How do I determine what God requires of me?

[McCulloch]

I have posted what I think is the single most important issue to debate.

To me, the second most important issue is this. If there is a God, how do I determine what God requires of me? If your answer involves something that is from human agency, a book or an organization, then the question remains, "How do I know that the book's authors or the organization's leaders authoritatively speak for God?"

How do I determine what God requires of me?

[OpenedUp]

What happens when I can't find answers? I am sorry, my belief is really hurting me right now and I am not sure of what I know.

I feel like I'm in the same boat as you, but I'm always encouraged when I realize that many of the greatest characters of the bible were often in the same boat as well. When reading through psalms, I often hear David crying out simply to know God and to learn from him and recieve guidance. He cries out to feel God's presence, many many times. It's a struggle trying to connect with God when we feel nothing, but know that you are not alone in these feelings. My suggestion is to simply pray to God for comfort and happiness, and pray to God to know Him better. There's no shame in being bold and asking God to come into your life more.

In my younger years, that's exactly what I, personally, tried to do.

In the end, it was hard to have faith in nothingness.

[olavisjo]

If an evangelist speaks to me s/he is NOT speaking to a “beggar” in any sense of the word and is NOT speaking to someone who is in search of “bread”. That is someone else’s attempt to project their ideas upon others.

I can relate, that is exactly how I felt when I was in your situation.

To me, the “selling” and promotion and advertising of religion is very pronounced in our culture. I happen to live in the Bible Belt of southeastern United States, known for its religious orientation. I KNOW whereof I speak. Don’t try to tell me that religion isn’t being SOLD on large scale.

I am not going to tell you that religion is not being sold on a large scale, I just said...

I can understand if you think that Christians are trying to sell you something. And I am sure that some are...

There are ministries like Joel Osteen, who are selling a 'prosperity gospel' that I have questions about, but I do not find it my place to judge his work. So I leave it alone, if it is of God it will produce fruit, if it is not of God it will go away, but either way God will make some use of it.

What changed to cause you to cease being a rational thinker?

What did you become when you rejected being a rational thinker?

I found that rational thinking did not give me power to control my own behavior. I knew what I should do, I just did not do it, rater I did destructive things instead. Things that the bible calls sin.
My thinking is now revelation oriented, the revelation of God's word in the bible, life circumstances and direct insertion of knowledge into my brain by God. I still make use of the rational mind, especially at work, but I am no longer controlled by it.

Today I am eternally grateful to the "foolish preaching" that these people gave to me when I was still lost.

What were you lost FROM? Do you realize that others who are rational thinkers do not consider themselves “lost” or in need?

The need appears to be for a good “feeling” and assurances regarding an “afterlife”.

I was a sinner (I still am, but I have received Jesus for the remission of sin) and one of the symptoms of sin is the inability to see yourself as a sinner, and until you can see that in yourself, you will not even feel a need to find a way out of it.

I do not accept your claim that I will forgive you for hounding me with “this gospel”. You have NO claim to truth any more than the worshipers of any other gods – which is to say, none at all.

Your feeling of being compelled to hound people with your “gospel” is discourteous and is disrespectful of the convictions and beliefs of others. EVERY other belief system or lack thereof is EQUAL to yours. Do you believe that your religion is superior to the religions of others – or that you are compelled to “save” them from their own beliefs and preferences? Are you omniscient?

If you wake up one day knowing that your sins are forgiven and you are going to live forever with God in paradise because of this gospel, I think that you may find it in your heart to forgive me. This is the outcome that I am going to bet my life on.

The irony is that God endowed you with so much gray matter, that it has become a stumbling block for you to find him, but with God all things are possible.

I do not accept that any god “endowed [me] with so much gray matter”. Since you use that assumption in debate, kindly substantiate the claim that gods are involved in anyone's "gray matter".

Are you saying that having “gray matter” hinders a person from finding gods? If so, are gods suitable only for those who are deficient in “gray matter”? Are you suggesting that one should be stupid to be “saved”?

Should a person set aside their “gray matter” or intelligence, or knowledge, or judgment, or discernment, or experience, or reasoning in order to “find god”? Does the god you promote recruit unintelligent worshipers?

Does the god you promote recruit unintelligent worshipers?

Apparently so:

For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, ...

Thank you, McCulloch, for reading the scripture.

Quoting scripture to non-theists is blowing into the wind.

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

[Zzyzx]

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What did you become when you rejected being a rational thinker?

I found that rational thinking did not give me power to control my own behavior. I knew what I should do, I just did not do it, rater I did destructive things instead. Things that the bible calls sin.

My thinking is now revelation oriented, the revelation of God's word in the bible, life circumstances and direct insertion of knowledge into my brain by God. I still make use of the rational mind, especially at work, but I am no longer controlled by it.

