YAHWEH creates evil, then drowns creation for it!

[21stCenturyIconoclast]

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"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and I create evil, I the LORD do all these things." ( Isaiah 45:7)

"Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6)

The reason that the Hebrew Christian Yahweh god, of which is one of many gods in the Before Common Era, decides to drown the entire world accept Noah and family, is because his creation are evil and unworthy of existence (Genesis 6:5). The irony is that Yahweh created evil in the first place as shown above in the passages in question. Yahweh is also omniscient (1 John 3:20) , therefore he knew his creation would falter and he would have to kill them, therefore Christians and Jews worship a god that is Schizophrenic!

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." (Genesis 6:5-7)

Christians, can an innocent zygote or fetus ever be evil enough where they need to be destroyed within their mothers womb in the Great Flood, as your Yahweh caused abortions in this instance? Can an innocent baby really be evil where they need to die a horrible death by hopelessly treading water in Yahwehs flood for hours as they cry out in horror to their mothers; as their muscles burned due to large amounts of lactic acid production. Where once they finally give up, they went under, and held their breaths, where acidic carbon dioxide eroded their lungs until the unbearable pain forced them to inhale where there was no air for them to breathe. All the while, the ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god is watching.

Then the water brought into their little lungs robbed their little bodies of oxygen, causing them to go numb. As water violently rushed in and out of their little chests, it finally laid their heavily breathing and slowly dying bodies to the bottom of the ocean as the inhaled water caused their lungs to tear and bleed profusely. All the while, the ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god is watching.

As their blood supply dwindled, their innocent hearts slowly came to a halt. Even so, their brains continued to process information for another couple of minutes. They were patently aware that death was imminent, yet they could do nothing to prevent it. We can only imagine that their final thoughts would have been on what they did to deserve such horrific treatment and death. All the while, the ever loving and forgiving Yahweh god is watching.


When Christians understand why you dismiss all the other gods in the Before Common Era, then you will understand why I dismiss yours.

[Hamsaka]

The "spin doctoring" has begun! Incredible how Christians love to rewrite their Yahweh's word to be acceptable to todays acceptances and morals.

Some Christians don't see themselves having any other choice in the matter.

ToTN asked 'who' is discerning enough to separate the dung from the diamonds? The fundamentalist movement of the late 19th century asked themselves that very question -- and decided no human being is capable. Period. Therefore, to prevent the depravity of human nature interfering with scripture (and to prevent the whole shebang, in their minds, falling apart in front of them), scripture must be literally interpreted.

Inerrantist believers (as you well know) are forced to defend the indefensible. They put themselves in that situation, not anyone else.

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 1 by 21stCenturyIconoclast]

Have you compared the verse with other translations and versions to get a better idea of what is being said?

The Hebrew word for evil is ra, it can also mean "envious," "bad," "ugly," "ungenerous," "gloomy," "malignant," or, in the case you mention, "calamitous." (Genesis 2:9; 40:7; 41:3; Exodus 33:4; Deuteronomy 6:22; 28:35; Proverbs 23:6; 28:22)

Jehovah God created "calamity" through justice. Consider a child, who's parents have forbidden him to play in the busy street. To the child this is bad (Hebrew ra). But the parents know that for the child to disobey is bad, and could lead to calamity. If the child does disobey it could lead to two possible bad results. He could get hurt, even killed by traffic, or he could get caught and punished.

CEB uses "doom." AMP and ISV uses "disaster." CJB uses "woe."CEV uses "sorrow." ESV uses "calamity."

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1 by 21stCenturyIconoclast]

Have you compared the verse with other translations and versions to get a better idea of what is being said?

The Hebrew word for evil is ra, it can also mean "envious," "bad," "ugly," "ungenerous," "gloomy," "malignant," or, in the case you mention, "calamitous." (Genesis 2:9; 40:7; 41:3; Exodus 33:4; Deuteronomy 6:22; 28:35; Proverbs 23:6; 28:22)

Jehovah God created "calamity" through justice. Consider a child, who's parents have forbidden him to play in the busy street. To the child this is bad (Hebrew ra). But the parents know that for the child to disobey is bad, and could lead to calamity. If the child does disobey it could lead to two possible bad results. He could get hurt, even killed by traffic, or he could get caught and punished.

CEB uses "doom." AMP and ISV uses "disaster." CJB uses "woe."CEV uses "sorrow." ESV uses "calamity."

This is a nice bit of transparent and ineffective sophistry. However you want to translate the words, the claim in Genesis is that God made man and the other animals and called them 'good.' Then he repented of his creation. He did not offer correction. He responded with total annihilation.

To use your example, the parents who were concerned the child would be injured in the street, drowned him for venturing too close to traffic.

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 23 by Danmark]

This is a nice bit of transparent and ineffective sophistry. However you want to translate the words, the claim in Genesis is that God made man and the other animals and called them 'good.' Then he repented of his creation. He did not offer correction. He responded with total annihilation.

To an extent, this is true, and suggests there were no practical alternatives.

Jehovah created man and animals and called them good, and they were, but he also warned of a stipulation in the continuation of good. The correction comes from the examination that was raised by the deception of Satan. In a basic sense God allowed the question of his rightful sovereignty to be questioned.

The Jerusalem Bible puts it, in my opinion, the best, when it states with a footnote on Genesis 2:17: "This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on Gods sovereignty, a sin of pride."

The tree of the knowledge of good and bad represented Jehovah's rightful Sovereignty as creator. It was Adam's decision, out of fear of losing his companion Eve, that decided to reject Jehovah's guidance and protection. As his offspring, we inherited that environment.

To use your example, the parents who were concerned the child would be injured in the street, drowned him for venturing too close to traffic.

