Babies are not innocent

[Angel]

This topic stems from another discussion topic I started called, Killing kids. There, I basically asked why did God kill kids and order others to do the same. Now to break down that topic further, I wanted to know about the moral status of kids. The reason is if innocent and righteous/good means the samething then based on my reading of the Bible so far, babies aren't innocent. They are only innocent if you take innocent to mean 'harmless'. Now, this is not to say that therefore kids, especially babies, are guilty because they may simply just be in a neutral state as far as their moral standing by God's standards. The reason I am leaning towards this view is because of the passages Genesis 18:20-33 and 1 Samuel 15:1-3.

Genesis 18:20-33 covers the context of God talking about destroying Sodom and Gomorrah because of their wickedness. Abraham repeatedly questions God about that action mainly about if there were righteous people in the city would God still destroy the city. God mentioned that He would not destroy an entire city if righteous people were found in it. So from these passages we can infer the principle that God would not destroy the righteous with the unrighteous. Abraham stated this as a rhetorical question in Genesis 18:23. Despite this, we find the city destroyed in Genesis chapter 19. But let me mention a clearer/explicit example.

In 1 Samuel 15:1-3, we find God ordering the killing of all the inhabitants of a city, and included would be children and infants.
1 Samuel 15:3 "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’

Conclusion:
So putting all of these passages together, babies aren't righteous or innocent, morally-speaking. In Genesis chapter 18 we find the principle that God would NOT destroy a city if there were righteous people there, or as we learn from NOah's story He could at least destroy ALL of the wicked while preserving the righteous ones only. But yet, we find kids being killed in Sodom and Gomorrah, during Noah's flood, and various battles that Israel faced with enemy nations (e.g. the Amalekites mentioned in 1 Samuel 15:1-3). Am I correct here or is the Bible contradictory on this matter?


Questions for debate:
1. Are babies innocent or do I have a valid viewpoint (babies are neutral in moral standing w/ God)?

2. Would babies not having a moral status or standing with God, like trees or animals, help explain or even justify God killing them?

[dianaiad]

One assertion that I will make is that babies should not be held morally responsible for their actions no more than trees should. I haven't drawn any conclusions from this assertation but rather I've asked if this opens any door to their being justification for God killing them. You've clearly repeated no in so many posts so I already know your view. Now I leave the door open to anyone who can offer a justifiable reason for the infanticide in the Bible or even if anything in post #1 can be used as a springboard to reach a justified reason.

While you're at it, why don't you find justifications for Jeffrey Dahmer's murderous actions?

It's off-topic.

Why would you want to find justifications for your god's killing of children?

God is suppose to be all-good, has moral standards to not kill the righteous, and wants faithful followers, unlike Jeffrey Dahmer, so that creates a unique circumstance. I know you've already made up your mind but it doesn't hurt to give theists (or anyone really) a chance to answer the questions in topic post.

Why should we give your god a break when we wouldn't give Jeffrey Dahmer a free pass?

If God and/or Dahmer have morally justifiable reasons for their actions, then I'm open for giving them a free pass.

Jeffrey Dahmer didn't kill children, but his crimes are equivalent to your Bible god's crimes, so Jeffrey Dahmer is not off topic.

How are god's children killing sprees different from any modern serial children murderer's spree?

You want to claim that perhaps god's victims were paying for an earlier existence, well, where is reincarnation part of Christian dogma?

You want to make a claim of foreknowledge, well how does that reconcile with "free will".

You are so desperate for justification of god's infant killing tendencies that you will grasp at anything, regardless of how unchristian they may be. Why don't you simply accept that killing infants is unchristian and ungodlike. There's only one way to save your god's image, and that's by abandoning a literal interpretation of the Bible. Other Christians have done this without damaging their faith in god and Jesus.

Everytime this topic comes up, I feel like banging my head against the wall.

What IS it with you guys, anyway?

Please excuse me for going Socratic on y'all, but I guess it's necessary.
Here's the first question:

Define 'killed" or 'Killing." What makes it so bad? Why is it so horrible when one human kills another, even if s/he does it in a way that the victim feels nothing and isn't aware of any danger?

Answer that one, then we can continue....and yeah, I'm serious.

