Bible Contradictions

[mwtech]

I used to be a Christian and only recently become an atheist after studying the Bible enough to notice the flaws. I believe the Bible in itself to be contradictory enough to prove itself wrong, and I enjoy discussing it with other people, especially Christians who disagree. I would really like to have a one on one debate with any Christian who thinks that they have a logical answer for the contradictions in the Bible. The one rule I have is that you can't make a claim without evidence, whether from the Bible or any other source. I am interested in logical conversation, and I don't believe that any Christian can refute the contradictions I have found without making up some rationalization that has no evidence or logical base.

[earl]

Danielthedragon-
"how do you resolve -------that his message would not be distorted?"


My observation is that the bible is not penned by God.
Distortions,contradictions , problems ,etc associated with a bible is man's inability to preserve such a text.
Problems such as memory,experience,recorded events accurately,language and misinformation and the list goes on is typical.
If God was to "ensure" his undistorted message then man could not be the penman.

So why did not God pen it himself?You will have to ask him yourself.
However if the biblical characters Adam and Eve were here then you could get the message directly from the horse's mouth as would the rest of the world since they would not under normal conditions have died which would make them superhuman stock.

[earl]

danielthedragon--

Biblically -the reading of the beginning of time on this Earth was not without tribulation of gigantic biblical proportions because there was war in heaven first which migrated here causing all records ,events and documentation to become distorted all because of ,as stated in paper 53 of the Urantia Book that Lucifer became an atheist - who at one point in his life said he did not believe God exists.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 259 by earl]

My observation is that the bible is not penned by God.

It doesn't need to be. The point is why would an Omniscient Omnipresent Omnipotent god allow his message to be distorted? There is no reason to let this happen if it will increase the odds of people rejecting said gods existence. An all knowing god would not have given the responsibility to fallible man in the first place. Or he would have waited until the internet so that even if the message was given to man it would not be lost or destroyed manipulated or somehow altered in anyway.

So the only observable conclusion I can ascertain from your response is that the god you worship is not particularly wise not particularly powerful and has no ability to predict the future.

So now you have a logical contradiction. In fact I would argue that the bible's mere existence negates the existence of the god it describes.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 260 by earl]

Biblically -the reading of the beginning of time on this Earth was not without tribulation of gigantic biblical proportions because there was war in heaven first which migrated here causing all records ,events and documentation to become distorted all because of ,as stated in paper 53 of the Urantia Book that Lucifer became an atheist - who at one point in his life said he did not believe God exists.

The bible does not support this in any shape form or fashion. Furthermore I don't view the bible as fact much less the Urantia book which originated in Chicago during the 20's.

[KenRU]

[Replying to Wootah]

Sorry for the typo, it's Mark 8:30

Both Matthew and Mark contain contradictions about spreading the word that Jesus is the son of god.

Why?

[Danmark]

I'm surprised you quote from The Urantia Book, a work of science fiction. Doesn't the Bible itself contain enough science fiction, without relying on an additional book of science fiction to interpret its characters?

'The Urantia Book has been enjoyed by some as a form of science fiction, historical fiction or fantasy. The Urantia Book is noted for its high level of internal consistency and an advanced writing style. Skeptic Martin Gardner, in a book otherwise highly critical of The Urantia Book, writes that it is "highly imaginative" and that the "cosmology outrivals in fantasy the cosmology of any science-fiction work known to me." Gooch says that for nonbelievers, the book is a mixture of being "fascinating, inspiring, compelling, haunting, entertaining, annoying, incomprehensible, and always wordy."'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book

[Strider324]

There is no end to the contradictions we find in the bible. But I would think that something as critical to the message as "How can I be saved?" would be completely without ambiguity.

Instead, what we get is:

From Acts 13:48, we learn that some gentiles are 'ordained' to be saved, BUT....

Rom 10:13 assures us that "...everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved..", BUT...

