Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

[Zzyzx]

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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

Since Bible writers and promoters have a vested interest in glorifying their favorite God(s) they could be expected to bad-mouth / demean / discredit the competition.

Since there is no assurance that there is only one “god� (or three-in-one for Christendom), the opposition might be one (or more) of the thousands of proposed gods. In fact, the only “evidence� for any of them consists of unverified tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions, beliefs.

Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?

[JLB32168]

Astute readers will realise that Zzyzx is creating a hypothetical scenario here, designed to get theists thinking about their own beliefs.

Astute theists realize that when some people ask questions of these type often repair to the standard demand for proof of God’s existence when the theist presents what s/he thinks is a reasoned reply.

Why do they believe Satan is evil? Are they really being objective or are they simply taken religious literature and mythology as fact without even thinking it through.

If one, in this case Satan, seeks to affect the death of another – Jesus in this case – then most would agree that there has to be a justification for it and if there is no moral justification for it, the person who affected the death of the other person is termed an “evil person.� If the justification were valid, then a representative sample of reasonable people would normally conclude that the person seeking to affect the death of another isn’t necessarily evil and might indeed be virtuous.

In this particular case, Satan sought the death of Jesus. Jesus taught people that one loved God by loving his/her neighbor, to wit, by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, housing the homeless, and other such acts normally termed “virtues�. Most people would agree that it is an evil person who provokes people to kill a person who teaches these virtues since one is hard pressed to determine how killing a teacher of the virtues, who also practices those same virtues, can in any way be justified.

Perhaps there is also a curiosity as to why Christians believe Satan is evil when all they have to go by is their own religious propaganda?

That statement casts all theists as mindless cattle devoid of critical thinking skills who are easily swayed by propaganda. It is insulting and is one of the reasons why atheists are disliked by so many theists. We get what we give after all.

However, is it really necessary or appropriate to harass someone over the topic of a specific thread? Do the questions make you uncomfortable? One could just move on to the next thread.

My question was designed to establish that the question was asked in good faith and that would be evinced by a statement akin to, “I understand why you believe the way you do – not that I accept that your deity exists, but I understand that you haven’t arrived at your beliefs as though they were the product of mindless Borg-esque, group-think brainwashing.�

Theists on this website theists rarely get such agreeable disagreement. Instead almost each and every response is met with the standard retreat into, “You can’t even prove your stupid deity exists so your belief is stupid (and you are equally stupid by extension)� or some other uncivil response akin to that.

[marco]

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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

Yes, of course Satan is a god. Though he is regarded as the antithesis of good he doesn't come over as bad at all, at least not in the way other bad gods were described.

Yahweh is a bit more frightening and brutal than Satan. Poor Satan wanders around roaring like a lion. Like Vulcan he was thrown out of heaven but doesn't seem to have suffered any physical deformities as a result. Islam incorporated Satan into its mythology, so obviously tales of Satan impressed the youthful Muhammad when he was hearing the stories that would later be the Koran.

[JLB32168]

The lack of proof or evidence that gods (or “devils� or “demons�) does not prevent Theists from declaring they are REAL.

Yes, they believe their beliefs are real but that doesn’t really address your question, which assumes for the sake of discussion that they might be real and if so, why should one automatically assume Satan is the evil one.

OC nailed my second place reason for asking “silly� questions – causing Theists to think about what they have been taught to believe.

That suggests that Satan’s motives as recorded in the text are open to interpretation. I’ve provided what I feel is a rational for determining that his actions are those of an evil person.

I don’t actually expect any atheist here to say, “Okay – I see why you regard Satan as evil,� which concedes that the theist has supported his point after thoughtful consideration (I don’t know how any reasonable person could conclude that killing a teacher of the virtues, who is also virtuous himself, can be classified as anything other than “evil�.)

They may be sincerely interested in considering alternatives to the religious stories they have probably been told over and over since infancy.

Then we have similar motives for being here. My responses here are generally designed to show how embracing atheist secularism is not the panacea its advocates claim it is – that atheist secularism produces the narrow-minded, intolerant convictions that its advocates decry in others.

At the same time, I do not want to discourage Bible Defenders from posting their "explanations", excuses and interpretations (including word play, definition stretching, diversionary tactics, etc) because they provide material to dispute.

I’m not sure why you have explanations in quotation marks. “Excuses� is a subjective feelings/emotions based (and inherently illogical) value judgment (another much loved tool of atheists/skeptics on this board – something else I like to expose.) In short, most atheist “questions�* are ridiculing masquerading as debate (and not doing a good job at it.)
[center]
[font=Times New Roman]*I put the word question in parentheses because questions should be asked in good faith and with honesty of intention to understand why another party thinks the way s/he does. That rarely seems to be the case here. Instead questions are asked but rarely is any attempt made to appreciate the respondent’s viewpoint – which doesn’t entail accepting the respondent’s answer is true. Instead, the discussion immediately turns to one of demands for the proof of God’s existence and the dismissal of the respondent as having the mind of a mediaeval peasant.[/center][/font]

[JLB32168]

Yes, of course Satan is a god.

That would depend upon the definition of “God/god� being used. The Abrahamic deity is uncreated and omnipotent – aspects not proper to Satan; therefore, Satan isn’t a god as the term would commonly be defined in that respect.

Though he is regarded as the antithesis of good he doesn't come over as bad at all, at least not in the way other bad gods were described.

I’m having difficulty seeing how having the power of death – introducing death into the creation in fact – and seeking to kill a miracle working teacher of the virtues whose purpose was to destroy the power of death makes one anything other than bad.

Yahweh is a bit more frightening and brutal than Satan.

