Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

[Zzyzx]

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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

Since Bible writers and promoters have a vested interest in glorifying their favorite God(s) they could be expected to bad-mouth / demean / discredit the competition.

Since there is no assurance that there is only one “god� (or three-in-one for Christendom), the opposition might be one (or more) of the thousands of proposed gods. In fact, the only “evidence� for any of them consists of unverified tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions, beliefs.

Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 20 by Peds nurse]

Hi PN. It is good to see that you can find at least some time in your busy life for our debates.

If we cannot address in the Bible, or other Abrahamic religious books what it says about Satan, which is the only recorded source of his existence, how can we defend our position that Satan is not a god?

You CAN say “The Bible says such and such about Satan� and perhaps cite passages.

However, all that establishes is what the Bible says. It does NOT establish what, if anything, Satan IS or what “his� characteristics, capabilities, limitations ARE.

The Bible may be authoritative and proof of truth elsewhere – but NOT in these debates. Thus we have a “level playing field� where no point of view or ideology is given superior or preferential treatment.

I fully realize that there is NO extra-biblical proof / evidence that “Satan� is or is not a “god�. However, I also realize that many people THINK they know about “Satan� after reading one book (and its derivatives), listening to sermons, and thinking about it (forming personal opinions).

The intent of this thread is to demonstrate that stories and beliefs about “Satan� cannot be substantiated with anything other than the stories and beliefs that make the claim -- a classic example of circular reasoning ("what the book says is true because the book says it is true").

I do not envy those who attempt to defend the indefensible (in this venue) and would NOT undertake to defend a position for which I could not supply strong supporting evidence from multiple disconnected sources.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 20 by Peds nurse]

Well, you may define Satan using Hebrew, but Hebrew is notoriously unreliable, and it is usually better to look for the origins of the story in another culture.

So, to answer your question, how can you address Satan without using the Bible? Well Satan, at least from Job comes from a Egyptian story that is so identical and undocumented that any differences are lost in the sands of time.

BUT, if you assume it was two other gods playing with poor Job, you can derive something about Satan.

Job doesn't make out very well under either god. They are both completely sociopathic towards Job.

Faith, is certainly punished, then a reward plastered back together. (Wouldn't it be nice if God has resurrected Job's family, instead of replacing them? - But Egyptian gods couldn't do this...)

So lending credence to this, and stepping outside the OT, you can further the discussion.

[JLB32168]

If you believe that the Bible was written to throw Jehovah in a positive light, and remove that bias, Satan could actually look very heroic.

Yes, I suppose that if you remove the fact that his raison d'être was to retain the power of death over creation while plotting to kill the most virtuous human that ever lived, and who taught others to live likewise, then Satan could actually look very heroic.

Charles Manson could also look great if we just forget all about that unpleasantness that occurred at10050 Cielo Drive, Beverly Crest, CA in August of 1969.

Christianity has no special place or recognition except in select sub-forums.

And I suppose that might matter but the point was that one can call Satan a god if s/he follows a novel interpretation of the term. Besides that, this website is particularly concerned with Christianity (cf. Debate Christianity . . . [the only religion specifically mentioned) and it’s just silly to pretend otherwise.

Perhaps that is in accord with what Bible writers thought or said. Is there assurance they had actual knowledge of supernatural beings and their characteristics?

Start a thread on it. A god is defined a particular way in Abrahamic religions. Satan’s existence doesn’t jibe w/it; therefore, no follower of an Abrahamic religion will acknowledge Satan as a god. You don’t have to agree with that position; no one is asking you to

Bible stories claim that God made everything.

Death isn’t a thing that can be made. It describes an action – the action of the deterioration of life. Acts aren’t created. Only the things that do them are; therefore, God didn’t make death any more than God made “run� or “walk� or “eat�.

How do we know that “Satan provoked people to kill a good man�?

You cited Satan, who is mentioned in the NT text. I’m using your same source – the NT text.

[Zzyzx]

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If you believe that the Bible was written to throw Jehovah in a positive light, and remove that bias, Satan could actually look very heroic.

Yes, I suppose that if you remove the fact that his raison d'être was to retain the power of death over creation while plotting to kill the most virtuous human that ever lived, and who taught others to live likewise, then Satan could actually look very heroic.

Remove the “FACT�?

That has NOT been established as a fact. It is part of a story that has not been shown to be true and accurate.

Charles Manson could also look great if we just forget all about that unpleasantness that occurred at10050 Cielo Drive, Beverly Crest, CA in August of 1969.

Or one could make up a different story.

Christianity has no special place or recognition except in select sub-forums.

And I suppose that might matter but the point was that one can call Satan a god if s/he follows a novel interpretation of the term. Besides that, this website is particularly concerned with Christianity (cf. Debate Christianity . . . [the only religion specifically mentioned) and it’s just silly to pretend otherwise.

Those who think that this website is devoted to or exclusive to Christianity should PM Otseng, site owner and administrator, to ask for clarification (or read Forum Introduction and Rules, C&A Guidelines).

Perhaps that is in accord with what Bible writers thought or said. Is there assurance they had actual knowledge of supernatural beings and their characteristics?

Start a thread on it. A god is defined a particular way in Abrahamic religions. Satan’s existence doesn’t jibe w/it; therefore, no follower of an Abrahamic religion will acknowledge Satan as a god. You don’t have to agree with that position; no one is asking you to

I am not bound to accept the Christian / Abrahamic religion position regarding gods or devils.

Bible stories claim that God made everything.

