"I am NOT an animal"

[Zzyzx]

.
"I am NOT an animal"

Many who do not appear to have much knowledge of biology seem indignant when learning that H. sapiens are classified as animals (alternatives being plant and virus). I do not recall ever hearing a Non-Theist object. 1) Is there something about religion that causes this?

You see I am NOT an animal, never was and never in a billion years will I evolve to be one, my family tree all the way back to Adam don't have one ape in it.

2) Why be upset, indignant or in denial about a biological / taxonomic classification?

3) Since humans differ from other animals only in degree (some mental and physical characteristics), what is the objection to recognizing that they are animals?

4) Is anything other than religion (and possibly narcissism) involved?


In the quoted statement someone (whose theological position apparently defies description) claims knowledge of his family tree back to Adam – as though that proves the claimant is not an animal. However, if the hypothetical Adam was human (H. sapiens), he (Adam) classifies as an animal.

[Zzyzx]

.

So the Bibles claim that Jesus was the Son of God cannot be used as proof that the Bible Jesus (not outside of the Bible Religiously created Jesus's which are many, and the Bible warns us of them) ?? Like using J.M. Barrie's book on Peter Pan to justify peter Pan is not allowed?

Careful reading of the Guidelines allows one to understand that the Bible can be used to show what the bible says about Jesus (or Peter Pan if you wish). However, the Bible CANNOT be used to prove that what is said about Jesus is true.

If that is still confusing or unclear I can be of no further help.

What? Please forgive my ignorance, but after 2,000 years, where else would we find the best description of Bible God, Bible Jesus and what he taught other than the Bible?

I have no idea where one can find accurate and truthful information, if any exists, about the Bible God or Jesus.

So what I understand this rule saying is that the Book of Mormon, or the Jay-Z Bible, or the Satanic Bible has equal authority on Bible-God and Bible Jesus and what they said as the Bible??

Oh hell no, .. I object your honor!

Feel free to PM Otseng to express concerns and objections. However, it might not be prudent to say "Hell no" to his Forum Rules and Guidelines. That would likely be the last straw.

[OnceConvinced]

What happened to squint?

That should teach him not to use Godly wisdom against Omega and his followers! Or stand up for himself that he is not an animal! How dare he?

Godly wisdom would lead one to take care how they tread and not violate forum rules. Godly wisdom would also be recognized and acclaimed.

Recognized by whom? Don't you remember what they did to Jesus?

Perhaps Jesus wasn’t as wise as he claimed to be?

Pro 18:6
A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating.

Pro 16:7
When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

Pro 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

Wow, .. that is the most evil, degrading, insulting, unfair, unjust comment against Jesus Christ (the Bible Jesus Christ, not the Christian sun-god) I have ever heard. I'm just waiting how many 'likes' you will get for this post?

Seriously? All I am doing is posting legitimate scripture that shows that Jesus perhaps wasn’t as righteous as he claims to be. Do you just want to throw those sacred scriptures away? Do you just want to ignore them and claim that when it comes to Jesus they don’t apply?

If that scripture is true and if Jesus ways were pleasing to God, then he wouldn’t have had his enemies baying for his blood. Perhaps the Jews are right and Jesus was not the messiah? Is that really such an evil thing to suggest?

To me I don’t see it as remotely evil. It’s no more evil than suggesting that maybe Luke Skywalker was really working for the dark side or that Santa Claus was a closet paedophile.

So starting from Abel, to Job, to Jesus, according to your above quotes from the Bible, they had it coming?

I’m simply saying what God says in his word that if your ways are pleasing to him that even your enemies will be at peace with you. Do you want to argue with God?

No wonder there are so many ex-Christians who left the Religion, if this is what you've learned from them over the 30 years, .. good choice.

No I did not learn that as a Christian. Christians employ double standards. I no longer do that. I now look at the bible at face value.

Why is it that just because I see certain messages in the bible now as a non-believer that Christians like you want to act like it was the way I saw it when I was a Christian? When I was a Christian I saw Jesus as the son of God. What I see now is NOT what I believed as a Christian. Surely you would understand that. I am no longer wearing the Christian rose-coloured glasses I once wore.