[Angel]

One assertion that I will make is that babies should not be held morally responsible for their actions no more than trees should. I haven't drawn any conclusions from this assertation but rather I've asked if this opens any door to their being justification for God killing them. You've clearly repeated no in so many posts so I already know your view. Now I leave the door open to anyone who can offer a justifiable reason for the infanticide in the Bible or even if anything in post #1 can be used as a springboard to reach a justified reason.

While you're at it, why don't you find justifications for Jeffrey Dahmer's murderous actions?

It's off-topic.

Why would you want to find justifications for your god's killing of children?

God is suppose to be all-good, has moral standards to not kill the righteous, and wants faithful followers, unlike Jeffrey Dahmer, so that creates a unique circumstance. I know you've already made up your mind but it doesn't hurt to give theists (or anyone really) a chance to answer the questions in topic post.

Why should we give your god a break when we wouldn't give Jeffrey Dahmer a free pass?

If God and/or Dahmer have morally justifiable reasons for their actions, then I'm open for giving them a free pass.

Jeffrey Dahmer didn't kill children, but his crimes are equivalent to your Bible god's crimes, so Jeffrey Dahmer is not off topic.

How are god's children killing sprees different from any modern serial children murderer's spree?

I covered this point of yours in my previous post but I'll try again.
The answer to your questions would depend on the answers given for the debate questions in post #1. You've obviously made up your mind already that both are criminals and/or w/out justifiable reasons, but I'm still open to not drawing conclusions and giving theists a chance to answer. I'm not saying God is right, I'm ASKING if God was right - there's a difference which is why I don't think your question do anything to show any wrong or double-standard on my part.

If people want to find or offer justifiable reasons for Dahmer's actions then go right ahead but that is NOT the topic of this thread nor do I have to bring up a question that includes every serial killer's name.

You want to claim that perhaps god's victims were paying for an earlier existence, well, where is reincarnation part of Christian dogma?

Please provide evidence that I said reincarnation (or past lives, etc) is the answer or reason for God killing babies.

You want to make a claim of foreknowledge, well how does that reconcile with "free will".

I did posit foreknowledge, which is also compatible with what the Bible mentions, but I did not say that foreknowledge is justified for killing (but the Bible mentions it as a reason). I clearly said I'm exploring that issue philosophically if you read my response in post #17, 2nd to last response, on this thread. I'm already aware of the issue of free-will when it comes to foreknowledge which is one thing I'll include to work on.

Also refer to post #17 where I show that the Bible mentions foreknowledge as being the basis for God's judgement on babies.

You are so desperate for justification of god's infant killing tendencies that you will grasp at anything, regardless of how unchristian they may be.

Can you please provide evidence that I've reached any conclusions or offered any answers to the debate questions in post #1? If not, I hope that you will apologize or at least retract your statement.

Why don't you simply accept that killing infants is unchristian and ungodlike.

I'm entitled to think and approach issues differently than you. I'm entitled to ask ANY questions I want just as long as they are within the forum rules and guidelines. I'm not sure why you are questioning me about wanting to give theists a chance to answer a question. If you don't like the idea then just simply stop posting here because its clear you've made up your mind and you have NO answers to the OP.

There's only one way to save your god's image, and that's by abandoning a literal interpretation of the Bible. Other Christians have done this without damaging their faith in god and Jesus.

Please don't refer to me as a Christian or theist. If someone provides an explanation then I would sure hope they have evidence for their claims rather than just blindly throwing something out just to cover over the problem.

[SteveC]

Everytime this topic comes up, I feel like banging my head against the wall.

What IS it with you guys, anyway?

Please excuse me for going Socratic on y'all, but I guess it's necessary.
Here's the first question:

Define 'killed" or 'Killing." What makes it so bad? Why is it so horrible when one human kills another, even if s/he does it in a way that the victim feels nothing and isn't aware of any danger?

Answer that one, then we can continue....and yeah, I'm serious.

Sorry, but I don't get involved in word definition discussions. I assume everybody understands what is meant by "kill". Any attempt to define the word is an attempt to deflect this discussion from the killing of innocent children issue.

I didn't start this thread, so my question to you is, what is it with you guys?

[SteveC]

Angel,

I can understand why you don't want to associate your god with Jeffrey Dahmer, but murder is murder and it's not pretty.

