Is homosexuality worse than heterosexual infidelity?

[Moses Yoder]

I don't normally copy and paste an article but this is great stuff. At the end I have a question.

The morning after Chick-fil-A day
AUGUST 2, 2012 BY MIKE PATZ 1 COMMENT

Its the morning after the Chick-fil-A drama and Im still chewing.

I remember the day I was sitting next to an incredibly nice gay guy, enjoying a really good conversation when he dropped the ultimate conversation-killer.

What do you do for a living?

I hate that question. I hate that question because people cant help but size you up when they hear the answer. I hate that question because were already prone to think of ourselves as human doings instead of human beings. I hate that question because of what it does to people when they find out what I do.

Ive often tried to find ways around the question. Ive told people I work with non-profit organizations (this is true). Ive told people that I write (this is true). Ive even told people that I am a spiritual guru that assists people in opening their third eye (I really like this one). For whatever reason, on that day, I just cut to the chase. I work as a pastor of a church.

Everything changed. His next words went something like this:

Listen, Im gay and Im content with who I am. Im sure you are going to say that I was not born this way, and I wont argue the point. For a significant part of my childhood I was violated by a neighbor and then an uncle. Did that play a role in my sexual orientation? Possibly. I also know many people that had a trouble-free childhood and they turned out very happily gay. Regardless of how it occurred, this is who I am now and I make no apologies for the man I have become. If God has a problem with a man who tries to be true to himself, then I have a problem with a God that allows these kinds of things to happen to kids like me in the first place.

I kept thinking how much easier it would have been if I said I was a writer.


Fortunately, Jesus has a way of showing up in the middle of conversations just like these, and on that day He did not disappoint. My friend shared his heart, and I shared mine. Ive never seen people change via argument, which is why I prefer to help people taste and see that the Lord is good.

This is where Christians tend to blow it.

They taste really bad. They serve up some really Biblical truth in some really nauseating ways. They major on minors and minor on majors. They tend to be extremely unaware of their pride, and pride is like bad breath " everybody knows you have it, except for you. Its always easy to scream the loudest about sins you do not personally struggle with.

So why are we yelling?

Im still not sure why Christians are so militant in their opposition of homosexual immorality while they seem to go so mild with their opposition of heterosexual immorality. I hear the concern about homosexuality and the catch phrase is often family values: Imagine how much it will mess up a child who is being raised by two women, the reasoning goes. A kid needs both a father and a mother, we say. Yet the gays I speak with often wonder how the church can talk about family values when 50-60% of Christian couples divorce. Talk about family values. So a community of people that do not stay married is trying to talk to us about marital morality. How ironic.

In light of the fact that Christians have just as much pre-marital sex and watch just as much porn and divorce just as frequently why arent we more embarrassed to speak out on the issue of homosexual sin? Good question.

One guy said, Its funny how you can claim the grace of God to cover heterosexual sin while saying that homosexual sin is beyond the reach of Gods grace.

That brings me to all the Chick"fil-A drama.

I get why Chick-fil-A day looked so annoying to so many people yesterday. I understand why people have planned a kiss-in this Friday. And I can see why people shake their heads when they read yet another homophobic Facebook post.

Church people ask, why wont our culture repent? My answer: because repentance is a learned behavior. Someone has to model it. I tell parents that its silly to expect a child to repent when they have never seen a parent repent. And its futile to wait for a culture to repent when a culture has never seen the Church repent.

Is the real problem with our culture the unrepentant gay community? No. Its an unrepentant Church.

I am so sorry today for all the hatred that Christians have dished out toward gays. I am so sorry for all of the homophobic sarcasm that has come from the pulpits of Christian ministers. I am so sorry for the way we pick and choose which sins to condemn. I am so sorry that we have claimed to follow Jesus while we neglected widows and orphans, and then engaged in gossip and gluttony. I am so sorry that we have provided such a bad example for the rest of society to follow. Im embarrassed, Im ashamed, and I repent. Im serious. I repent.