But sure, go ahead. Try to make out I had these views when I was a Christian and that’s the reason I no longer am one. You will be completely and utterly wrong. There are many legitimate reasons why I am not a Christian today.

A wise man exhibits self control:

James 1:26, "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight reign on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless."

I told you many times, "I am NOT religious", and I don't want to give the wrong impression.

Do you or have you conducted any of these religious rituals? If so then you are clearly religious:

1) Speaking in tongues.
2) Anointing with oil.
3) Casting out of Demons Raising hands to God. Baptism.
4) Communion.
5) Attending Church.
6) Singing together as a congregation.
7) Prayer.
8) Daily reading of the bible.

And if you take the bible seriously, then you would know true Christianity is definitely a religion. You would in fact be arguing with James:

James 1:26 & 27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Read it again,

No, I have read it already and it’s quite clear. How about you quit evading my questions. Have you or have you not conducted even one of those religious rituals in that list? If so then you have practised religion rituals. Do you tell me you never pray? That’s a RELIGIOUS ritual Arian! I wonder, do you close your eyes when you pray? Religion! Do you give thanks and blessings before meals? Religion!

Colossians 4:5-6
Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

.. have I left a question concerning my Lord Jesus Christ, or who is our heavenly Father, .. or interpreting the Bible unanswered?
Am I look warm on important issues?
Is my speech bland?

I’ve never claimed such things about you.

So why quote Colossians to me?

To point out this bit here of course…!

“Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt,…�

Now I do admit my debates are not very graceful, but considering the times and how evil is being condoned and good is being literally banned from public, the Word of God has now become a sword. It may not look very graceful when it splits people open revealing the deepest secrets of their hearts that's true, but it isn't meant to look graceful either, right?

I have already commented on posts of yours that are in mocking tones. Definitely not graceful and seasoned with salt. Thus can you really claim to be walking in wisdom? Based on your own admission that your debates are not very graceful, then you are not.

When we are called to tell of coming judgment, pointing out evil and such, it never seems graceful, I don't believe it supposed to!?

The posts you have made I have commented on where clearly in a mocking tone. Some of the statements you made were an attempt to ridicule and were just not taking the debates seriously. Unless you can show that you are graceful and that your words are seasoned with salt, why would anyone believe you were a spokesperson from God, or for that matter even a true Christian?

There are many Christians on this site who are quite capable of debating respectfully and without condescending and mocking tones. These Christians do not get warnings from moderators and do not get put on probation. They are at peace with their “enemy�. They are respected by their “enemy�. Some are even acknowledged as having wisdom.

Matthew 10:34
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

So you’re claiming to be Jesus now?

Did I ever claim something like that? But I'm glad you remember who said that, Jesus, not Odon/arian, .. right?

Remember you said:

“Now I do admit my debates are not very graceful, but considering the times and how evil is being condoned and good is being literally banned from public, the Word of God has now become a sword. It may not look very graceful when it splits people open revealing the deepest secrets of their hearts that's true, but it isn't meant to look graceful either, right?�

And then followed up with this scripture:

“Matthew 10:34
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.�

Are you not using this scripture to justify ungracefulness? As if you had the same rights as Jesus?

Pro 16:7
When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

That is SO true, isn't it?

Funny that Jesus’s enemies did not live at peace with him, isn’t it? What does that tell you about Jesus ways?

.. that wicked people hate do-gooders? That's why they killed the Kennedy brothers and also Martin Luther King and millions of Disciples of Christ over the years isn't it?

Hold on, hold on that’s not what it’s saying. It does not say: “When a man’s ways are pleasing to the lord people will hate your because you’re good.� In fact it says completely the opposite. That they will be AT PEACE with you! The scripture quite clearly PROMISES this. Is that a lie? Perhaps it’s a lie?

If it’s a promise than that means neither Jesus, nor the Kennedy Brothers nor Martin Luther King were pleasing God. It’s the only rational and logical explanation one can make based on that bible promise.

Or is it yet another bible contradiction? Another bible lie?

Imagine if everyone lived in a mansion (which is what Jesus is preparing for those who love him), do you think the Queen of England, or the special Illuminated Ones would want to live down the street with common folk in their castles? Or wait in line back of a plumber to take off with their jets at the airport runway?