I presume that you are very sincere in what you believe and say.

So am I.

I do not have a problem with being unable to control my behavior and therefore do not seek outside assistance. However, I can understand why an individual with destructive behavior patterns might require help from somewhere. Some evidently find such help in religion, others in various other directions including psychotherapy, hypnosis and medication.

Regarding beliefs in general: Your beliefs are no more or less valid than my convictions. Following religions does not impart truth or accuracy – nor does rejection of religion.

My convictions differ from theistic beliefs in that I do not purport to know what is best for anyone other than myself and do not attempt to predict the future for others. I make no claims to know about supernatural beings or events. I realize that my opinions and conclusions are MINE and are not binding upon others. Most important, I do not attempt to advise others what paths to follow (but rather, encourage them to make their own decisions).

Theists often seem of the opinion that they possess “inside information” from “super-human beings” of one sort or another AND that they know what is best for others. Their positions are based on emotions (“feelings”) of a personal nature. Claims of supernaturalism are promoted to others without ability to verify what is offered is true or is “the word of god” as claimed. Stories of nature-defying events told as true and literal cannot be verified.

I could pontificate or predict that “one day you will regain your senses and again rely upon yourself and rational thought rather than supernaturalism” – HOWEVER, I do not engage in such speculation and do not attempt to predict the future. And, I do not make threats of damnation as are often characteristic of Theistic sales tactics.

[Zzyzx]

What happens when I can't find answers? I am sorry, my belief is really hurting me right now and I am not sure of what I know.

Alexiarose,

The difficulties you are experiencing represent conflicts between what you WANT to believe and what you KNOW about the real world you inhabit.

In evaluating the responses to your posts notice the difference between Theist and Non-Theist presentations. Theist responses tend to be emotionally based reassurances that their beliefs and their favorite gods offer “salvation” and “hope”. Non-Theist responses tend to encourage you to think and decide on your own based in reason and real life experience rather than hoping or praying for external guidance.

Life is NOT “fair” and being responsible for our own decisions and our own path in life is not always easy or pleasant. It is far simpler to “just put your life in the hands of god” and to accept whatever happens as “his will” or “what was intended”. But, there is NO assurance that “whatever happens” is influenced by invisible super beings. Those who preach such things CANNOT demonstrate that gods interfere with human lives.

They base their claims upon writings by people who lived thousands of years ago when supernaturalism and superstition were more commonly used to “explain” whatever was unknown. Ignorance of nature allowed people to believe common tales of the era such as divine impregnation (virgin birth), following a star, walking on water, coming back from the dead, etc.

Being ignorant of the Earth and the universe led people to make stories about the Earth being the center of the universe or the Earth stopping rotation (“sun stood still”). Likewise, ignorance of the size and configuration of the Earth led to stories about a worldwide flood “to the tops of mountains” and tales of a “high mountain from which all the kingdoms of the Earth” could be seen (obviously impossible on a spherical body).

Perhaps there is an omniscient, omnipotent, infinite “creator”. If so, such a thing / being is far beyond the perception and understanding of humans. Those who claim to speak for a “creator” are misguided or lying. When asked for evidence that they represent or understand such things, they bring out dogma or documents that make other claims – but which do NOT show any evidence of actual existence of or communication with a “supreme being”.

Notice that when you ask for evidence you are told to study or pray and are NOT given any evidence. Or, you are directed to an unknown (such as the origin of life) and told that unless there is a scientific explanation right now, that must be the work of their gods.

Notice also that thousands of different “gods” have been loved, feared and worshiped by humans and that there are several that are popular currently. What ALL gods have in common is a complete lack of evidence of existence. Although all gods are equally devoid of proof, those who worship gods are often willing to kill or die “in the name of god”.

[alexiarose]

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What happens when I can't find answers? I am sorry, my belief is really hurting me right now and I am not sure of what I know.

Eventually we usually find answers -- perhaps not the ones we thought we would find, and perhaps not in places we expected to find them.

It might be wise to take a break from these debates for a time because they can be very challenging and confrontational. Some of us have thick calluses from life and combat but you do not.

Is there a place that you can surround yourself with peace and beauty? Do you have friends at the UU that can offer support without being judgmental, confrontational or agenda-driven?

I have to learn it sooner or later. Mom says I need thicker skin and she is right. Running away from my fears won't help. So I have to face them head on. I am meeting with Danny from the UU in Pensacola on Tuesday. He is sort of like you. I

I surround myself with peace and beauty with mom and God.

[alexiarose]

What happens when I can't find answers? I am sorry, my belief is really hurting me right now and I am not sure of what I know.

It's hard to interject in the middle of something without all the details. But If your above comment is real..I would say walk away. If God is real to you, He will find you. If it's all just "belief" ........pitch your Bible in the trash and take a break.