Yet Im also concerned that when our culture most needs to hear truth, Christians dont know how to tell it.

Weve come to a dangerous moment in culture, and Christians are ill-equipped to handle it. We have reached the point where disagreement is now seen as hatred. I read an article today where a woman was appealing to Christians to recognize their hateful crimes against the homosexual community. I nodded in agreement, but decided to keep reading to see how she itemized these crimes. Paragraph after paragraph described the hurt and rejection resulting from these offenses, but it took a while to get to the actual crime: Christians claim that homosexuality is a sin. I was stunned. Disagreement was equated with hate.

Christians have a substantial challenge on their hands because every generation and every culture is going to disagree with Gods truth at some point. How interesting that our USAmerican culture considers Christianity to be closed-minded on the issue of sexual morality, while the majority of world religions are in agreement in opposition to the USA position on sexuality. Is USA culture not closed-minded for claiming that all these other religions are wrong? Is it not hypocrisy to say that we will be tolerant with everybody " except the people we consider intolerant. Closed-mindedness is not just a religious thing, its a human thing.

If ever Christians needed some good breath, it is now.

Because we have to kiss this world with the truth of God.

The problem is, no matter how good your kiss, your breath can ruin the whole experience. And no matter how much truth we bring, if it does not drip with grace and humility, it always falls flat.

Im not asking Christians to stop telling the truth, Im asking them to brush their teeth.

What does that look like? The apostle Paul said to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy towards all people. (Titus 3:2)

Can you imagine what would happen if an entire chunk of Christians decided to embrace the Titus 3:2 approach? Will people be staging protests and kiss-ins to protest Chick-fil-A? Maybe. But the way of Jesus is to speak evil of no one. Has Chick-fil-A been bullied? Yes. But the kingdom of Jesus response is to avoid quarreling. Is there more drama to come as our culture becomes increasingly polarized? Of course. But if God is our Father, then we have to start showing the family resemblance, being gentle and showing perfect courtesy. This should have an effect on the way we post our thoughts on Facebook. Or talk to angry people at work. Or wait in line at Chick-fil-A.

You see, we cant shrink back on truth-telling or we dishonor the very Gospel. But when we bring the truth of Jesus we have to do it in the Spirit of Jesus.

Or stop being surprised when our culture doesnt want a kiss.

Is homosexuality worse than heterosexual infidelity? If not, why do Christians hate gay people so much? If the two are equally bad, why do so many Christians who would never be gay cheat on their wife?

[Ooberman]

Christians love these little Lifetime/Oprah-like, anecdotal stories as if they expose some profound truth...


edit: BTW, I love how the Gay Rights movement has forced the Church to question itself, and force it to repent, rather than gays. Finally the Church (or some in it) shows a little humility.

[99percentatheism]

Ooberman

Christians love these little Lifetime/Oprah-like, anecdotal stories as if they expose some profound truth...

Is that little insult supposed to mean something other than a dig?

edit: BTW, I love how the Gay Rights movement has forced the Church to question itself, and force it to repent, rather than gays. Finally the Church (or some in it) shows a little humility.

This came as no surpise to anyone in the Evangelical movement that the gay guys that ran this business finally sided with the gay community. Wasn't the leader of this group found in gay bars time after time? This org was in California wasn't it? I mean come on now.

[Ooberman]

Ooberman

Christians love these little Lifetime/Oprah-like, anecdotal stories as if they expose some profound truth...

Is that little insult supposed to mean something other than a dig?

It's an observation from years of seeing how Christians try to convince us of their position.

If you think it's a dig, maybe you realize the futility?

edit: BTW, I love how the Gay Rights movement has forced the Church to question itself, and force it to repent, rather than gays. Finally the Church (or some in it) shows a little humility.

This came as no surpise to anyone in the Evangelical movement that the gay guys that ran this business finally sided with the gay community. Wasn't the leader of this group found in gay bars time after time? This org was in California wasn't it? I mean come on now.