As far as reincarnation is concerned, these are your words,

"I am not saying that my view here is perfect, but just because it would offend people does not mean that it is wrong or that I will hide it. I'm trying to find answers that pertain to the OP, so in the process I'm throwing out ideas that a Christian or anyone else may agree with and even add some ideas to it. Sleepyhead in another thread mentioned reincarnation, which I'd wonder if these babies had bad past lives that finally caught up to them."

You were doing the wondering, not anybody else. This lead me to believe that you were considering reincarnation as justification for god's killing of children. Why didn't you simply shoot the idea down? Were you hoping that others would accept the idea as justification, even though you didn't. It appears to be nothing more than a back door method of getting your god off the hook.

SteveC wrote:

You are so desperate for justification of god's infant killing tendencies that you will grasp at anything, regardless of how unchristian they may be.

Angel wrote:

Can you please provide evidence that I've reached any conclusions or offered any answers to the debate questions in post #1? If not, I hope that you will apologize or at least retract your statement.

No, I won't apologize. You're engaging in a philosophical exercise which is designed to offer theories that might satisfy other forum participants, concerning god's killimg of children. I've come to the conclusion, based on other posts and other threads, that you feel your god is perfectly justified in killing children. It's no problem for you, but this thread just might help convince others that god was justified.

I'm entitled to think and approach issues differently than you. I'm entitled to ask ANY questions I want just as long as they are within the forum rules and guidelines. I'm not sure why you are questioning me about wanting to give theists a chance to answer a question. If you don't like the idea then just simply stop posting here because its clear you've made up your mind and you have NO answers to the OP.

Are you the person who determines which questions are appropriate? No one else is entitled to think and approach issues differently than you? If you can't answer my questions then just say so. It's obvious that you don't have any answers.

Please don't refer to me as a Christian or theist. If someone provides an explanation then I would sure hope they have evidence for their claims rather than just blindly throwing something out just to cover over the problem.

Are you a theist? Do you believe that Jesus is the messiah?

Have you recently deleted any "user group" associations that were listed below your avatar?

[dianaiad]

Everytime this topic comes up, I feel like banging my head against the wall.

What IS it with you guys, anyway?

Please excuse me for going Socratic on y'all, but I guess it's necessary.
Here's the first question:

Define 'killed" or 'Killing." What makes it so bad? Why is it so horrible when one human kills another, even if s/he does it in a way that the victim feels nothing and isn't aware of any danger?

Answer that one, then we can continue....and yeah, I'm serious.

Sorry, but I don't get involved in word definition discussions. I assume everybody understands what is meant by "kill". Any attempt to define the word is an attempt to deflect this discussion from the killing of innocent children issue.

I didn't start this thread, so my question to you is, what is it with you guys?

In this case the definition is the problem. In fact, without that very clear definition, the entire discussion of what God does, or does not, do regarding human life is begging a HUGE question.


So humor me. What does 'kill' mean, precisely?

[Janx]

Everytime this topic comes up, I feel like banging my head against the wall.

What IS it with you guys, anyway?

Please excuse me for going Socratic on y'all, but I guess it's necessary.
Here's the first question:

Define 'killed" or 'Killing." What makes it so bad? Why is it so horrible when one human kills another, even if s/he does it in a way that the victim feels nothing and isn't aware of any danger?

Answer that one, then we can continue....and yeah, I'm serious.

I'll bite cuz I'm curious

kill·ing/ˈkiliNG/
Noun: An act of causing death, esp. deliberately.

Why is killing so bad?
Personal reason: conscious beings do now wish to die. Life is the most precious commodity we have thus it is the ultimate mortal transgression against another person. Empathy: we feel pain for those that die - sometimes even for creatures that are not self aware. Social reason: we all have a wish to live a long life - it is best for all to avoid choices that lead to premature death.

Cheers!

[dianaiad]

Angel,

I can understand why you don't want to associate your god with Jeffrey Dahmer, but murder is murder and it's not pretty....

Unless, of course, it's not murder.

So, what makes murder 'murder," and what makes killing 'killing?'

[dianaiad]

Everytime this topic comes up, I feel like banging my head against the wall.

What IS it with you guys, anyway?

Please excuse me for going Socratic on y'all, but I guess it's necessary.
Here's the first question:

Define 'killed" or 'Killing." What makes it so bad? Why is it so horrible when one human kills another, even if s/he does it in a way that the victim feels nothing and isn't aware of any danger?

