God kills 70000 Israelites!!!

[alexxcJRO]

According to the perfect inerrant word of God(Bible) the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Yahweh kills 70,000 Israelites including countless of innocent(of any wrong-doing, sin) small children, infants for the sin of one man(David) after he or Satan incites him to sin:

2 Samuel 24

“David Enrolls the Fighting Men
24 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.�
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.�
3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?�
4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beershebain the Negev of Judah.
8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.�
11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’�
13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.�
14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.�
15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.� The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the LORD, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.� “

Observation: The account in 1 Chronicles is different then the account in 2 Samuel. (So much for the perfect, inerrant word of God)

Someone would wonder what abominable sin David committed that angered God so much to make him act in such horrendous way: killing tens of thousands of men, woman and children.

Hold on your straps people, here it comes: He did a census!!!

Imagine that. The poor guy did a census and Yahweh in his perfect wisdom, justice, benevolence decided that the punishment suited for this was not to punish in some way the person guilty of the wrong-doing, sin but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin.

David even asks a very wise question to God. Why punish others when he was the one guilty:

“I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done?�

Off course the perfect God of the Bible does not answer the question. How would he?!!!

Q: How can anyone be so oblivious to such a huge discrepancy, contradiction between the supposed attributes of God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, perfect wisdom, justice, mercy) and the actions of this being portrait in the Bible?

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

Q: How can anyone in their right mind, with their rational faculties intact defend such actions and not smell the foul stench of nonsense rotting their brain?

[alexxcJRO]

Now that we have added necessity and thoughtfulness to the definition, we must now make judgement with regard to both intent and what is necessary. You are aware that this means that nearly every predatory life form would have to be considered "evil", don't you? Very few, if any, predatory life forms are limited by necessity. They are more often limited by opportunity. Also, successful predators generally show indifference to the suffering of their prey, if not savor it as part of the kill. In fact, many nonpredatory life forms show indifference toward suffering. Is such indifference also "evil"?

Non-human animals are non-moral agents. Therefore it is illogical to say for example a lion is evil for one has to be a moral agent and therefore be able to abide to some specific moral obligations, be able to discern between abstract concepts such as right, wrong, law and so one.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 144 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes, infinite creator would be in a better position to decide what is "best" in any given situation than me.

#1 The causing of pain or even death is not necessarily evil if doing so remains the best solution to any given problem

Well there's two points on which we can agree.

I too believe, as you do that God is in a better postion to decide what is best than you and yes, you are right the causing of pain (or even death) is not necessarily evil if it is the best solution for the greater good.

JW

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 144 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes, infinite creator would be in a better position to decide what is "best" in any given situation than me.

#1 The causing of pain or even death is not necessarily evil if doing so remains the best solution to any given problem

Well there's two points on which we can agree.

I too believe, as you do that God is in a better postion to decide what is best than you and yes, you are right the causing of pain (or even death) is not necessarily evil if it is the best solution for the greater good.

JW

JW, I'd like you to consider this scenario for me please.

Imagine there is a nuke somewhere in your city with a timer, and it is counting down. You do not know where it is, and you certainly don't have enough time or manpower to search every nook and cranny in your city.
However, you have captive the man responsible for placing the bomb. He will crack and divulge the location of the nuke if you either torture him long enough, or shoot to death a loved one of his.
What do you do, JW?

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to post 144 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes, infinite creator would be in a better position to decide what is "best" in any given situation than me.

#1 The causing of pain or even death is not necessarily evil if doing so remains the best solution to any given problem

Well there's two points on which we can agree.

I too believe, as you do that God is in a better postion to decide what is best than you and yes, you are right the causing of pain (or even death) is not necessarily evil if it is the best solution for the greater good.

JW

In other words the ends justify the means.

Adolf Hitler believed in his deluded brain that his actions were for the greater good.

Just because some being believes it is good doesn't make it good(this includes God or Christians).

God of the bible may be another such being. Extremely powerful but deluded indeed.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 152 by JehovahsWitness]

Right, but I suspect we disagree on whether the infinite creator in question picked the best solution. So lets head there now: An omnipotent being can do whatever his end goal is without a single jot of suffering, that is a better solution than whatever your particular theology says, therefore God did not pick the best solution. In short, a reiteration of the problem of evil.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 152 by JehovahsWitness]

Right, but I suspect we disagree on whether the infinite creator in question picked the best solution. So lets head there now: An omnipotent being can do whatever his end goal is without a single jot of suffering, that is a better solution than whatever your particular theology says, therefore God did not pick the best solution. In short, a reiteration of the problem of evil.