Eph 1:4 indicates that only those who were chosen before Time will be saved - BUT...

1John 2:2 gives hope for the whole world, BUT....

2 Thes 2:13 has Paul assure us that some were chosen "in the beginning", BUT...

Acts 16:30 has Jesus promise that if you just believe - don't have to be baptised, doesn't matter what crimes you commit - not only will YOU be saved, but yer whole famn damily as well!!

I'm sorry, but this is what is known among my peers as a clusterfuck. It is too much to ask for this religion to present a cogent exposition of its most fundamental premise?

[earl]

Danielthedragon-


Your post on your observable conclusion is funny.
You speak as if you know how to be all wise,all powerful and predict the future.
And wait for the internet to come? Really? .
You go ahead and tell God that you know how to deliver a message better than he does.


No big deal that the bible don't support the UB neither does the Jew religion support Jesus.
Its funny you don't dare believe something because it appeared in recent history.
Nothing more here

[earl]

Danmark --
I am not surprised I quote from the UB.
The Bible is silent on the contradictions.

[arian]

[Replying to post 253 by Danmark]

@mwtech - I appreciate you noting it wasn't a contradiction.

It's a most excellent example of the literalism in atheistic readings of the bible. Since we both agree the angel (I think it was God) could win easily then why would you not rather consider why it lost?

I did. I suggested that it was so he could carry out the metaphor. I assume this story was written to illistrate a point that could only be made if the angel (who you think is God) lost.

But instead a biblical literalism that is beyond my capabilities to read into the text is suggested - and I'm the biblical literalist.

There is no difference between atheist literalism and Christian literalism. Literal means literal. The definition of literalism is "the interpretation of words in their usual or most basic sense."

I will break the passage down and interpret the words in their most usual sense, taking into consideration their usual meaning in the Bible, not just in modern language.

Genesis 32:24
24 And Jacob was left alone, and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
The word man here: ’îš in Hebrew, Strong's concordance definition (numbered by how many times they occur in Bible) advisers* (2), friends* (1), life (1), man (26), man's (4), mankind (1), men (6), mortal (1), mortal man (1), ordinary (1), scoffers* (1), scorners* (1), soldiers* (3). On the contrary, Numbers 23:19 says "God is not man, that he should lie....." Pairing these two verses, there is no way that Jacob is wrestling with God, because Elohim is not ’îš
Never has this word been used to describe God.
25 And when the man saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint as he wrestled with him.
Pretty clear here. The man (which is all he has been reffered to as thus far) has the power to put Jacob's thigh out of socket with the touch of his hand, but does so because he hadn't beaten Jacob. The hebrew word meaning to prevail here is "y�-ḵ�l" which is used in other places to mean, "to be able, have power". So he is not able to prevail over Jacb even though he has the power to disjiont his thigh. If I saw this in a TV show, I would be calling "plot hole", but maybe the meaning is clarified in later verses.

26 And the man said, “Let me go, for the day breaketh.� And he said, “I will not let thee go, unless thou bless me.�

The original Hebrew doesn't actually say "man", but instead just says he, so no clarification on the identity of the being wrestling with Jacob yet. Jacob asking him to bless him could indicate that the being is God or an angel, but plenty of humans bless other humans in the name of God, so Jacob could just as easily be asking a man as far as he knows.
27 And he said unto him, “What is thy name?� And he said, “Jacob.�

So the wrestler asks Jacob his name. If we are going with the usual implication of words, we would assume this being asks because he does not already know. This would imply that it is not an omnicient being, but it would also raise the question of why he was wrestling with Jacob in the first place if he was doing it for God's purposes and didn't know who Jacob was. We could assume that he asks in the same way God asks Adam where he is in chapter 2, although that is getting away from the most usual meaning of words. It seems to make the most sense though. That would mean you have to go beyond literal reading of the text to come to that conclusion.