Greed is jealous and proud also, this is why they build such powerful armies to protect their wealth. They also want to keep the workers working, and enjoying time off for vacation less and less (offering them double time to work over their vacations and holydays), need creates dependence, and the wicked create the addiction (mortgage, credit cards) and they supply their addiction with just enough money to survive month to month, just enough drugs to keep them working all the overtime, and of course religion to keep them from God so they would keep coming back seeking, and also to keep these goats keep sending and risking their children's lives to protect their great wealth, and wars to create more wealth for themselves.

How is any of this relevant to what we are discussing?

Why are you even arguing with me? Take this argument up with your God not me. God’s word says that if your ways are pleasing to him you enemies will be at peace with you. Pretty simple promise on God’s part there. If your ways are not pleasing to God, then your enemies will be raging against you.

Tell me, why is it that an uneducated dumb idiot like me can see this, yet those with higher degrees and with education can't? Want the answer?
The dumb unschooled idiot can see, because his eyes have been opened by the Holy Spirit, while the schooled, smart, intelligent with all kinds of degrees lack the Holy spirit so they walk around in darkness lead by none other than the wicked one, Lucifer.

Err no, the Christian sees something a certain way because he has his rose-colored glasses on when he reads the bible. Not because of any holy spirit. The holy spirit can’t be shown to be anything more than a fantasy.

Want to try me and see if I have Gods Holy Spirit or not? Don't pick easy targets like religions who receive their information through divining lying spirits, try me and see if my non-religious interpretation is weak or not?

Why would I believe you have a super power called the holy spirit in you? How exactly can I test that this super power actually IS in you? From what I can see based on the bible teaching the holy spirit is NOT in you.

The bible teaches about the fruits of the holy spirit, by which we can tell who the true Christians are and which ones really do have the holy spirit. I do not see any of those fruits in you.

Well something must have kept you going for 30 years, if not the threat of hell, what was it? Wait, was it the 'slicing of the neck ear to ear' hand signal? Is that it? Why would you leave when so far I can't see any reason for you to have left?

Ok now you’re starting to mock again. I kept going for 30 years because I loved the lord, I completely believed in him and his teachings. I believed that I was serving him and that he was blessing me. I believed he was doing things in my life. I believed I had things he wanted me to do.

I would offer you my story via PM which you could read about my walk as a Christian and how I came to disbelief, but I get the feeling you would just start mocking it.

You still hold on to the same Biblical interpretations you learned from them,

What? No of course I don’t keep hold of the same biblical interpretations I did as a Christian. No way at all! Some of how I see the bible is the same but not all of it. Many of my views have changed since losing my faith and becoming an ex-Christian. I'm quite capable of coming to my own conclusions about the bible now, I don't need any Christians to tell me what it says.

so what could you have possibly gained from leaving? New and better friends, .. what?

There was nothing to gain, only loss. Or so it seemed at the time. I was heartbroken when I lost my faith. I fought against it with all my might. I didn't chose to lose my faith. I didn't choose become an ex-Christian. It was a heart wrenching realization I came to that I no longer believed. For many years I cried out to God and prayed desperately that he would help me believe again. All I got was silence. One day I realised that I was never going to hear from him because he just didn't exist. It was never something I wanted. There was never any attraction to atheism. None whatsoever. I never wanted to be an ex-Christian.

I mean come on. As a Christian I believed God had the whole world in his hands, that he had great plans for me and that one day I'd be with him in Heaven, living in paradise for all eternity. Why would I ever want to give up that? Why? That's just nuts!

[OnceConvinced]

Never mind, .. I retract my comment. Of course one scripture, especially OT scripture can be used to apply to Jesus Christ, His whole purpose for coming here was to fulfill every dot of the law. So where is the NT quotes where this can be used against Jesus Christ?

Where does it say it doesn't apply?

Isn't the whole of the bible God's word? So if something applies in the OT, it must surely apply in the NT unless otherwise stated. After all, God doesn't change right?

Oh yea I forgot, non needed, this is not about Biblical fairness or justice, besides .. the Bible cannot be used to prove anything.

Wow, a Christian who actually admits that?