Sure, And there is nothing wrong with that.

The point is, the public - the Christian public - is now forcing the Church to change. As they should.

The Church is all of ours, even mine. We get to decide, not pedophiles in funny hats.

If we demand our institutions change, they must change. Or die.

[99percentatheism]

Ooberman:

Ooberman

Christians love these little Lifetime/Oprah-like, anecdotal stories as if they expose some profound truth...

Is that little insult supposed to mean something other than a dig?

It's an observation from years of seeing how Christians try to convince us of their position.

Notice I don't? I follow the advice of Jesus about pearls and dust.

If you think it's a dig, maybe you realize the futility?

I know it's a dig and I know the fultility of trying to open seared-shut minds. I no longer read Playboy and Hustler either. I move on. I am here for the experience of interacting with anti-Christians not proselytizing. I am a very aware Christian to the world and its inhabitants. I'm all grown up.

edit: BTW, I love how the Gay Rights movement has forced the Church to question itself, and force it to repent, rather than gays. Finally the Church (or some in it) shows a little humility.

This came as no surpise to anyone in the Evangelical movement that the gay guys that ran this business finally sided with the gay community. Wasn't the leader of this group found in gay bars time after time? This org was in California wasn't it? I mean come on now.

Sure, And there is nothing wrong with that.

A dog returning to its vomit? I've been told that that scriptrure is in one of Peter's letters to fellow Christians. I think it was an atheist that pointed that out when I attributed that to one of the Gospels.

The point is, the public - the Christian public - is now forcing the Church to change.

We have these kinds of attacks since the beginning of The Church era. They didn't corrupt Jude's endeavors, or any other part of the catholic Church.

As they should.

As they do. They come and they go. It's all part of the deal.

The Church is all of ours, even mine. We get to decide, not pedophiles in funny hats.

I wouldn't know. I don't visit the Castro. And I don't like Boston. And I sure don't hang with gay catholic priests.

If we demand our institutions change, they must change. Or die.

The Church isn't going to die because of gay activism and the secular authorities legislating same sex marriage. It will be persecuted, but nothing more than that.

From the Romans to the French revolution to Communist Russia, to Islaimization, to the "New Atheist" movement, The Church is founded on The Rock, Christ Jesus. And the ideologies and licentious demands of worldly people is not going to even chip that.

[Ooberman]

The Church isn't going to die because of gay activism and the secular authorities legislating same sex marriage. It will be persecuted, but nothing more than that.

The Church will change, as it has always done.

From the Romans to the French revolution to Communist Russia, to Islaimization, to the "New Atheist" movement, The Church is founded on The Rock, Christ Jesus. And the ideologies and licentious demands of worldly people is not going to even chip that.

If you don't see how much the Church has changed in those years, you haven't been paying attention.

Gay clergy, Protestantism, Diet of Worms, selling indulgences, sole fida, Marcion, Limbo, Prosperity gospel, etc.

Now, let me guess, you will call all of it wrong, except the changes you endorse....

Let me guess, you don't even see a different theology from 50CE to 90CE, do you?

Maybe you should take this course:
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/cour ... x?cid=6450


NOw, I also know you are going to simply the entire thing to say "yeah, of course it's changed, but it's always been about Christ!"


Really? Christianity... eh? Well, no shiite! But if you haven't noticed, Christ is considered very differently by many denominations. What he believed varies, what he did.

I mean, seriously, you haven't heard of Tillich? Spong? Phelps? William Lane Craig? Jews? Muslims? Mormons? And so many other people who comment on what Christ was supposedly all about?

Even Paul changed his views about Jesus! It's in his writings!