Done:
Pre-Conception Existence theology claims that YHWH has picked the best solution to achieve HIS purpose and since it NECESSARILY included our free will, the solution also included the best way to deal with sinners, those who chose to be evil by their free will and the suffering that caused. Everyone wants to blame GOD and say HE did it wrong but refuse to a accept that our free will choice to be evil is the cause of all our suffering.

Suffering is not proof of the failure of HIS plan since HE allowed for it when HE gave us free will. Your willingness to live a life manipulated for your happiness but without any true love or real marriage (since no free will) to avoid all suffering has been noted but is not shared by us all nor accepted as the only definition of a better solution.

There is nothing wrong with the logic that:
1. a life with true love and a real marriage is better than a life of robotic happiness.
2. The allowance of evil and suffering by giving us a free will able to chose love and marriage is better than a life that has no free will and no love nor true marriage even if evil cannot be chosen.
3. That evil will be suppressed and banished so that our life of true love and real marriage can be experienced forever without any evil or suffering as GOD originally intended is the promise of heaven.

[Bust Nak]

Pre-Conception Existence theology...

You know my usual counter-argument, how about we just skip the whole song and dance, and continue where we left off last time?

Given God's end goal of true love and real marriage.
Given that true love and real marriage is better than robotic happiness.
Given freewill to choose love and marriage or disobedience and sin, (shorten to just good or bad.)
Given an equal ability to choose good or bad.
Given an equal opportunity to choose good or bad.
Given an equal start as tabula rasa.
Given involvement in a full gamut of available scenarios to interact with each other in Pre-Conception Existence.
Given an equal opportunity to develop our likes and dislikes in Pre-Conception Existence.
Given the required time to slowly experience all we needed in Pre-Conception Existence, to gain a feeling for our likes and dislikes until we were ready.
Given our non-random, carefully chosen circumstances to stimulate our self awareness about how we felt about the others people in Pre-Conception Existence.
Given a complete experience of maturing by small incremental choices to be attracted to both good or evil in Pre-Conception Existence.

Given all the above, logically we would all, without fail, have chosen a holy marriage with God; given all the above there would logically be no evil, no sinners to be suppressed nor banished.

However that didn't happen according to your theology. You have the same old contradiction as regular, mainstream Christianity.

My alternative of a robotic life of vacuous happiness, is but one alternative to hell and suffering, if it was impossible for everyone to choose good. My alternative was always going to be moot, since you've already granted me that it is possible for everyone to choose good. The main point is still that God had not failed to pick the best solution, which is fatal to theology that proposes an omnipotent God. My alternative is a side point that says God had not merely failed to pick the best solution but have picked a decidedly bad solution - a robotic life is still better than hell.

For those readers looking for a bit more context, you can find my last clash with ttruscott here.

[JehovahsWitness]

An omnipotent being can do whatever his end goal is without a single jot of suffering, that is a better solution

How do you know what is "the better" solution? Do you claim to have all the information over every repurcussion that any given action would have in every dimension that could possibly exist for every individual in every universe that exists or will exist until the end of time? How do you know that a painless solution now might not cause untold suffering and pain at another time, universe and dimension which could not be remedied with out the absolute compromise of goodness and the decent to umitigated evil?

Can you know?

[Bust Nak]

How do you know what is "the better" solution?

Because it involve no suffering is which is better than none-zero amount of suffering.

Do you claim to have all the information over every repurcussion that any given action would have in every dimension that could possibly exist for every individual in every universe that exists or will exist until the end of time?

No, but I do have all the relevant information.

How do you know that a painless solution now might not cause untold suffering and pain at another time, universe and dimension which could not be remedied with out the absolute compromise of goodness and the decent to umitigated evil?

Because God is supposed to be omnipotent, these suggested possible repercussions need not manifest.

Can you know?

Only given the premise that God is omnipotent. Without that premise my thesis goes out of the window.

[rikuoamero]

An omnipotent being can do whatever his end goal is without a single jot of suffering, that is a better solution

How do you know what is "the better" solution? Do you claim to have all the information over every repurcussion that any given action would have in every dimension that could possibly exist for every individual in every universe that exists or will exist until the end of time? How do you know that a painless solution now might not cause untold suffering and pain at another time, universe and dimension which could not be remedied with out the absolute compromise of goodness and the decent to umitigated evil?

Can you know?

Why do you change the definition of omnipotent?
Also, don't you realize that this tactic of "how do you know that?" can be used against you as well?
Are you seriously contending that the God you worship is a being who cannot come up with a painless solution, is a being who 'in fact' does do evil?