Just abandon God?

[Goat]

What happens when I can't find answers? I am sorry, my belief is really hurting me right now and I am not sure of what I know.

It's hard to interject in the middle of something without all the details. But If your above comment is real..I would say walk away. If God is real to you, He will find you. If it's all just "belief" ........pitch your Bible in the trash and take a break.

Just abandon God?

Knowing Twobits, he is not suggesting that. The bible is not the only path to God.

[achilles12604]

Ok. I have read the last few pages. And I certainly have a lot of thoughts.

Hmm . . . where to start . . . .



I think I will start HERE and HERE.


I don't want people to confused my slightly altered beliefs with those of others who also share the title Christian.

Now with my beliefs in mind I would like to first address the OP. Then I will answer some of the questions being posed as best as my insufficient abilities will allow.

You want an answer about what God wants from you? I will give you a Talisman .

"I will give you a talisman. Whenever you are in doubt, or when the self becomes too much with you, apply the following test. Recall the face of the poorest and the weakest man [woman] whom you may have seen, and ask yourself, if the step you contemplate is going to be of any use to him [her]. Will he [she] gain anything by it? Will it restore him [her] to a control over his [her] own life and destiny? In other words, will it lead to swaraj [freedom] for the hungry and spiritually starving millions?
Then you will find your doubts and your self melt away."

- One of the last notes left behind by Gandhi in 1948, expressing his deepest social thought.

I think that these words are ones that Jesus would approve of. I think that if Muhammad was correct about Allah being a loving God, that he would approve. I know the Hindu's approve as well as the Buddhists. I think that the Great Spirit would approve. Any God denoted as loving or kind would have little to disagree with. And I think that if you follow this guide in your daily life, you will have a heart for God, no matter which God it is.

I also think that if God really cares about mankind, he is willing to reach out to us on our levels. In other words, I do not think that simply because a Native American refuses to accept Christianity (which was offered with sickness and violence on the side) he is doomed to destruction. This really doesn’t make much sense to me. And I have found that in Christianity at least, the concept of salvation, as taught by Jesus is a matter of the heart. Paul had a tendency to be wrapped up in traditions and it is after Paul that Christianity becomes exclusive. Some people refer to Jesus saying the only ones saved come through him. I agree with this and if you read my beliefs on salvation in detail you can see that I do not contradict myself in this area.

My beliefs on salvation can be found
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=7421
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=7104
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=5570

My evidence for these beliefs are also found in these threads. Please don’t ask me to go over all of it again as I have several hundred pages of typing now about my salvation beliefs and why. If you want to know why, just go look.


Now, with my beliefs out on the table, allow me to interject a couple comments about conversations which have already begun. Of course feel free to rip into them if you see fit.

Hello undeterred. I am going to try to answer this now without being so not nice.

in her heart, (Mom) is doing exactly as scriptures says.

The evil one could be your doubt and skepticism.

Yes, I realize I contradict myself from my earlier post about mom, but I know what is in moms heart. I don't know what is in yours...

Contradict away... But don't expect us to believe that your beliefs are deep seated if you contradict yourself.

I explained my contradiction quite adequately IMO. I don't know what is in your heart.

Your self-contradiction, which has not been explained, seems to be that there is a straightforward explanation for God not revealing himself to McCulloch, and it's pretty much the only explanation, but it doesn't apply to your mother.

Here was my self-contradiction to mom:

I think that God hasn't abandoned them, but He works in His own time in His own way. I have to trust that there is a reason He hasn't reached their hearts yet. Or perhaps He has, they just don't recognize it. I know moms heart is good. She shows it at work and home and with her friends. I know how much she hurt when she thought she was rejected and I don't blame her for joining the other side, though I am going to try to fight like heck now that I am home to prevent it, but I think that in her heart, she is doing exactly as scriptures says.

Now, I said I don't know what is in McCullochs heart, so I don't know if God has revealed Himself to him or not. I do know what is in my moms heart and that despite her not accepting God, she does follow His laws, just not the traditional way. I have to trust that there is a reason He hasn't made Himself known to her, or that maybe He has and she doesn't recognize it. This is just as possible for McCulloch, but without knowing him like I know mom, I can't really say for sure. However, you were right in earlier threads, I can't support this with scripture or evidence. Only a belief which may or may not be right. I have to trust that God has a reason and I may not understand it, but I should still give Him the benefit of the doubt.
That was my original thought. But since then, I have found that maybe I am not quite as on solid ground in my belief as I thought so what I just wrote could be pointless if I don't find some comfort in it soon. I know God works in His time, but in this, I ask that He does His best to work in mine because I need to know that some of it is possible for my faith to stop wavering.

