Born again?

[McCulloch]

Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Jesus said

• Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
  Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

In what sense do Christians claim to have become born anew? Do the foolish become wise? Does the person get a new personality? What?

[Goat]

It seems to me, in the cases I am thinking of, 'accepting the lord and savior for the remission of their sins' was a block to wisdom. Begining 'born again' was all about them. In their interest about what sacrifice Jesus was supposed to have done for them.. they forgot about some essential messages that are attributed to Jesus that seem so essential to living right. "What ever you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me".

Again, point well taken.

Of course, I am coming from a works oriented tradition, and think it is someone actions that count, much more than their beliefs. It is the results that matter, and the concept of 'being born again' seems to get in the way of those results in many people.

I too come from a "works oriented" tradition where actions are important. Don't forget though that the individual's actions are run through the prism of what they are capable of and not what you or I may think should be their actions. This makes a BIG difference. In other words, one man' s "wisdom" is another's "foolishness" - don't think for a second that it should be a similar template for all.

I am not one to judge what they 'are' capable of. I can only judge their actions, and accept their actions are based on their belief. In some, being 'born again' seems to let people's actions be better (help fighting addiction is a benefit), but
I can see people whose belief structure went away from religion that had equal benefit to their behavior.

[Vanguard]

I haven't a beef with you on this though it is obvious to me you are seeking to make the point that accepting the Savior in one's life is no different in degree than many other important decisions one can make.

I do challenge the assertion that it is different, not in degree but in kind. We could point out many different decisions we could make some great and some small. None of them could be described as a rebirth, not even the decision to believe in one or another messiah.

We can agree to disagree. Assuming a belief in the Savior's role, it would come as a surprise to me that you see no distinction. Given the reality of your beliefs, your position is to be expected.

And so what's the point?

There is a claim that in some way, Christians start a new life when they become Christian. It appears to me that this is just a form of therapeutic self delusion. Believe that you are a new person and you can let go of any guilt that you may have, but there is no basis for the belief that you are reborn in reality.

But it has to be a form of therapeutic self-delusion if you do not believe in what the Atonement posits. I understand and in that regard, you have said nothing new. Your OP however does not contemplate that point.

As an aside, I do not "let go" of any guilt I may have though I am a believer. How do you reconcile that with your position?

[Vanguard]

I am not one to judge what they 'are' capable of. I can only judge their actions, and accept their actions are based on their belief. In some, being 'born again' seems to let people's actions be better (help fighting addiction is a benefit), but I can see people whose belief structure went away from religion that had equal benefit to their behavior.

Undoubtedly. I too see this with whom I am aquainted. My two younger brothers left the faith a few years ago and arguably are "more balanced" than they ever were. This is not necessarily a statement on the veracity of Christianity's message however.

[Goat]

I am not one to judge what they 'are' capable of. I can only judge their actions, and accept their actions are based on their belief. In some, being 'born again' seems to let people's actions be better (help fighting addiction is a benefit), but I can see people whose belief structure went away from religion that had equal benefit to their behavior.

Undoubtedly. I too see this with whom I am aquainted. My two younger brothers left the faith a few years ago and arguably are "more balanced" than they ever were. This is not necessarily a statement on the veracity of Christianity's message however.

No, it is not. However, it seems to me that too many Christians miss a good portion of Christianities message, because they concentrate on THEMSELVES, rather than the
teachings of the religion. They look at the sacrifice for THEM, rather than look at the rather hilel style of Pharsicitc Judaism message.

[Vanguard]

I am not one to judge what they 'are' capable of. I can only judge their actions, and accept their actions are based on their belief. In some, being 'born again' seems to let people's actions be better (help fighting addiction is a benefit), but I can see people whose belief structure went away from religion that had equal benefit to their behavior.

Undoubtedly. I too see this with whom I am aquainted. My two younger brothers left the faith a few years ago and arguably are "more balanced" than they ever were. This is not necessarily a statement on the veracity of Christianity's message however.

No, it is not. However, it seems to me that too many Christians miss a good portion of Christianities message, because they concentrate on THEMSELVES, rather than the
teachings of the religion. They look at the sacrifice for THEM, rather than look at the rather hilel style of Pharsicitc Judaism message.

Well, I'll call it not being able to "show their wisdom" to the naked eye. Unfortunately, this collective message contributes to driving otherwise good souls away from Christianity and IMO my own brothers are good examples of this exodus from the faith.

As an aside, we need more "common man" Chrisitanity within the masses able to show both a critical-mindedness as well as an acceptance of others (certainly the finest qualities wisdom can offer). By the same token, those who are not considered believers (or at least undecided ) would do well to enter into more dialogue with those Christians capable of appreciating a difference of opinion rather than hanging out amongst the more fundamentalist arm of the faith as evidenced by far too many threads on this forum. You know, picking the lower lying fruit might give quick, temporary satisfaction but it is short lived and ultimately very unsatisfying.

[Goat]

I am not one to judge what they 'are' capable of. I can only judge their actions, and accept their actions are based on their belief. In some, being 'born again' seems to let people's actions be better (help fighting addiction is a benefit), but I can see people whose belief structure went away from religion that had equal benefit to their behavior.

Undoubtedly. I too see this with whom I am aquainted. My two younger brothers left the faith a few years ago and arguably are "more balanced" than they ever were. This is not necessarily a statement on the veracity of Christianity's message however.

