The Mental-Illness Theory of Religion

[Jagella]

There are some viable theories of religious belief, and to posit that religious belief is a mental illness is one such theory.

It should be instructive to begin to discuss this theory with an analogy that should clarify that psychological disturbance underlies belief in gods and the supernatural. Let's say that I am sincerely claiming that I am in touch with powerful extraterrestrials. I say I communicate with them telepathically. I can and do ask them to use their highly-advanced technology to help me, and they grant my requests. I testify that their help to me has included their curing my illnesses and altering the weather for me. When skeptics ask about my ET friends, I explain that the skeptics need to please these ETs by accepting their existence. Otherwise, the skeptics will receive nothing from them!

It gets even better. I am certain that one day soon these ETs will arrive on earth from space with a spectacular display of their most advanced technologies. They will alter the light-refraction traits of the atmosphere to darken the sun and make the moon blood-red. They'll even make it appear that the stars are falling to the earth! And if that's not impressive enough, they will incinerate all people who have refused to believe in them with death-ray energy beams. Those of us who have faithfully followed these ETs will be teleported into their spacecraft to be taken away to live in paradise forever on their planet, Mumbo-Jumbo.

I'm crazy as anybody here, both believer and unbeliever, can clearly see. I'm very deluded. Yet, with just a few changes of the words I'm using, you can uncover basic Christian theology.

Why, then, is Christianity and other religions not mental illness?

[FarWanderer]

[Replying to post 190 by alexxcJRO]

Even when the cause of this "imbalance between neurotransmitters" is entirely experiencial?

[Neatras]

[Replying to post 190 by alexxcJRO]

Even when the cause of this "imbalance between neurotransmitters" is entirely experiencial?

The experiential phenomena you're likely trying to posit is in a different league than what I think alexx would commonly refer to as "teaching." Connotations would suggest that teaching involves relaying information exclusively. Meanwhile, PTSD is a physiological effect produced when the subject is put through a stimulus that significantly affects the brain.

We need to distinguish "telling someone something and causing them to believe something about reality that is incorrect" and "a cluster of neurons have been rewired such that whenever a specific stimulus is triggered, the brain has an immediate, often violent, reaction that results in abnormal behavior." Both of these things are relevant to the discussion, but attempting to force the opposite party on these two sides to equivocate the two is foolhardy.

The "imbalance between neurotransmitters" can, in theory, be replicated. If I were to take two identical brain states, subject them both to a traumatic experience, and observe their behaviors after, it's possible that I'd get a similar "mental imbalance" or mental illness between the two. This doesn't, however, mean that I've "taught" the illness to anyone.

Recognizing that brains are the substrate on which human consciousness exists, and that brains are physical structures that can be manipulated (with some level of plasticity in their structure and function), I can, in theory, create a road-map of stimulus and experiential data that allows me to manipulate someone into producing an abnormal brain state. This could be referred to as "teaching" an "illness" to someone.

But this is well beyond the scope of what religion does, it's well beyond what modern science can rationally describe as "teaching" and it's obfuscating the discussion if we can't separate these classifications for phenomena into their distinct groups.

I think all of us need to take a step back, collect our thoughts, and attempt to reevaluate how we're using words such as "illness," "teaching," "brains," and "experience." I'm getting the feeling that neither FarWanderer nor alexxcJR0 are completely, 100% factually wrong. We're making much more progress if we do things in a pragmatic, sequential manner that takes into account all arguments.

Putting all of that aside for the moment, I'll suggest that religion is not a mental illness; it's a symptom, not the cause. The cause is most certainly the hyper-active agent detection function in our brains that our ancestors evolved in response to a harsh environment where separating conscious agents and social cues was the determinant factor for survival; without any need to turn off this function, it was selected for and then over-emphasized to the point that nearly all humans today (barring those with abnormal brains) are constantly and illegitimately projecting conscious agenticity onto their surroundings.

This is the cause and sustenance for religion itself, and should be analyzed more heavily than we're doing so far. Religion is one element of this, certainly, but religious ideas can be taught. Hyperactive agent detection, which I believe to be the cause of all this supposed "mental illness," is actually not mental illness at all, at least insofar as we're defining illness as abnormal brain states. Because that's the base state, the template, the staple component of all modern human brains. Not an illness, but a poorly tempered tool. This can not be taught, because it is instinctively inherent to humans.

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to post 190 by alexxcJRO]

Even when the cause of this "imbalance between neurotransmitters" is entirely experiencial?

Like i said with drug-induced psychosis one can manipulate certain physical conditions that lead to PTSD like torturing someone extensively phisically and/or mentally in order to produces an imbalance between neurotransmitters serotonin and substance P which will cause PTSD.
Saying his teaching that guy some PTSD is moronic.
He is not teaching anything dear sir.

