preacher and/or wannabe messiah?

[OnceConvinced]

The perfume belonged to her; she was free to do with it as she wished. She did not use it on herself; she used it on Christ, out of love for Him. For this, Judas (a disciple) rebuked her.

I wonder what benefits she was trying to buy? (and no I'm not insinuating anything sexual)

Christ defended her against that unjust rebuke. She had done a beautiful thing - that is simply the truth. She did not deserve to be rebuked or shamed for her beautiful deed

My issue is not the giving of the gift or the beauty of it. The problem is that he clearly expected this attention. And the statement he made is appalling. To say the poor will always be there.

You, like JW are presuming Jesus was really what he claimed to be. But what if he wasn't? What if he was a con man cruising along taking advantage of all the attention and gifts? Would that not be an incentive to continue conning people?

[OnceConvinced]

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Was Jesus the celebrity pastor of his day -- or might he have been just another run-of-the-mill wandering preacher and/or wannabe messiah?

Well when you get throngs of people welcoming you into the city with olive branches, I think that makes you a celebrity.

I guess it depends on where he went. Apparently he wasn't such a great celebrity in Nazereth and didn't do many wonders there. I'm guessing its becasue the people knew he wasn't all he was cracked up to be. Perhaps his reputation there preceded him?

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 95 by OnceConvinced]

Perhaps it takes practice to achieve celebrity status. After he caught on to the preaching gig seeing John in action, it might have taken Jesus a few months to perfect his technique.

Of course his family and home town would have been a bit difficult to convince that he had become the son of god. Joseph Smith encountered the same problem. Locals knew he was a fraud.

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you saying that Jesus was not ...invited to feasts and parties by wealthy people? That he was not adored by people and treated like a celebrity? ...Jesus set the standard for double standards.

Are you suggesting any of these things violated a law or principle he taught? If so, which one(s)? If not, how can he be accused of hypocrisy?

I wasn't talking about him violating any laws or principals.

So what are you reproaching Jesus for? Being handsome? Famous? Perhaps you can put aside the innuendo and state your case. If your point is: that Jesus actually is not reported to have done nothing wrong or hypocritical but he could have, then thank you for stating the obvious. Yes, I could run over my neighbours dog, because I have a car....I haven't!





JW

[JehovahsWitness]

JESUS BENEFITED

We know that he was invited to the odd wedding feast ....

Attending the occaasional wedding, O the shock the horror!!

....I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that.

Ok so your point here is to say he did something that wasnt wrong, got it! It might save time not to list the things Jesus did that were not reprehensible or contrary to his own teachings.

He clearly gained great benefits from being a celebrity.

Could you list some of these "great benefits" ?

... he gained benefits. .

Emphasis MINE

If by "benefits" you mean : "something that produces good or helpful results or effects or that promotes well-being" then I'm sure we both agree that's fine. So again, that would mean you are just pointing out something that is more than acceptable, with no implication of hypocrisy.

If by benefits you mean he came away with payment, salary or financial help for attending a wedding then I think its only fair you provide some textual evidence. In general wedding guests give the bride and groom something and one the one occassions recorded Jesus performed a service with absolutely no mention or suggestion of payment.

If by benefits you are suggesting he was what we in modern day English call "networking" making contacts which may prove useful n the future, again what's wrong with that? If by "useful" you mean financially profitable with the aim of amassing rich, it is reasonable to ask for evidence that was his aim.




JW

[marco]

He clearly gained great benefits from being a celebrity.

Could you list some of these "great benefits" ?

Praise, flattery, adoration - all welcome to those as want them. Free food and drink - we hear nothing of his carpentry income, only his chat. And expensive oil lavished on him. He overplayed his celebrity and suffered the consequences of his hubris.

[JehovahsWitness]

Praise, flattery, adoration - all welcome to those as want them.

Are you insinuating that Jesus behaved or spoke in a manner that sought an inordinate and inappropriate amount of praise for himself or that he bowed to flattery perhaps giving favours or special attention to those that flattered his ego?

Free food and drink - we hear nothing of his carpentry income, only his chat. And expensive oil lavished on him.

Are you implying there is anything wrong with any of the above? If so what?

He overplayed his celebrity and suffered the consequences of his hubris.

What do you mean by "overplayed"?* can you clarify please?








* NOTE Please note this is not an invitation for my intelligence to be mocked or my master of English to be called into question, it is a simple request for more information so that I can provide a reasonable response.