No, it is not. However, it seems to me that too many Christians miss a good portion of Christianities message, because they concentrate on THEMSELVES, rather than the
teachings of the religion. They look at the sacrifice for THEM, rather than look at the rather hilel style of Pharsicitc Judaism message.

Well, I'll call it not being able to "show their wisdom" to the naked eye. Unfortunately, this collective message contributes to driving otherwise good souls away from Christianity and IMO my own brothers are good examples of this exodus from the faith.

As an aside, we need more "common man" Chrisitanity within the masses able to show both a critical-mindedness as well as an acceptance of others (certainly the finest qualities wisdom can offer). By the same token, those who are not considered believers (or at least undecided ) would do well to enter into more dialogue with those Christians capable of appreciating a difference of opinion rather than hanging out amongst the more fundamentalist arm of the faith as evidenced by far too many threads on this forum. You know, picking the lower lying fruit might give quick, temporary satisfaction but it is short lived and ultimately very unsatisfying.

Fortunately for Christianity, there are many examples of the thoughtful Christianity on this board.

[McCulloch]

True Christianity depends on this rebirth, yet those who claim to have experienced it cannot objectively of convincingly describe it.

probably because it hinges on the word "spirit." Rebirth is through the spirit. The only way to describe "spirit" is "spirit." God is spirit. But that does not help much either.

You're right. So understanding the Christian idea of being born again requires an understanding of spirit. And, of course, spirit defies definition, measurement and any objective evidence to show that it exists.

There's no delusion, which is why I can say "God is" rather than "I believe God is." But I cannot produce my experience for you, nor can I produce God for you.

I don't see a distinction between you saying "God is" and you saying "I believe God is". You my be confident in your belief in God, but without an objective demonstration, it is simply your belief. How do you know that it is not a delusion? How can you know?

Or is it that the new birth is just a metaphor, not related to something concrete and real?

Oh, it is very real

How do you know? What do you mean by very real? How can it be distinguished from a delusion?

As an aside, I do not "let go" of any guilt I may have though I am a believer. How do you reconcile that with your position?

Isn't one of the central points about the gospel message is that you get forgiveness from God? Forgiveness means that you do not have to be burdened by the guilt of your sins, right?

[Vanguard]

As an aside, I do not "let go" of any guilt I may have though I am a believer. How do you reconcile that with your position?

Isn't one of the central points about the gospel message is that you get forgiveness from God? Forgiveness means that you do not have to be burdened by the guilt of your sins, right?

One man's burden is another's opportunity for growth. No, I do not believe that all guilt is always taken away once you believe.

[twobitsmedia]

True Christianity depends on this rebirth, yet those who claim to have experienced it cannot objectively of convincingly describe it.

probably because it hinges on the word "spirit." Rebirth is through the spirit. The only way to describe "spirit" is "spirit." God is spirit. But that does not help much either.

You're right. So understanding the Christian idea of being born again requires an understanding of spirit. And, of course, spirit defies definition, measurement and any objective evidence to show that it exists.

It seems to defy an objective definition to those who have not experienced "Spirit." Those who have are quite aware of it.

There's no delusion, which is why I can say "God is" rather than "I believe God is." But I cannot produce my experience for you, nor can I produce God for you.

I don't see a distinction between you saying "God is" and you saying "I believe God is". You my be confident in your belief in God, but without an objective demonstration, it is simply your belief. How do you know that it is not a delusion? How can you know?

I don't have beliefs about the existence of God. I know God exists. And, this, is the "civil" way of telling me I could be lying about my exeperience: "You my be confident in your belief in God, but without an objective demonstration, it is simply your belief."

But think about your question: How do you know it is not delusion? How many people really answer and say, oh yeah, I guess it is delusion after all. If someone IS suffering from a delusion, what do you think they will answer? How does somone suffering from a delusion differentiate anything?

Or is it that the new birth is just a metaphor, not related to something concrete and real?

Oh, it is very real

How do you know? What do you mean by very real? How can it be distinguished from a delusion?

When it happens, you will know. If it does not, then you will always think it is possibly a delusion and assume I am deluded.

[McCulloch]

It seems to defy an objective definition to those who have not experienced "Spirit." Those who have are quite aware of it.

Yet this is not true for anything else. We have objective definitions for sound and colour even though the blind and deaf do not experience them. We even have objective definitions for quantum events, even though no one experiences them directly.

I don't have beliefs about the existence of God. I know God exists. And, this, is the "civil" way of telling me I could be lying about my experience: "You my be confident in your belief in God, but without an objective demonstration, it is simply your belief."

Anything that I say that I know, I can specify how I know it to be true. Furthermore, each thing known has a degree of confidence. I am more sure of my own dislike for eggplant than I am of the tale of King Arthur.

But think about your question: How do you know it is not delusion? How many people really answer and say, oh yeah, I guess it is delusion after all. If someone IS suffering from a delusion, what do you think they will answer? How does someone suffering from a delusion differentiate anything?

We cannot rely entirely on our own understanding and our own feelings. Is it measurable? Can it be objectively validated? If not, then you don't know you simply believe.

When it happens, you will know. If it does not, then you will always think it is possibly a delusion and assume I am deluded.

The same could be said for the Buddhist and enlightenment. Are you admitting that God and the spiritual rebirth is subjective?