Q: Do you not know what teaching means?

teaching
noun teach-ing t"-chi
1 : the act, practice, or profession of a teacher
2 : something taught; especially : doctrine the teachings of Confucius

For example I go and do some bungee jumping and get some adrenalin going on.
It's entirely experiential.
Saying i am learning, teaching myself some adrenalin rush is moronic dear sir.

[FarWanderer]

[Replying to post 193 by alexxcJRO]

We don't diagnose PTSD by measuring the "balance of neurotransmitters".

It's inferred by behavior and subject reports.

There is a time and place for material reductionism, but not in the realm of mental illness. Otherwise we wouldn't even call it a "mental" illness in the first place.

Q: Do you not know what teaching means? Eh?

"Teaching mental illness" is weird grammar someone else came up with. However, depending on the methods and content, teaching can certainly result in a mental illness.

[bluethread]

"Teaching mental illness" is weird grammar someone else came up with. However, depending on the methods and content, teaching can certainly result in a mental illness.

Maybe intense indoctrination. However, it is my view that this kind of blurring the line between clinical illness and voluntary behavior based on ones philosophical viewpoints is getting dangerously close to the excuse used by the Soviets and the Chinese Communists for the establishment of their "reeducation" camps.

[FarWanderer]

"Teaching mental illness" is weird grammar someone else came up with. However, depending on the methods and content, teaching can certainly result in a mental illness.

Maybe intense indoctrination. However, it is my view that this kind of blurring the line between clinical illness and voluntary behavior based on ones philosophical viewpoints is getting dangerously close to the excuse used by the Soviets and the Chinese Communists for the establishment of their "reeducation" camps.

I am troubled by this as well. It seems clear to me that such a thing as mental illness exists, but authority over its legal definition must be granted with the utmost caution.

[TSGracchus]

[Replying to post 196 by FarWanderer]

FarWanderer: "I am troubled by this as well. It seems clear to me that such a thing as mental illness exists, but authority over its legal definition must be granted with the utmost caution."

Well, of course! If we came to understand and accept that people react in ways that we disapprove of because of factors of genetics and environment, nature and nurture, beyond their control, how could we assert our own moral superiority, and punish and forgive, executing by our own hands divine "justice".
One human mind might "break" under a certain stress that another mind might withstand, while a different stress or the same stress at a different time or place, or in different company, might yield the opposite result. But our impulse is to blame, especially the weaknesses of others, while glossing over our own weaknesses, especially our inability to control those impulses that bypass our own powers of reason to repress and interfere with those impulses.

We used to demand the right of vengeance, but now the same impulse is termed "justice". Or instead of succumbing to lust, we "fall in love". It is really just the built in impulse to reproduce, but but those other folks succumb to lust while "our sort" fall in love.

What humans do is not so much behave differently from chimps, but rationalize that behavior, which chimps probably can't do because chimps have never studied philosophy or theology so that we can conceal ourselves in tangles of fuzzy reifications of imaginary concepts like "justice" and "free will".

I think that the Jewish rabbi, Yeshua, might have been at least partly aware of this when he said stuff like, Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"

What poor Yeshua didn't seem to understand is that even hypocrites are just doing what humans do, and they certainly don't want anyone pointing out that nobody is morally superior, it's just that some are lucky enough or clever enough not to get caught out.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 186 by alexxcJRO]

If you define mental illness as something that can't be taught, conversation over.
I was hoping to have a conversation with someone who recognize it could and is taught.

You cant help yourself but babble nonsense.
......

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[dianaiad]

I am talking about a fact of reality.
Humans illness cannot be defined into existence dear sir. It manifests when certain physical conditions in the human body are meet.

What about PTSD?

Dear sir,

Either you have an imbalance between neurotransmitters serotonin and substance P which is the reason for your PTSD or not.

Either you have the trauma which is the reason for your imbalance between neurotransmitters serotonin and substance P or not.

To say you can teach someone/to many someone some imbalance between neurotransmitters serotonin and substance P or PTSD is moronic.

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[Tcg]

Like i said with drug-induced psychosis one can manipulate certain physical conditions that lead to PTSD like torturing someone extensively phisically and/or mentally in order to produces an imbalance between neurotransmitters serotonin and substance P which will cause PTSD.

The development of PTSD is not this straightforward. Not all humans who experience extreme trauma will develop PTSD. The reasons for this are not fully understood, but it may be related to variations in brain structure.

This fact is easily observed in that not all veterans of combat will develop PTSD. There are many variables, but some where around 10% will develop PTSD. So in your example, where an individual is exposed to extensive physical and/or mental torture, about 9 out of 10 individuals will not develop PTSD.