Excursus: On Pauls Theological Development
August 10, 2009 by dmwilliams83
It is not uncommonly claimed that Pauls thought developed over time. The classic example of development in Pauls theological thought is his dimming expectation of Christs imminent return. As I have argued elsewhere, early on Paul believed that Christ would return within Pauls lifetime and he advised Christians accordingly. But by the time of his imprisonment in Rome, not too long before his execution, Pauls expectation that he would live to see Christs return was flagging. He no longer spoke confidently of himself and his correligionists as we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, (1 Thess 4:15, 17, written ca. 41-43 CE) but rather began coming to terms with his imminent demise (Phil 1:21ff, written ca. 61-63 CE). He still believed that the Lord would return soon, mind you, but no longer did he think he would live to see it (Phil 4:5).

Or, perhaps you've read the Bible? The book Christianity is based on?

Have you compared John to Paul? Or to the Synoptics?


Have you, perhaps, read Aquinas and compared him to modern theologians?


Have you heard of Natural Theology?


Did you know that new manuscripts were found over time that impacted interpretation of the Bible?

Haven't you ever heard of the Apocrypha? Who do you think wrote those books? Non-Christians? Why did Christian churches have them and use them? Why did they need to debate them in 325?

Honestly, if you can't see how the Church has fractured into thousands of different theologies, I simply pity you.

[Ooberman]

Here's another change from your early fellow Superstitionists:

Cynocephaly
In the very early days of Christianity, there were a few carry-overs from older mythology. One was the belief in cynocephaly (see item 5), or people with the heads of dogs. It was thought that many of the more distant peoples, like central Africans or Indians, had the heads of dogs, many believing that these people would go back to normal once baptized. Different saints who are said to be from distant lands, like St Christopher were depicted with a dogs head (see above). There was even myths about descendants of Cain, who inhabited Canaan before the Israelis, that barked and ate human flesh. Marco Polo was said to be surprised he didnt see any dog-headed people in China, though he claims many people he talked to had encountered dog headed barbarians in Asia.

http://listverse.com/2011/01/20/top-10- ... n-beliefs/

[99percentatheism]

Ooberman

Quite the huge Red Herring you've tossed into this thread. But I'll answer your posints anyway. Although you seemed to have given my answers for me. But I'm used to people like you.

The Church isn't going to die because of gay activism and the secular authorities legislating same sex marriage. It will be persecuted, but nothing more than that.

The Church will change, as it has always done.

Places called Churches and denominations maybe. But apolgetics is about discerning what is and what isn't truth. Homosexuality has already been plied in the Church and was rejected. A more sophisticated and nasty attempt now isn't going to work in the long run. What does darkness have in common with light? The Disciples warned us. In writing even.

From the Romans to the French revolution to Communist Russia, to Islaimization, to the "New Atheist" movement, The Church is founded on The Rock, Christ Jesus. And the ideologies and licentious demands of worldly people is not going to even chip that.

If you don't see how much the Church has changed in those years, you haven't been paying attention.

I prove from post to post how much attention I have been paying.

Gay clergy, Protestantism, Diet of Worms, selling indulgences, sole fida, Marcion, Limbo, Prosperity gospel, etc. Now, let me guess, you will call all of it wrong, except the changes you endorse....

Your "cut me off at thye pass" tactic doesn't work. Each and every one of the heresies you list are just that. False teachings by false teachers. And "gay clergy" that is impossible. Per the New Testament. Unless of course, the gay clergy member doesn't act on his sexual tastes. But still it calls for one husband and one wife in the clergy.

Let me guess, you don't even see a different theology from 50CE to 90CE, do you?

I see modernity. I'm afraid that 200-plus years isn't going to alter the Gospel.

Maybe you should take this course:
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/cour ... x?cid=6450

I won't respond like I should to your offer out of not wanting to get a warning from the mods.

NOw, I also know you are going to simply the entire thing to say "yeah, of course it's changed, but it's always been about Christ!"

Nothing has changed. The Church is eternal. Or at least until the end of this age.

Really? Christianity... eh? Well, no shiite! But if you haven't noticed, Christ is considered very differently by many denominations. What he believed varies, what he did.

The Body of Christ does not mean that an eye ball can be equated with a toe. Heresies are not truth. They are by definition lies by liars.

