Is homosexuality worse than heterosexual infidelity?

[Moses Yoder]

I don't normally copy and paste an article but this is great stuff. At the end I have a question.

The morning after Chick-fil-A day
AUGUST 2, 2012 BY MIKE PATZ 1 COMMENT

Its the morning after the Chick-fil-A drama and Im still chewing.

I remember the day I was sitting next to an incredibly nice gay guy, enjoying a really good conversation when he dropped the ultimate conversation-killer.

What do you do for a living?

I hate that question. I hate that question because people cant help but size you up when they hear the answer. I hate that question because were already prone to think of ourselves as human doings instead of human beings. I hate that question because of what it does to people when they find out what I do.

Ive often tried to find ways around the question. Ive told people I work with non-profit organizations (this is true). Ive told people that I write (this is true). Ive even told people that I am a spiritual guru that assists people in opening their third eye (I really like this one). For whatever reason, on that day, I just cut to the chase. I work as a pastor of a church.

Everything changed. His next words went something like this:

Listen, Im gay and Im content with who I am. Im sure you are going to say that I was not born this way, and I wont argue the point. For a significant part of my childhood I was violated by a neighbor and then an uncle. Did that play a role in my sexual orientation? Possibly. I also know many people that had a trouble-free childhood and they turned out very happily gay. Regardless of how it occurred, this is who I am now and I make no apologies for the man I have become. If God has a problem with a man who tries to be true to himself, then I have a problem with a God that allows these kinds of things to happen to kids like me in the first place.

I kept thinking how much easier it would have been if I said I was a writer.


Fortunately, Jesus has a way of showing up in the middle of conversations just like these, and on that day He did not disappoint. My friend shared his heart, and I shared mine. Ive never seen people change via argument, which is why I prefer to help people taste and see that the Lord is good.

This is where Christians tend to blow it.

They taste really bad. They serve up some really Biblical truth in some really nauseating ways. They major on minors and minor on majors. They tend to be extremely unaware of their pride, and pride is like bad breath " everybody knows you have it, except for you. Its always easy to scream the loudest about sins you do not personally struggle with.

So why are we yelling?

Im still not sure why Christians are so militant in their opposition of homosexual immorality while they seem to go so mild with their opposition of heterosexual immorality. I hear the concern about homosexuality and the catch phrase is often family values: Imagine how much it will mess up a child who is being raised by two women, the reasoning goes. A kid needs both a father and a mother, we say. Yet the gays I speak with often wonder how the church can talk about family values when 50-60% of Christian couples divorce. Talk about family values. So a community of people that do not stay married is trying to talk to us about marital morality. How ironic.

In light of the fact that Christians have just as much pre-marital sex and watch just as much porn and divorce just as frequently why arent we more embarrassed to speak out on the issue of homosexual sin? Good question.

One guy said, Its funny how you can claim the grace of God to cover heterosexual sin while saying that homosexual sin is beyond the reach of Gods grace.

That brings me to all the Chick"fil-A drama.

I get why Chick-fil-A day looked so annoying to so many people yesterday. I understand why people have planned a kiss-in this Friday. And I can see why people shake their heads when they read yet another homophobic Facebook post.

Church people ask, why wont our culture repent? My answer: because repentance is a learned behavior. Someone has to model it. I tell parents that its silly to expect a child to repent when they have never seen a parent repent. And its futile to wait for a culture to repent when a culture has never seen the Church repent.

Is the real problem with our culture the unrepentant gay community? No. Its an unrepentant Church.

I am so sorry today for all the hatred that Christians have dished out toward gays. I am so sorry for all of the homophobic sarcasm that has come from the pulpits of Christian ministers. I am so sorry for the way we pick and choose which sins to condemn. I am so sorry that we have claimed to follow Jesus while we neglected widows and orphans, and then engaged in gossip and gluttony. I am so sorry that we have provided such a bad example for the rest of society to follow. Im embarrassed, Im ashamed, and I repent. Im serious. I repent.

Yet Im also concerned that when our culture most needs to hear truth, Christians dont know how to tell it.

Weve come to a dangerous moment in culture, and Christians are ill-equipped to handle it. We have reached the point where disagreement is now seen as hatred. I read an article today where a woman was appealing to Christians to recognize their hateful crimes against the homosexual community. I nodded in agreement, but decided to keep reading to see how she itemized these crimes. Paragraph after paragraph described the hurt and rejection resulting from these offenses, but it took a while to get to the actual crime: Christians claim that homosexuality is a sin. I was stunned. Disagreement was equated with hate.