Atheist can use it to accuse,

I used it just to point out that maybe Jesus isn't all he's cracked up to be. There are many other reasons I don't believe Jesus was all he's cracked up to be too. Would you like to explain why that scripture doesn't apply to Jesus?

but Followers of Jesus are not allowed to know why the accusations. Got it. Actually in todays world, that is what's called fair, but Christians using the Bible to counter wicked evil claims is what? Oh yea, unfair, hateful, inhuman or so 'other human'.

Christians DO attempt to use the bible to try to judge non-believers. So why can't the bible be used to judge Christians themselves?

Thank you for the reminder that Jesus just may have been evil and that is why good people hate Him so, .. instead of reminding everyone to get back on topic: "I am NOT an animal". Unless the above Debaters suggestion implied that Jesus was just an animal too, would explain why he was so evil that they tortured Him to death?

You claim you are not an animal but have given no good reasons as to why you're not an animal. I'm also trying to figure out why you would consider it so shameful. I'm proud to be an animal that has learnt how to control my animal instincts and live as a civilised being.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 252 by OnceConvinced]

Perhaps Jesus wasn’t as wise as he claimed to be?

Pro 18:6
A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating.

Pro 16:7
When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

Pro 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall

Logically ... of course ... if p then q <> if q then p.

So if a fool then strife does not mean if strife then a fool.

Also if pride then destroyed <> if destroyed then proud.

Finally many of God's enemies are at peace with God because of Jesus. If Jesus had not pleased God then none of us would have God's mercy.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 261 by OnceConvinced]

I do think some of your theology is/was off if you were taught God has great plans for you. I guess it depends on what 'great plans' means to you.

[arian]

.

So the Bibles claim that Jesus was the Son of God cannot be used as proof that the Bible Jesus (not outside of the Bible Religiously created Jesus's which are many, and the Bible warns us of them) ?? Like using J.M. Barrie's book on Peter Pan to justify peter Pan is not allowed?

Careful reading of the Guidelines allows one to understand that the Bible can be used to show what the bible says about Jesus (or Peter Pan if you wish). However, the Bible CANNOT be used to prove that what is said about Jesus is true.

If that is still confusing or unclear I can be of no further help.

Too bad cause I was going to ask you if we could use J.M. Barrie's book on Peter Pan and what he said about Peter Pan is true or not? In there Mr. Barrie says Peter Pan can fly, any objections? Anyone?
(If you're going to make the Bible into a Bronze-aged fairytale, it would be fair if you could keep it that way and not switch it on me and now take it as if it was real and get me banned. Are you claiming now that 'talking donkeys' are possible in the real world? Do you now believe in the possibility of virgin births? According to one book, Peter Pan can fly, according to another, donkeys could talk, only if I claim the latter to be true, I can get banned for!?)

What? Please forgive my ignorance, but after 2,000 years, where else would we find the best description of Bible God, Bible Jesus and what he taught other than the Bible?

I have no idea where one can find accurate and truthful information, if any exists, about the Bible God or Jesus.

May I suggest the Bible??

So what I understand this rule saying is that the Book of Mormon, or the Jay-Z Bible, or the Satanic Bible has equal authority on Bible-God and Bible Jesus and what they said as the Bible??

Oh hell no, .. I object your honor!

Feel free to PM Otseng to express concerns and objections.

Oh no, .. I have no objections to the Forum Rules, it's how a fellow debater and moderator interprets those rules I have a concern with. And forgive me for mentioning it, but remember this is not refuting any rules, but a debater. You can't just switch between an acting debater and moderator in the same debate, .. or can you?

However, it might not be prudent to say "Hell no" to his Forum Rules and Guidelines. That would likely be the last straw.

See what I mean? Did I say Hell No to the Forum Rules, or asking if this is how you interpret Forum Rules? Read it again: "So what I understand this rule saying is that the Book of Mormon, or the Jay-Z Bible, or the Satanic Bible has equal authority on Bible-God and Bible Jesus and what they said as the Bible??

Oh hell no, .. I object your honor!"

I know that the Forum Rules would never equate the 'Book of Mormon, or the Jay-Z Bible, or the Satanic Bible' as equal authority on the Bible.

I still love you Z!

Oh yea, .. and I'm still not an animal, .. yet anyways.

[arian]

Perhaps Jesus wasn’t as wise as he claimed to be?