Answer that one, then we can continue....and yeah, I'm serious.

I'll bite cuz I'm curious

kill·ing/ˈkiliNG/
Noun: An act of causing death, esp. deliberately.

Why is killing so bad?
Personal reason: conscious beings do now wish to die. Life is the most precious commodity we have thus it is the ultimate mortal transgression against another person. Empathy: we feel pain for those that die - sometimes even for creatures that are not self aware. Social reason: we all have a wish to live a long life - it is best for all to avoid choices that lead to premature death.

Cheers!

Thank you, Janx....and I agree.

What is, then, death?

and I'm being serious with this one, too. Really and truly. What does it mean to die?

[Janx]

Everytime this topic comes up, I feel like banging my head against the wall.

What IS it with you guys, anyway?

Please excuse me for going Socratic on y'all, but I guess it's necessary.
Here's the first question:

Define 'killed" or 'Killing." What makes it so bad? Why is it so horrible when one human kills another, even if s/he does it in a way that the victim feels nothing and isn't aware of any danger?

Answer that one, then we can continue....and yeah, I'm serious.

I'll bite cuz I'm curious

kill·ing/ˈkiliNG/
Noun: An act of causing death, esp. deliberately.

Why is killing so bad?
Personal reason: conscious beings do now wish to die. Life is the most precious commodity we have thus it is the ultimate mortal transgression against another person. Empathy: we feel pain for those that die - sometimes even for creatures that are not self aware. Social reason: we all have a wish to live a long life - it is best for all to avoid choices that lead to premature death.

Cheers!

Thank you, Janx....and I agree.

What is, then, death?

and I'm being serious with this one, too. Really and truly. What does it mean to die?

death/deTH/Noun
1. The action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism.

[dianaiad]

Everytime this topic comes up, I feel like banging my head against the wall.

What IS it with you guys, anyway?

Please excuse me for going Socratic on y'all, but I guess it's necessary.
Here's the first question:

Define 'killed" or 'Killing." What makes it so bad? Why is it so horrible when one human kills another, even if s/he does it in a way that the victim feels nothing and isn't aware of any danger?

Answer that one, then we can continue....and yeah, I'm serious.

I'll bite cuz I'm curious

kill·ing/ˈkiliNG/
Noun: An act of causing death, esp. deliberately.

Why is killing so bad?
Personal reason: conscious beings do now wish to die. Life is the most precious commodity we have thus it is the ultimate mortal transgression against another person. Empathy: we feel pain for those that die - sometimes even for creatures that are not self aware. Social reason: we all have a wish to live a long life - it is best for all to avoid choices that lead to premature death.

Cheers!

Thank you, Janx....and I agree.

What is, then, death?

and I'm being serious with this one, too. Really and truly. What does it mean to die?

death/deTH/Noun
1. The action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism.

Thank you, Janx, for going along with me on this.

I think we are getting to the question that is being begged here.

Would it be murder; would it be death as in the above definition, if the life of the person or organism did not, after all, END?

We, as mortal beings, can't see beyond our physical deaths. For US, the definitions you have just given must and do apply. It doesn't matter how much faith we might have that life continues past mortal death...we don't KNOW, so we are held to that standard and that definition. Anytime that physical life is ended at the hands of a mortal human being, that definition applies.

However, God Himself cannot be held to that definition. If there is a deity, then everything that goes with that concept has to also be considered--and one of those things, usually, is that we live on after our mortal deaths; that we continue to exist. In other words, mortal death is NOT the end of life, according to the above definition. We might believe in it, even have great faith in it, but only He KNOWS it.

I think the closest thing we mortals have ever come to this is back when the pioneers would leave the Old World for a new place. The people they left behind will never see, nor hear from, them again. They will never know what happened to them. They are, to the folks they left behind, as dead as if they had been physically buried and mourned.

However, the pioneers knew they were still living, and so did the captains of the ships that took them away from their families. Is it reasonable, then, to charge those captains with murder because they moved the pioneers from one continent to another?

Because that's the only thing that one can charge deity with; moving people. NOT 'murder,' because if HE did the deed, then those whose mortal lives He ended did not actually die, did they?

Indeed, only if He does not exist can those He is blamed for killing have been murdered. But then, if He doesn't exist, how can anybody blame Him?

Either way, I think you can see the question being begged.