Christians have a substantial challenge on their hands because every generation and every culture is going to disagree with Gods truth at some point. How interesting that our USAmerican culture considers Christianity to be closed-minded on the issue of sexual morality, while the majority of world religions are in agreement in opposition to the USA position on sexuality. Is USA culture not closed-minded for claiming that all these other religions are wrong? Is it not hypocrisy to say that we will be tolerant with everybody " except the people we consider intolerant. Closed-mindedness is not just a religious thing, its a human thing.

If ever Christians needed some good breath, it is now.

Because we have to kiss this world with the truth of God.

The problem is, no matter how good your kiss, your breath can ruin the whole experience. And no matter how much truth we bring, if it does not drip with grace and humility, it always falls flat.

Im not asking Christians to stop telling the truth, Im asking them to brush their teeth.

What does that look like? The apostle Paul said to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy towards all people. (Titus 3:2)

Can you imagine what would happen if an entire chunk of Christians decided to embrace the Titus 3:2 approach? Will people be staging protests and kiss-ins to protest Chick-fil-A? Maybe. But the way of Jesus is to speak evil of no one. Has Chick-fil-A been bullied? Yes. But the kingdom of Jesus response is to avoid quarreling. Is there more drama to come as our culture becomes increasingly polarized? Of course. But if God is our Father, then we have to start showing the family resemblance, being gentle and showing perfect courtesy. This should have an effect on the way we post our thoughts on Facebook. Or talk to angry people at work. Or wait in line at Chick-fil-A.

You see, we cant shrink back on truth-telling or we dishonor the very Gospel. But when we bring the truth of Jesus we have to do it in the Spirit of Jesus.

Or stop being surprised when our culture doesnt want a kiss.

Is homosexuality worse than heterosexual infidelity? If not, why do Christians hate gay people so much? If the two are equally bad, why do so many Christians who would never be gay cheat on their wife?

[99percentatheism]

Dantalion

Doesn't 'love your enemy' entail that you at least tolerate homosexuals ?

Yup. And I obviously do.

I would like to see you practicing what you preach 99, or is your own bigotry stronger than your faith in Christ ?

While you have only cliche and progressive political propaganda for attempting to hanga label of bigotry on me as a personal insult, my faith in Christ is quite solid pal. What business is it of yours anyway? Are you a religious leader with some kind of power of judgment over us?

I highly doubt that.

But if you care to "test all things" including my "tolerance" you may want to find the "Gay Denomination" thread to see how wrong your attmpts at charaterizing me is. This is nothing but a truth versus lies issue and it is clear that the "new" paradigm of secular morality forced onto Christianity, is nothing more than pure intolerance of the historic Christian Church and the consistent message of repentance and salvation.

You find all the bigots you want in the opposition camps.

Actually, I have found that the percentages stack up higher in the liberal, progressive and secular (atheistic) worldviews. Which at this point in history (proven even at this website) are basically distinguishable from each other.

[keithprosser3]

It is fascinating that the only comparison for gay behavior is the most odious and unfaithful of behaviors.

Its not the only comparison, but it is the one that is being discussed. They are being discussed together because both are taboo to some degree.

It's obvious to me that adultery is worse because in homosexuality nobody gets hurt, and adultery does often hurt a third party, as many know from personal experience. That is also the reason why objection to the former is irrational.

I think a better question is which is better.... the answer being: both at the same time!

[Allahakbar]

Dantalion

Doesn't 'love your enemy' entail that you at least tolerate homosexuals ?

Yup. And I obviously do.

I would like to see you practicing what you preach 99, or is your own bigotry stronger than your faith in Christ ?

While you have only cliche and progressive political propaganda

"progressive political propaganda" 3P's. Could you perhaps elucidate a "meaning" for this socially engineered phrase? I have never encountered it. It would seem to be some combination of the GOOD (progressive) the BAD (political) and the ugly (propaganda). Are you referring to spaghetti westerns?

for attempting to hanga label of bigotry on me as a personal insult, my faith in Christ is quite solid pal. What business is it of yours anyway?

Well perhaps it's the business of everyone when someone claims that his judgment is gods judgment and that he represents the teachings of Jesus vis a vis the condemnation of same sex marriage when Jesus never, ever, ever, ever condemned such thing.

Are you a religious leader with some kind of power of judgment over us?

I highly doubt that.

And what difference does that make? Any poor thing with a book and not even the capacity to read has the right to judge in the world of the "faithful" apparently.