Pro 18:6
A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating.

Pro 16:7
When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

Pro 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

Wow, .. that is the most evil, degrading, insulting, unfair, unjust comment against Jesus Christ (the Bible Jesus Christ, not the Christian sun-god) I have ever heard. I'm just waiting how many 'likes' you will get for this post?

Seriously? All I am doing is posting legitimate scripture that shows that Jesus perhaps wasn’t as righteous as he claims to be. Do you just want to throw those sacred scriptures away? Do you just want to ignore them and claim that when it comes to Jesus they don’t apply?

Let's ask 2 billion Christians, Scholars who actually read the NT Bible about Jesus Christ and see if those scriptures you quoted apply? I will stick with: that is the most evil, degrading, insulting, unfair, unjust comment against Jesus Christ I have ever heard!

You want to actually debate what I said instead of throwing insults at my Lord who is described very clearly in the Bible as "keeper of the whole law"? You can start by quoting Jesus actions that those verses you quoted would fit Him, so let's debate it and stop being so insulting?

If that scripture is true and if Jesus ways were pleasing to God, then he wouldn’t have had his enemies baying for his blood. Perhaps the Jews are right and Jesus was not the messiah? Is that really such an evil thing to suggest?

This response is for those who may have never read the Bible, or who just browsed through it briefly and claim they are now Christians or ex-Christians because of it; In the Bible it explains everything that Jesus did, and that His Father God, .. Bible God, (not to be confused with Lucifer god) said including: "This is my beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased, .. Hear Him!" You the readers can see if my fellow debater friend here is justified in such ugly and horrendous accusations? If you can find some things that Jesus did to justify such cruel punishment, by all means present it and we can debate it.

To me I don’t see it as remotely evil. It’s no more evil than suggesting that maybe Luke Skywalker was really working for the dark side or that Santa Claus was a closet paedophile.

Sure, if you can show me clips where it would seem like Luke Skywalker worked for the dark side, we could analyze it and debate it, otherwise you are just trying to piss all the Star Wars fans off, millions of them, .. or simply being belligerent!?

As for Santa Claus, I never read any Santa book where Santa brings toys for the good children, and comes down the chimney and takes and molests those in the closet who were bad!? But again, if you could point out any Santa Book where you read to suggest that, please present it so we can debate it? Otherwise your remarks are unwarranted and very cruel, .. especially to children who still believe in Santa.

So starting from Abel, to Job, to Jesus, according to your above quotes from the Bible, they had it coming?

I’m simply saying what God says in his word that if your ways are pleasing to him that even your enemies will be at peace with you. Do you want to argue with God?

It is true even today, God will make sure that even your enemies live in peace with you if you are pleasing to Him. But if you have read closer you would have noticed that evil people have always prayed on the good. They are greedy, thieves, murderers, they rape and victimize the innocent simply because they are good, you must have skipped over those parts. That's why God sent the law to Moses, so those that are evil could be justly punished.

But after Jesus came (you know, the One you justify having been deserving all the punishment on Calvary) He said for us not to punish evil, instead;

Mathew 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Matthew 5:44
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

And here is why they treated Jesus the way they did:

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

But hey, if you can find verses where the Jews and then the Romans were justified in treating Jesus the way they did, please present it so we could debate it. That's why we're here on this Christian Forum. If you are with Satan and his followers and justify Jesus being so cruelly punished, let's hear your justifications. None of us here were there, so use whatever source you have (I guess now even the Satanic Bible can be used with equal authority with the Bible on Biblical matters) so present it and let's debate it? We should be able to discern whether Satan is right about Jesus deserving crucifixion, and to have a "Burning Man" party to commemorate it, or if the Bible is right in calling Jesus righteous?

No wonder there are so many ex-Christians who left the Religion, if this is what you've learned from them over the 30 years, .. good choice.

No I did not learn that as a Christian. Christians employ double standards. I no longer do that. I now look at the bible at face value.

Why is it that just because I see certain messages in the bible now as a non-believer that Christians like you want to act like it was the way I saw it when I was a Christian? When I was a Christian I saw Jesus as the son of God. What I see now is NOT what I believed as a Christian.