No.

[Zzyzx]

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This is a nice bit of transparent and ineffective sophistry.

I appreciate the creativity of word games / re-definitions / word salads used by Apologists to extricate themselves from the corner that their own literature paints them into.

Their God supposedly said "I create evil" according to many common-use Bibles. However, when opponents point that out the response is "Well he really didn't say (or mean) evil, he meant _________" (fill in the blank with a different word).

Perhaps that comes with the territory when attempting to defend ancient tales as truthful and accurate representation of a proposed supernatural entity.

[Zzyzx]

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To an extent, this is true, and suggests there were no practical alternatives.

Is this to say that a supposedly all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect God could not come up with an alternative to killing all humans and animals except a few on an ark?

Being an irreverent sort, I suggest that if God couldn't figure out a less draconian way to combat evil or Satan he should have consulted Non-Theists who could suggest ways to use divine magic to solve the problem. His supposed solution didn't work anyway since evil still is rampant.

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 25 by Zzyzx]

I appreciate the creativity of word games / re-definitions / word salads used by Apologists to extricate themselves from the corner that their own literature paints them into.

Their God supposedly said "I create evil" according to many common-use Bibles. However, when opponents point that out the response is "Well he really didn't say (or mean) evil, he meant _________" (fill in the blank with a different word).

Perhaps that comes with the territory when attempting to defend ancient tales as truthful and accurate representation of a proposed supernatural entity.

Okay, well, of the list of possible translations for the Hebrew ra, which seems to you problematic? They all seem fine to me. Even evil. The difficulty arises in the implication of evil, which is a relative term. What is evil to you may not be to me.

The heart of the issue is what is meant by him creating evil, I suppose, from your perspective? From the verse in question, do you think that it implies that God created evil other than what I have suggested?

What do you think it means that God created the Hebrew ra and why do you think that?

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 26 by Zzyzx]

Is this to say that a supposedly all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect God could not come up with an alternative to killing all humans and animals except a few on an ark?

I dare say it was a successful venture.

What makes you think that Jehovah God is all-knowing and all-powerful and how would you know a "perfect" god from an imperfect one? Who's call is that?

Being an irreverent sort, I suggest that if God couldn't figure out a less draconian way to combat evil or Satan he should have consulted Non-Theists who could suggest ways to use divine magic to solve the problem. His supposed solution didn't work anyway since evil still is rampant.

I don't think the term "divine magic" is, uh, well . . . serious.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to David Henson]

What makes you think that Jehovah God is all-knowing and all-powerful and how would you know a "perfect" god from an imperfect one? Who's call is that?

Personally I don't for a moment suppose that the Jehovah God, or any other God, has ever existed. It does specifically say in the Bible however that God is omnipotent. Having the power to do anything presupposes both omniscience and omnipresence. So unless you want to dispute the truth of the Bible....

Rev.:
[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

[Zzyzx]

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I appreciate the creativity of word games / re-definitions / word salads used by Apologists to extricate themselves from the corner that their own literature paints them into.

Their God supposedly said "I create evil" according to many common-use Bibles. However, when opponents point that out the response is "Well he really didn't say (or mean) evil, he meant _________" (fill in the blank with a different word).

Perhaps that comes with the territory when attempting to defend ancient tales as truthful and accurate representation of a proposed supernatural entity.

Okay, well, of the list of possible translations for the Hebrew ra, which seems to you problematic?

I have no preference or problem since I am not a linguist or a Hebrew translator.

What I find objectionable is an Apologist claiming that words in common-use English language Bibles are wrong or mis-translated while substituting a different word that change the meaning of what appears in the Bible.

They all seem fine to me. Even evil. The difficulty arises in the implication of evil, which is a relative term.

Agreed that the implication of evil is subjective.

What is evil to you may not be to me.

That is almost sure to be the case.

The heart of the issue is what is meant by him creating evil, I suppose, from your perspective?

I take it from what is supposed to be the horse's mouth " a God saying that he created good and evil " as though those were opposing terms.

From the verse in question, do you think that it implies that God created evil other than what I have suggested?

Your suggestions seem a bit diffuse to me. I use a working definition of evil as the offset of good.

What do you think it means that God created the Hebrew ra and why do you think that?

I do not accept that God created anything, including the Hebrew ra. I observe that Bible stories say that he did " and that he created good and its offset evil.

Is this to say that a supposedly all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect God could not come up with an alternative to killing all humans and animals except a few on an ark?

I dare say it was a successful venture.

If the intent was to eliminate evil, how can it be regarded as successful if evil still exists (perhaps to a greater extent than pre-flood)?

What makes you think that Jehovah God is all-knowing and all-powerful and how would you know a "perfect" god from an imperfect one?

I do not think that ANY of the gods are all-knowing or all-powerful or perfect " except in the minds or imagination of Believers.

However, I observe that much of Christian dogma and literature seem to emphasize that their God is omniscient, omnipotent and perfect. If Apologists wish to claim that God is limited in knowledge, power, perfection I have no objection " but that seems to conflict with much of what is claimed in Christendom.

Who's call is that?

Whoever is stating an opinion " because opinion is all there is in the matter.

Being an irreverent sort, I suggest that if God couldn't figure out a less draconian way to combat evil or Satan he should have consulted Non-Theists who could suggest ways to use divine magic to solve the problem. His supposed solution didn't work anyway since evil still is rampant.

I don't think the term "divine magic" is, uh, well . . . serious.

My suggestion was a bit light-hearted, not intended to be taken seriously. I have not had and do not expect communication or consultant requests from any of the gods " though I am open to the possibility should one of them be real and be so inclined.