But if you care to "test all things" including my "tolerance" you may want to find the "Gay Denomination" thread to see how wrong your attmpts at charaterizing me is. This is nothing but a truth versus lies issue and it is clear that the "new" paradigm of secular morality forced onto Christianity,

For someone to have not only posted a thread cajolling others to create their own sect of "christianity" (like yours) but to have directed someone here to visit that thread to then proclaim that something you have named secular morality is being forced on "christians" (when you mean your sect) is beyond the absurd. Truth verses lies was not a good start, considering.

is nothing more than pure intolerance of the historic Christian Church and the consistent message of repentance and salvation.

You find all the bigots you want in the opposition camps.

As we can see from the non judgmental attitude of the devout "Jesus follower" with his consistent message of forgiveness and love.

Actually, I have found that the percentages stack up higher in the liberal, progressive and secular (atheistic) worldviews. Which at this point in history (proven even at this website) are basically distinguishable from each other.

Percentages!WOW! I do hope for your sake that this is a typo.

Actually, I have found that the percentages stack up higher in the liberal, progressive and secular (atheistic) worldviews. Which at this point in history (proven even at this website) are basically distinguishable from each other.

LOL

[mitty]

So that would make his point singularly nondescript, since love is in fact the message of your god.

No it is the progressives that make that scripturally defined term singularly nondescript. The love of Adonai is not the eros of Greece or even the romance of modern western culture. It is tied to the obligations of HaTorah.

The eros of Greece, plus the utter debauchery of Roman sexuality.

The answer to the OP was a no-brainer.

Rememebr that Nero "married" two men. You can see why Paul's letter to the Christians in Romans didn't go over so well.

It's fascinaiting that it still enrages the same kinds of people now.

But even Paul's letter in Romans didn't mention anything about female homosexuality and is thus consistent with the rest of the bible about female homosexuality being a non-issue and irrelevant.

[99percentatheism]

keithprosser3

It is fascinating that the only comparison for gay behavior is the most odious and unfaithful of behaviors.

Its not the only comparison, but it is the one that is being discussed. They are being discussed together because both are taboo to some degree.

Adultery as an act or behavior, is forgiveable. Abominations rarely are. And no matter how many lawsuits and boycotts the LGBT "community" bring against Christians from now until they give up, same gender sex acts are an abomination.

It's obvious to me that adultery is worse because in homosexuality nobody gets hurt, and adultery does often hurt a third party, as many know from personal experience.

If gay sex was just the same as adultery, we would not have for thousands of years, society finding homosexuals and homosexuality so loathsome. In ancient Greece, the receiver of male gay sex was denied citizenship.

That is also the reason why objection to the former is irrational.

Like the abortion struggle, many, many people who aren't Evangelcial Christians, will see the debased consequences of having this behavior become equal to normality. There is never going to be any acceptable fairy tales for kindergartners about two princes that hook up in a gay bar. Not many fables start with two guys meeting for sex at a park when the sun goes down either. And in the New Testament, it is clear that same gender sex is antithetical with Christian life.

I think a better question is which is better.... the answer being: both at the same time!

I'm sure that perspective is shared by the typical cruising gay guy that all of soceity has come to know all too well in "the AIDS epidemic in the gay community." Of all the throngs of thousands cheering the redefinition of marriage after the "supreme court" decision, you can bet that the dream of a life of sexual purity and virginty until "marriage" wasn't on anyones lips. No pun intended.

The answer to the OP is yes.

[99percentatheism]

So that would make his point singularly nondescript, since love is in fact the message of your god.

No it is the progressives that make that scripturally defined term singularly nondescript. The love of Adonai is not the eros of Greece or even the romance of modern western culture. It is tied to the obligations of HaTorah.

The eros of Greece, plus the utter debauchery of Roman sexuality.

The answer to the OP was a no-brainer.

Rememebr that Nero "married" two men. You can see why Paul's letter to the Christians in Romans didn't go over so well.

It's fascinaiting that it still enrages the same kinds of people now.

But even Paul's letter in Romans didn't mention anything about female homosexuality and thus consistent with the rest of the bible about female homosexuality being a non-issue and irrelevant.

Huh? Romans 1 details chick on chick sex. Do you really need the porn pictures too? They were given over to a reprobate mind. There is a reason why the LGBT "community" and its legion of supporters become enraged when this scripture is preached. It is directly as accurate today against homosexuals and homosexuality as it was when it was written under the tyrannical rule of Nero. Who, by the way, married two guys.

Sappho and sapphic love have no place anywhere in the Tanakh and New Testament to find acceptance. Feminsim the way it is peddled by the worldly and especially the lesbian product as well, is as alien to Christian life as it would be to sacrifice a bull on an alter of Bacchus. And how compatible that comparison is to today's world of sexual licentiousness.