I mean, seriously, you haven't heard of Tillich? Spong? Phelps? William Lane Craig? Jews? Muslims? Mormons? And so many other people who comment on what Christ was supposedly all about?

I believe that Craig may be solid. But just because a person has an opinion on what Christ was all about does not mean they are orthodox and "in" The Church. Spong comes quickly to mind.

Even Paul changed his views about Jesus! It's in his writings!
Excursus: On Pauls Theological Development
August 10, 2009 by dmwilliams83
It is not uncommonly claimed that Pauls thought developed over time. The classic example of development in Pauls theological thought is his dimming expectation of Christs imminent return. As I have argued elsewhere, early on Paul believed that Christ would return within Pauls lifetime and he advised Christians accordingly. But by the time of his imprisonment in Rome, not too long before his execution, Pauls expectation that he would live to see Christs return was flagging. He no longer spoke confidently of himself and his correligionists as we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, (1 Thess 4:15, 17, written ca. 41-43 CE) but rather began coming to terms with his imminent demise (Phil 1:21ff, written ca. 61-63 CE). He still believed that the Lord would return soon, mind you, but no longer did he think he would live to see it (Phil 4:5).

Yet not one essential doctrine is changed by Paul's writings. And I will have to examine who "dmwilliams83" is.

Or, perhaps you've read the Bible? The book Christianity is based on?

I have just about every version that has been printed.

Have you compared John to Paul? Or to the Synoptics?

Yup. Jesus is still the risien Christ. "Christ" means Messiah. Not one difference between the Lordship of Christ in Paul or John's writings. Jonh's may be tougher, but Christian truth is still the same.

Have you, perhaps, read Aquinas and compared him to modern theologians?

Did Aquinas have an unrisen Christ?

Have you heard of Natural Theology?

William Paley's or Craig's?

Did you know that new manuscripts were found over time that impacted interpretation of the Bible?

Ubiquitous.

Haven't you ever heard of the Apocrypha?

My 13-year old son and I read it.

Who do you think wrote those books? Non-Christians? Why did Christian churches have them and use them? Why did they need to debate them in 325?

Honesty. Truth. Heresies etc., etc., etc.. You are proving how open minded Christians are. The actual free thinkers.

Honestly, if you can't see how the Church has fractured into thousands of different theologies, I simply pity you.

And sins UNREPENTED of are worse than sins repented of. Sins repented of no longer exist.

Homosexuality is a worse sin than infidelity because adultery is a sin repented of.

Do the math.

[99percentatheism]

Oops

[Ooberman]

Ooberman

Quite the huge Red Herring you've tossed into this thread. But I'll answer your posints with pleasuer. Although you seemed to have given my answers for me. I'm used to people like you.

The Church isn't going to die because of gay activism and the secular authorities legislating same sex marriage. It will be persecuted, but nothing more than that.

The Church will change, as it has always done.

Places called Churches and denominations maybe.

Not maybe. They have and will.

The Churches are the manifestation of Christianity. They are the brick and mortar shops in which theologians sell their product.

I'm glad to see you recognize the changes in the Church and in Christianity.

[99percentatheism]

Ooberman

Quite the huge Red Herring you've tossed into this thread. But I'll answer your posints with pleasuer. Although you seemed to have given my answers for me. I'm used to people like you.

The Church isn't going to die because of gay activism and the secular authorities legislating same sex marriage. It will be persecuted, but nothing more than that.

The Church will change, as it has always done.

Places called Churches and denominations maybe.

Not maybe. They have and will.

The Churches are the manifestation of Christianity. They are the brick and mortar shops in which theologians sell their product.

I'm glad to see you recognize the changes in the Church and in Christianity.

Yes. I play an electric guitar and not a lyre.

But Christ is still Ord and God.

Modern things and a different day on the calendar do not change the immutable truth of Christ.

Not even Spong and his degrees can do that.

A heretic is a heretic.

Boy you sure avoided my responses pal.

Of course.