God kills 70000 Israelites!!!

[alexxcJRO]

According to the perfect inerrant word of God(Bible) the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Yahweh kills 70,000 Israelites including countless of innocent(of any wrong-doing, sin) small children, infants for the sin of one man(David) after he or Satan incites him to sin:

2 Samuel 24

“David Enrolls the Fighting Men
24 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.�
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.�
3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?�
4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beershebain the Negev of Judah.
8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.�
11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’�
13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.�
14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.�
15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.� The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the LORD, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.� “

Observation: The account in 1 Chronicles is different then the account in 2 Samuel. (So much for the perfect, inerrant word of God)

Someone would wonder what abominable sin David committed that angered God so much to make him act in such horrendous way: killing tens of thousands of men, woman and children.

Hold on your straps people, here it comes: He did a census!!!

Imagine that. The poor guy did a census and Yahweh in his perfect wisdom, justice, benevolence decided that the punishment suited for this was not to punish in some way the person guilty of the wrong-doing, sin but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin.

David even asks a very wise question to God. Why punish others when he was the one guilty:

“I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done?�

Off course the perfect God of the Bible does not answer the question. How would he?!!!

Q: How can anyone be so oblivious to such a huge discrepancy, contradiction between the supposed attributes of God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, perfect wisdom, justice, mercy) and the actions of this being portrait in the Bible?

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

Q: How can anyone in their right mind, with their rational faculties intact defend such actions and not smell the foul stench of nonsense rotting their brain?

[Bust Nak]

Upon what authority does your say so carry weight?

I have no authority. Logic dictates that my say so carries the ultimate weight, it follows trivially from the premise that morality is subjective.

Why should our assessment of what qualifies as good and evil be more valid than another humans?

Trivially, one favor one's own opinion the most, as you become aware of another opinion that you prefer over your prior opinion, then that new opinion will automatically adopted as yours. It then follows that my assessment is the most valid because it matches my opinion the best, given I am an arbiter of what should and shouldn't be done.

By virtue of your greater wisdom? Omniscient powers? Never being wrong? Ownership or universal sovereigty? or maybe by virtue of the fact that all living things owe their very existence to you?

None of the above, it's just simple logical outcome from moral subjectivism. I believe you've already granted me that logic applies even to omnipotence elsewhere - i.e. that omnipotence does not imply God can make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift. All of what I said here would still be true even if there is a God who created me, has control over everything, legally has ownership of me.

[JehovahsWitness]

So, (correct me if I am wrong - with complete sentences if possible) are you saying that the causing harm (pain) or even death (wars kill) is not necessarily evil if doing so remains the best solution to the problem and the actions have not been taken for personal gain.

Yes, I am saying that.

We agree (see above) that:


#1 The causing of pain or even death is not necessarily evil if doing so remains the best solution to any given problem

Would it not be fair to say that to decide "logically" what is "best" one must have all the relevant information? If there were an omnipotent, omniscient creator would it not be reasonable to conclude he would naturally be in a position to have all the relevant information including all repurcussions and consequences of any given action (or inaction) for all living beings, seen or unseen (in this dimension or any others that may exist), past present or future, ? If one were objectively compare the amount of information available to an infinite Creator to say a man alive on the planet for say 70 or 80 years which, in your opinion, would be in a position to possess more relevant information?



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The limits of human logic
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 553#895553

[Bust Nak]

Would it not be fair to say that to decide "logically" what is "best" one must have all the relevant information?

That is fair.

If there were an omnipotent, omniscient creator would it not be reasonable to conclude he would naturally be in a position to have all the relevant information including all repurcussions and consequences of any given action (or inaction) for all living beings, seen or unsee, in this dimention or any others that may exist, past present and future, ?

Sure. What else would omniscient mean, if not knowing everything.

If one were objectively compare the amount of information available to an infinite Creator to say a man alive on the planet for say 70 or 80 years which, in your opinion, would be in a position to possess more relevant information?

Infinite creator would possess more relevant information than a man.

[JehovahsWitness]

Infinite creator would possess more relevant information than a man.

Are you a man? If so, perhaps I could replace the words "a man" with "you" (just as an example).

Would it be fair to say that an infinite creator would be in a better position (by virtue of his access to vaste amounts of relevant information) to decide what is "best" in any given situation than you?

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 144 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes, infinite creator would be in a better position to decide what is "best" in any given situation than me.

[Danmark]

I asked a question. You have not answered it. I ask again:

Do you claim that torturing the innocent, that killing babies, that rape and the other things listed, are NOT evil? When you answer this, we can move forward

You stated that is the definition of evil. If that is the case, then, of course, the answer would be yes. However, if that is the case, then a majority of the animal kingdom is evil. Is that what you believe? If not then that definition needs to be modified a bit.

Several times I have conditioned this definition with words like 'unnecessarily.' To the extent that other animals (homo sapiens is an animal, and often acts like it) unnecessarily and thoughtfully, knowingly tortures, then yes, those actions are also evil.

[Danmark]

I find the argument that it is OK for God to do what would otherwise be evil because he is the creator, so morally repugnant I started a new topic posing the question:

JW and others calling themselves 'Christian' have advanced the argument that since God created the world and human beings, if he tortures, kills, or rapes his creatures; or tells people to do it, this is not evil because God created them and their world.

Are these acts of God therefore moral?

Consider, "Is a man who owns a house acting immorally if he tortures, rapes, or kills his guests or children inside his home?"

Topic:
viewtopic.php?p=895738#895738

[ttruscott]

You stated that is the definition of evil. If that is the case, then, of course, the answer would be yes. However, if that is the case, then a majority of the animal kingdom is evil. Is that what you believe? If not then that definition needs to be modified a bit.

Let's not forget that
- the serpent was more evil than the animals, Gen 3:1
- he was also cursed more than they were, Gen 3:14
- the animals were included in the judgement against violence of Noah's flood, Gen 5:7.

So perhaps the modification needs to be an acceptance of the Biblical view that animals are in fact evil too.

[bluethread]

I asked a question. You have not answered it. I ask again:

Do you claim that torturing the innocent, that killing babies, that rape and the other things listed, are NOT evil? When you answer this, we can move forward

You stated that is the definition of evil. If that is the case, then, of course, the answer would be yes. However, if that is the case, then a majority of the animal kingdom is evil. Is that what you believe? If not then that definition needs to be modified a bit.

Several times I have conditioned this definition with words like 'unnecessarily.' To the extent that other animals (homo sapiens is an animal, and often acts like it) unnecessarily and thoughtfully, knowingly tortures, then yes, those actions are also evil.

Now that we have added necessity and thoughtfulness to the definition, we must now make judgement with regard to both intent and what is necessary. You are aware that this means that nearly every predatory life form would have to be considered "evil", don't you? Very few, if any, predatory life forms are limited by necessity. They are more often limited by opportunity. Also, successful predators generally show indifference to the suffering of their prey, if not savor it as part of the kill. In fact, many nonpredatory life forms show indifference toward suffering. Is such indifference also "evil"?

[bluethread]

So perhaps the modification needs to be an acceptance of the Biblical view that animals are in fact evil too.

I would be happy to discuss what is translated as "evil" in the scriptures. However, Danmark has insisted that the definition that he proposes is the only reasonable one. So, that is the one I am examining at the moment.