The depraved assertion that Naomi and Ruth were lesbian lovers involved in a gay marriage defies all decency about a Mother in Law and her Daughter in law. But of course comes as no surprise these days. Anything goes is now basically idolatry worshipped from Boston to Frisco and many parts in between to across the pond. The only blasphemy today is not accepting it.

How prophetic.

Although they know Gods righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

- Paul to Christian Romans living under the reign of Nero

For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do"living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

- Peter to Christians living under the reign of Nero

Sodom and Gomorrah has become Europe and America.

[Ooberman]

It is fascinating that the only comparison for gay behavior is the most odious and unfaithful of behaviors.

Its not the only comparison, but it is the one that is being discussed. They are being discussed together because both are taboo to some degree.

It's obvious to me that adultery is worse because in homosexuality nobody gets hurt, and adultery does often hurt a third party, as many know from personal experience. That is also the reason why objection to the former is irrational.

I think a better question is which is better.... the answer being: both at the same time!

Huzaaa! I wish i could have a gay affair...

[Ooberman]

I think we need to start shifting the conversation away from the christian idea that gay sex is bad and only talk about how it is like any sex: can also be an expression of love and intimacy.
The christians win everytime we have another conversation about how vile it is to them. I think we need to get them to see how vile they are for continuing their attack on gay people.

[99percentatheism]

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

Although they know Gods righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

- Romans 1

Now we see how sensible the Catholics are when they say that the Saints are as alive today in yonder heavenly realms, as they were when they penned their accurate reports about human nature and Christian life.

Looking at just some of the posts here at this site (let alone what is happening in the soceity at large) it looks as if Paul wrote his letters an hour ago.

[mitty]

So that would make his point singularly nondescript, since love is in fact the message of your god.

No it is the progressives that make that scripturally defined term singularly nondescript. The love of Adonai is not the eros of Greece or even the romance of modern western culture. It is tied to the obligations of HaTorah.

The eros of Greece, plus the utter debauchery of Roman sexuality.

The answer to the OP was a no-brainer.

Rememebr that Nero "married" two men. You can see why Paul's letter to the Christians in Romans didn't go over so well.

It's fascinaiting that it still enrages the same kinds of people now.

But even Paul's letter in Romans didn't mention anything about female homosexuality and thus consistent with the rest of the bible about female homosexuality being a non-issue and irrelevant.

Huh? Romans 1 details chick on chick sex. Do you really need the porn pictures too? They were given over to a reprobate mind. There is a reason why the LGBT "community" and its legion of supporters become enraged when this scripture is preached. It is directly as accurate today against homosexuals and homosexuality as it was when it was written under the tyrannical rule of Nero. Who, by the way, married two guys.

Sappho and sapphic love have no place anywhere in the Tanakh and New Testament to find acceptance. Feminsim the way it is peddled by the worldly and especially the lesbian product as well, is as alien to Christian life as it would be to sacrifice a bull on an alter of Bacchus. An how compatible that comparison is to todays world of sexual licentiousness.

The depraved assertion that Naomi and Ruth were lesbian lovers involved in a gay marriage defies all decency about a Mother in Law and her Daughter in law. But of course comes as no surprise these days. Anything goes is now basically idolatry worshipped from Boston to Frisco and many parts in between to across the pond. The only blasphemy today is not accepting it.

How prophetic.

Although they know Gods righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

- Paul to Christian Romans living under the reign of Nero

For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do"living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

- Peter to Christians living under the reign of Nero

Sodom and Gomorrah has become Europe and America.

Nah!!! Where does Romans 1 mention anything about female homosexuality since Romans 1:26 certainly doesn't? Where does Romans 1 say "women with women working that which is unseemly" or that the men's women burned in lust for each other? Answer: it doesn't.

And where does Leviticus say to womankind "Thou shalt not lie with womankind, as with mankind: it is an abomination"? Answer: it doesn't. But it does tell them not to commit adultery and not to give sexual favours to their affectionate doggy or horsey.

And where does the S&G story mention anything about homosexuality? Answer: it doesn't, but only about the inhospitality of the men and women towards a couple of strangers and wanting to know what they were up to. And it describes Lot's immoral incestual behavior with his daughters.

When were there laws against female homosexuality? Answer: there weren't, unless you regard buggery between women as unlawful.

Where did Jesus mention anything about homosexuality? Answer: he didn't, apart from Matt 19:12. But he did condemn divorcees who remarry and suggested that they should cut off their genitals and throw them away (Matt 5:29-30) to avoid continually committing adultery. And he did have an irresponsible attitude towards alcohol use (John 2:1-10 Matt 11:19).

Alas you are just trying to convince yourself that female homosexuality is naughty.