Death isn’t a thing that can be made. It describes an action – the action of the deterioration of life. Acts aren’t created. Only the things that do them are; therefore, God didn’t make death any more than God made “run� or “walk� or “eat�.

Thus, God did not make everything in the universe.

How do we know that “Satan provoked people to kill a good man�?

You cited Satan, who is mentioned in the NT text. I’m using your same source – the NT text.

Because something appears in NT stories is NOT assurance that it happened.

[marco]

Christian teaching for deities are that they are omnipotent and uncreated. Satan is neither; therefore, Satan is not properly termed a god since a creature can’t be a god.

To get round the problem of God creating evil some theologians affirm that Satan or Evil is co-eternal with God or Good. Obviously one theological speculation is as worthy of acceptance as another, given the impossibility of proof.

Well he didn't introduce death into the world - that was Yahweh.

The text does not say that death was God’s punishment. It doesn’t even say that God made it – not that death can be made. [/quote]

Satan seems to have driven God to introducing death, God being the author of all things, including scorpions.

We shouldn’t blame Satan for being a bad guy when he provoked people to kill a good man?

If true, it was a touch unkind. If false, Satan has been cruelly libelled. I wonder where the evidence is. I'm still backing Yahweh as the arch-villain.

[marco]

If we cannot address in the Bible, or other Abrahamic religious books what it says about Satan, which is the only recorded source of his existence, how can we defend our position that Satan is not a god?

When we are examining myths it is reasonable to identify Satan with the evil gods that appear in other mythologies. There doesn't seem to be a good reason to have Good personified while ignoring Evil. Evil is for ever challenging good. So an examination of the evil being in the Bible leads us to suppose he fits the description of a god. Naturally, those who wrote about him, would be unwilling to give him this title and we can understand that. But he seems awfully powerful, able to appear when he wants to and possessed of all the apparatus that we would associate with a god. Confirmation from either side is not forthcoming so it is fair to give Satan the benefit of the doubt.

Best regards

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 4 by catnip]

"Rockin' and Flockin' the hood"
- Blastcat
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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

No. Satan is equivalent to sin and death. He is compared to, but is not actually Luciifer, a real world king (we now know, although that was forgotten for a time). Satan, in the Book of Job, is shown to be God's prosecutor in God's court. Over time, his legend morphs two ways: biblically and in popular culture. What most people believe about Satan is more from medieval mythology than what is written.

How do you know what Satan is or isn't?
Is it by way of what you think the Bible says?

I will have to remind you that the OP contains this :

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

As I said above, Satan is equated with sin and death in scripture and temptation.

Yes, we know the Bible stories. And we also know that Christians interpret these stories in many different ways. The question here is "what if" Satan had been a rival god, and the Bible talks trash about him .. in an ancient version of a rap war:

"My god is better than your god.. you know that God is good.
Satan be hatin'
But Yahweh be rockin' and flockin' the hood. "
- Blastcat

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 20 by Peds nurse]

t;]Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Satan is defined as: Satan (Hebrew: שָּׂטָן‎‎ satan, meaning "enemy" or "adversary";[1] Arabic: شيطان‎‎ shaitan, meaning; "astray", "distant", or sometimes "devil") is a figure appearing in the texts of the Abrahamic religions[2][3] who brings evil and temptation, and is known as the deceiver who leads humanity astray.

If we cannot address in the Bible, or other Abrahamic religious books what it says about Satan, which is the only recorded source of his existence, how can we defend our position that Satan is not a god?

Peds, you have hit the nail on the head.

If we don't take the Bible as the authority on what the Bible says, what ARE we left with? I'd say... nothing at all but the dreams the wishes the hopes and prayers of the believers and the pronouncements of the preachers.

That's what atheists have been pointing out for about a few thousand years now.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 20 by Peds nurse]

t;]Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Satan is defined as: Satan (Hebrew: שָּׂטָן‎‎ satan, meaning "enemy" or "adversary";[1] Arabic: شيطان‎‎ shaitan, meaning; "astray", "distant", or sometimes "devil") is a figure appearing in the texts of the Abrahamic religions[2][3] who brings evil and temptation, and is known as the deceiver who leads humanity astray.

If we cannot address in the Bible, or other Abrahamic religious books what it says about Satan, which is the only recorded source of his existence, how can we defend our position that Satan is not a god?

Peds, you have hit the nail on the head.

If we don't take the Bible as the authority on what the Bible says, what ARE we left with? I'd say... nothing at all but the dreams the wishes the hopes and prayers of the believers and the pronouncements of the preachers.

That's what atheists have been pointing out for about a few thousand years now.

Hey Mr. Blastcat! I hope this finds you well and....Joyful!

I hate to let the wind out of your sails a bit, but I was referring to the debate about Satan. I can find the presence of God, apart from the Bible, as God gives us His Spirit, but since Satan has not the same qualities as God, the only reference to him is in the Bible...

[Willum]

[Replying to Peds nurse]

You haven't left us much to work with PN.

But since you have brought it up, and it seems a way forward.
How do you know that Satan isn't the one communicating with you? He is supposed to be powerful and dishonest. Certainly he isn't going to tell you he is anything other that something benign.

So how do you know?

And, finally to make this impersonal again, and get back on topic, wouldn't that explain why Christians murder so many, and do not follow the precepts of Christianity. Killing so many, always falling back into sin, etc..

How do you know from the rival god? Because "you know?" A very dangerous assumption if all you are going by is how you feel about the Lord and Savior, who is lting about being a L&S.

You aren't Jesus, or mystically empowered, so you can't know from God or the Devil, can you?