You will notice that my beliefs, which again I feel are well founded in scripture, do not present a problem. This is because they are not dependent upon the traditional views of scripture. I find that the traditional views are flawed. Not only do they not match up with what the bible actually says (WOW – The church doesn’t necessarily teach what the bible does? Say it ain’t so.) but they also can not be married with a caring God. They simply don’t make sense.

Now if the traditional views are flaws, then Alexiarose, you no longer have a problem. If your mother isn’t adhering to the traditional views of the church . . . so what? Jesus himself had more issues with the so called established church because they were dead wrong about what their own books actually said. I think this problem is common today as well.

Along these same lines, I noticed other comments made in the thread.

I know mom has doubt and skepticism. I don't think it necessarily means that her search hasn't been open and honest. She is looking for something that is absolute evidence of God and I am not sure that is possible even without doubt and skepticism, so I guess I can't say that this may be why mom hasn't found Him. But again, I am finding my ground really shaky right now and am not entirely sure of myself or my belief since then. I would like to believe that she has, she just doesn't realize it, but to say so is pure speculation and may be false hope.

Look at me. I have more doubt and skepticism than some of the non-theists here. Doubt and skepticism are both natural and expected. Jesus doesn’t punish for having doubts. Look at the sermon on the mount.

The Beatitudes
1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Ok point out to me where Jesus says blessed are those who accept without evidence, and doomed are those who question. Read it. Who is blessed?
Are people who call themselves Christians blessed?
Are people who call Jesus Lord Blessed?
No. The blessings associated with this list are all of the HEART.
Look at doubting Thomas. Was he condemned by Jesus? Nope. He was accepted and even allowed to test him once the time came.
Doubting, as far as Jesus taught, has NOTHING to do with salvation. God gave you a brain. Do you really think that he intended for it not to be USED?

Alexiarose,

The difficulties you are experiencing represent conflicts between what you WANT to believe and what you KNOW about the real world you inhabit.

I don’t necessarily agree here ZZ. I think her difficulty, judging on her own writings, is that there is a conflict between what she WANTS to believe and what she is TOLD to believe. Note the numerous places where she refers to the scriptures.

1) The scriptures are followed by mom
2) The scriptures aren’t clear
3) I can't support this with scripture or evidence

There in lies the conflict and the reason why is because the words of Jesus are not the words of the church. I have provided links above where I closely read the actual words of Jesus. What he says, is NOT what the church teaches.


Bottom line,

1) I believe in God and I think he is a God who cares
2) I think that God reaches out to men and women where they are. Therefore the various religions of the world could very well be sent by God to that region for the people there.
3) I think that salvation is a matter of the heart and I think that this view is MORE scripturally supported than the opposing views.

Now I find it interesting that you would look at the UU. I personally don’t object to the UU. But something that you may not have considered . . . Would Jesus approve of the UU? Was Jesus the first humanist of his time?

I think the answer, is yes. Just as I think Jesus would be ok with the peaceful teachings of Siddhartha and the natural peace of the Great Spirit. The words of Jesus indicate a love which is unknown in today’s age. And it is this love, which the church has lost. The result are people who are honestly searching, like you mom, but who find a huge problem between the words of the church, and the teachings of Jesus.

If someone is searching and finds hypocrisy and wrong teachings, they are liable to have a hard time finding truth past all the junk in the way. The traditions of men mean NOTHING! Jesus hated the traditions of men. The early church however loved them and wrote them right back in, thus mucking up the whole system in my opinion.

Do away with the traditions of the church. Throw out the teachings of the church. And start over with JUST the words of Jesus. And then tell me you are still confused about God’s opinion of what he wants from man. Or if you like, research the Great Spirit of the Native Americans. Seek out what you think Vishnu would want from men. I think you will find that the words of Jesus are universally true.

1) Love God
2) Love your fellow man

Besides these things, nothing matters. I think that much of the confusion and pain your mother and you are having in your journey are due to the conflict between what scripture says, and what the church says scripture means. But guess what . . . . What scripture means is not necessarily set in stone. Read it for yourself. Read the words of Jesus. JUST the words of Jesus. Then decide for yourself what they mean. That is what I have done and I am very at peace with my faith, despite being a heretic.

[Zzyzx]

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Complements Achilles. You represent Theism very well.

It would make for interesting debate if your attitudes and abilities were not so rare among those who promote religious beliefs.

[achilles12604]

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Complements Achilles. You represent Theism very well.

It would make for interesting debate if your attitudes and abilities were not so rare among those who promote religious beliefs.

Thanks. As always your praise goes right to my head.



Seriously though, I wish more people would simply READ the bible for themselves. They may just realize that those touting some beliefs can not legitimately call themselves followers of Jesus.