Do you base this upon some of the things that He commanded in the OT? Why do you exclude all of the other things taught in the OT – such as forbidding the exploitation of the widow and orphan?

This exclusive reliance upon the mandated destructions of the peoples of Canaan strikes me more as axe-grinding than objective consideration of all evidence at our disposal.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

Since Bible writers and promoters have a vested interest in glorifying their favorite God(s) they could be expected to bad-mouth / demean / discredit the competition.

Since there is no assurance that there is only one “god� (or three-in-one for Christendom), the opposition might be one (or more) of the thousands of proposed gods. In fact, the only “evidence� for any of them consists of unverified tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions, beliefs.

Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?

The Jewish Encyclopedia
JUDAISM – ...though sin and death are occasionally ascribed to him (a href="/articles/13219-satan">see Satana>), he can seduce and harm only as far as God permits him, and in the end must work for good (B. B. 16a). "God is ...inseparably connected with the Jewish nation as the depository and guardian of the truths held by it for mankind. Furthermore, it is as a law, or system of laws, given by God on Sinai that Judaism is chiefly represented .
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/search?ut ... mit=search

[marco]

Yes, of course Satan is a god.

That would depend upon the definition of “God/god� being used. The Abrahamic deity is uncreated and omnipotent – aspects not proper to Satan; therefore, Satan isn’t a god as the term would commonly be defined in that respect.

You are right in using the term "Abrahamic" for that suggests a god sprung from beliefs of Abraham. Anyway, gods come into existence though many channels, depending on your mythology. Satan, a supernatural being with infinite powers, is every inch a god.

I’m having difficulty seeing how having the power of death – introducing death into the creation in fact – and seeking to kill a miracle working teacher of the virtues whose purpose was to destroy the power of death makes one anything other than bad.

Well he didn't introduce death into the world - that was Yahweh. Satan was his excuse. "I don't want to introduce death but you've gone and made me do it."

Did he seek to kill a miracle worker? God engineered that himself, because he "so loved the world." I agree the myth is hard to understand, but blame not Satan.

Do you base this upon some of the things that He commanded in the OT? Why do you exclude all of the other things taught in the OT – such as forbidding the exploitation of the widow and orphan?

To be brutal your every action need not qualify as brutality. A few will do.

[JLB32168]

Anyway, gods come into existence though many channels, depending on your mythology. Satan, a supernatural being with infinite powers, is every inch a god.

You’re just repeating what you said earlier w/o addressing the rebuttal. This board is “Debate Christianity.� Christian teaching for deities are that they are omnipotent and uncreated. Satan is neither; therefore, Satan is not properly termed a god since a creature can’t be a god.

Well he didn't introduce death into the world - that was Yahweh.

The text does not say that death was God’s punishment. It doesn’t even say that God made it – not that death can be made.

Did he seek to kill a miracle worker? God engineered that himself, because he "so loved the world." I agree the myth is hard to understand, but blame not Satan.

We shouldn’t blame Satan for being a bad guy when he provoked people to kill a good man.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

[Willum]

[Replying to JLB32168]

If you believe that the Bible was written to throw Jehovah in a positive light, and remove that bias, Satan could actually look very heroic.

Defying a superior being.
Giving us freedom and knowledge at great sacrifice to himself.
Powerful.

How do we know it was Satan and his demons that were evil? God and the angels were no prize themselves.

Satan certainly didn't cause the flood, destroy Sodom, etc..

Who side would you be on, assuming the Bible did paint a biased picture?

[Zzyzx]

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Anyway, gods come into existence though many channels, depending on your mythology. Satan, a supernatural being with infinite powers, is every inch a god.

You’re just repeating what you said earlier w/o addressing the rebuttal.

This board is “Debate Christianity.�

Perhaps one should read beyond the site name. Notice that even that contains “& Religion�.

Notice also that sub-headers on pages include:

Civil and engaging debate on Christianity and religious issues
Rational and civil debate between members of all religions and world views
Respectful Religious Debates
Civil. Respectful. Intelligent. Thoughtful. Challenging.

Christianity has no special place or recognition except in select sub-forums.

Christian teaching for deities are that they are omnipotent and uncreated. Satan is neither; therefore, Satan is not properly termed a god since a creature can’t be a god.

Perhaps that is in accord with what Bible writers thought or said. Is there assurance they had actual knowledge of supernatural beings and their characteristics?

Well he didn't introduce death into the world - that was Yahweh.

The text does not say that death was God’s punishment. It doesn’t even say that God made it – not that death can be made.

Bible stories claim that God made everything. Some entities are supposedly immortal and some are not according to the tales. If some will die, God must have “created� death (according to the tales).

Did he seek to kill a miracle worker? God engineered that himself, because he "so loved the world." I agree the myth is hard to understand, but blame not Satan.

We shouldn’t blame Satan for being a bad guy when he provoked people to kill a good man.

How do we know that “Satan provoked people to kill a good man�?

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Disagreement is reason-to-be for debate websites.

[Peds nurse]

t;]Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Hello, my most wonderful friend, Mr.Z!

Satan is defined as: Satan (Hebrew: שָּׂטָן‎‎ satan, meaning "enemy" or "adversary";[1] Arabic: شيطان‎‎ shaitan, meaning; "astray", "distant", or sometimes "devil") is a figure appearing in the texts of the Abrahamic religions[2][3] who brings evil and temptation, and is known as the deceiver who leads humanity astray.

If we cannot address in the Bible, or other Abrahamic religious books what it says about Satan, which is the only recorded source of his existence, how can we defend our position that Satan is not a god?

Always a pleasure!