Wow, and here I was wasting my time in the science forum debating the most redundant subject; 'evolution', and missed all this good stuff. I love your OP mwtech, and even though you think the responses are somewhat off topic, it brings up some amazing points pro and con.

As for the last above quote where Jacob is wrestling with a man, the Bible is pretty clear it was God using a human body.

You got the other part right on the nose where you compare God/man asking what was Jacobs name to when God/man (Adam heard him walking in the Garden, so God wasn't in the Spirit) asked Adam where he was? God could have easily appeared right next to Adam and Eve hiding in the bushes and yell: "WHY ARE YOU TWO HIDING?" and right there would have been the first recorded 'heart attack', .. lol. So we can understand that there was a reason why God made Himself be known walking in the Garden, and asking them where they were? Self awareness, it started when they heard Gods footsteps. "Oh shoot, .. now we're in deep shh.. trouble!"

We do that to our kids all the time, like when they break something: "Whattt, .. DID you Doo?"
I mean come on, .. we heard the noise, we see the glass all over the floor, .. right? It isn't that we don't know what happened, but to make the child self-aware of it. And my son, just like Adam, would be pointing at his twin sister .. "The twin sister you gave me made me do it!" lol.

Likewise;
"What's your name?"
"My name is Jacob!" Not that God didn't know, it was for official reasons; 'that's right, your name IS Jacob, but guess what, pay attention now because I'm going to change your name!'

28 And he said, “Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.�

The original Hebrew says "you have struggled" instead of "for as a prince hast thou power". It doesn't say which he just struggled with while wrestling, although it seems odd to think that he has struggled with God and prevailed. But we can't say anything about who he is wrestling with without inserting assumptions beyond the literal reading of this passage.

Genesis 32:28 (NKJV)
28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.�

No need to assume anything, it's pretty clear who Jacob was wrestling with, in bold.

29 And Jacob asked him, and said, “Tell me, I pray thee, thy name.� And he said, “Why is it that thou dost ask after my name?� And he blessed him there.

It isn't clear to me who blesses who here, and looking at the original language doesn't make it any clearer to me. The Bible seems to have issues with clarifying pronouns. The other wrestler asks Jacob why he wants to know his name. This again raises the question of whether this wrestler asks because he lacks the knowledge of the answer or if it is just rhetorical. The former would indicate that the wrestler is not God, the latter clirifies nothing other than the fact that this interaction occurred so a point could be made to future readers.

Again, it is pretty clear who Jacob was wrestling with, it was with God AND with a man, or God using a body of an ordinary man. God blessed Jacob and gave him a new name; "Israel"

Genesis 32:27 So He said to him, “What is your name?�
He said, “Jacob.�
28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.�
29 Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.�
And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?� And He blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.�

As for; “Why is it that you ask about My name?� look at the answer God (by and through the fiery Angel) gave to Moses;

Exodus 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?�
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.� And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’�

God has no body and no name because there is "no other God besides Him". So don't seek for a body (idols) or ask for a name, nor should anyone place a name on God.
"I Am Who I Am" says it all.

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel [that is, The face of God]: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.�

This verse says that Jacob sees God face to face. This certainly answers the question of who the wrestler is, but it introduces a contradiction. Exodus 33:20 says "But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.� John 1:18 says "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." There is no way to interpret this verse literally without introducing a contradiction. The only way to keep the Bible inerrant here is to conclude that Jacob has not literally seen God face to face, and it is a metaphor for something. This makes it impossible to interpret the words in their most usual sense. Also, assuming this is not a contradiction would also mean making the conclusion that the wrestler is not God.

Moses seen God also, so did Ishmael and Hagar and were afraid AND happy to have stayed alive, .. but the Bible is clear that what they saw were Angels whom God was using to speak through. Like you quoted:

Exodus 33:20 says "But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.�
John 1:18 says "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

God is Spirit, no one can see God, but His Son Word has declared Him. Now with our spirit, through the renewing of our mind/spirit through Christ's revelation we too can see God, and know Him.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.