Go ahead, tell us how you see Jesus today, the one you once knew as the Son of God? Can we ask that you present information as to why you see Him differently, I mean where you now justify Him being tortured and slowly crucified to death? Or are you just going to make unwarranted blanket accusations about Him?

Surely you would understand that. I am no longer wearing the Christian rose-coloured glasses I once wore.

But sure, go ahead. Try to make out I had these views when I was a Christian and that’s the reason I no longer am one. You will be completely and utterly wrong. There are many legitimate reasons why I am not a Christian today.

I doubt that any rose colored or any other glasses would of make a difference (I will reframe from quoting scripture to that effect, unless you insist?), but either way I would love to hear all those 'legitimate reasons' that you are not a Christian anymore? You keep saying it, but you present no evidence.

A wise man exhibits self control:

James 1:26, "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight reign on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless."

I told you many times, "I am NOT religious", and I don't want to give the wrong impression.

Do you or have you conducted any of these religious rituals? If so then you are clearly religious:

1) Speaking in tongues.
2) Anointing with oil.
3) Casting out of Demons Raising hands to God. Baptism.
4) Communion.
5) Attending Church.
6) Singing together as a congregation.
7) Prayer.
8) Daily reading of the bible.

And if you take the bible seriously, then you would know true Christianity is definitely a religion. You would in fact be arguing with James:

James 1:26 & 27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Read it again,

No, I have read it already and it’s quite clear. How about you quit evading my questions. Have you or have you not conducted even one of those religious rituals in that list? If so then you have practised religion rituals. Do you tell me you never pray? That’s a RELIGIOUS ritual Arian! I wonder, do you close your eyes when you pray? Religion! Do you give thanks and blessings before meals? Religion!

No, read James 1:26 & 27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world again.

The first part is for those self righteous religious folk who profess to be Christ-like but their speech is of the devil. (Car salesman, prosperity preachers, etc.) This is religion, which God would tolerate, but just like the Pharisees it's worthless.

The second is NOT about worshiping God as if He was a creation of some religion, but our actions in doing good for each other that should be religious (love your neighbor as yourself), which includes looking after orphans and widows.
Going to church to worship the denominations gods, tithing for the gods (give god your money and he will bless you a hundred fold etc.) are religious acts serving each individuals religion and its gods. God don't need our money, or us going to church EVERY Sunday, or Saturday. There is a big difference in what religions require and need to survive, and what God requires. The same goes for doing these things either for our Religion, or in the Spirit, lead by the Spirit:

1) Speaking in tongues.
2) Anointing with oil.
3) Casting out of Demons Raising hands to God. Baptism.
4) Communion.
5) Attending Church.
6) Singing together as a congregation.
7) Prayer.
8) Daily reading of the bible.

I'm sure you've seen Kenneth Copland's message to the New Pope, he spoke in tongues, no interpretation except for some gibberish mixed in with hidden praise of Satan. (see videos of it on YouTube)

The posts you have made I have commented on where clearly in a mocking tone. Some of the statements you made were an attempt to ridicule and were just not taking the debates seriously. Unless you can show that you are graceful and that your words are seasoned with salt, why would anyone believe you were a spokesperson from God, or for that matter even a true Christian?

Matthew 7:6
“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

My responses are sometimes so other Christians could see the obviousness of our enemies and learn their tricks so they could respond to any situation, any tactics. The times are dangerous, Satan had 6,000 years to learn and perfect his tricks, so we have to be on guard at all times, ready for any attack from any position. A lot of Debaters here claim to be ex-Christian, so I make it my goal to answer your posts.

This is also why you feel that my answers are in a mocking tone, you feel the Word of God revealing your innermost intent. I'm sure Lady Gaga, or Richard Dawkins would find my tone mocking too, as have many Pastors of many denominations, and it had nothing to do with me not being polite, just that I had all the right answers, thank the Lord. Besides, what makes you so sure you know what a real Christian is? Not from what I have read from you so far!? I mean to justify Jesus being beaten and crucified to death because you feel He may have deserved it? That the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law may have been right about crucifying Him??

There are many Christians on this site who are quite capable of debating respectfully and without condescending and mocking tones. These Christians do not get warnings from moderators and do not get put on probation. They are at peace with their “enemy�. They are respected by their “enemy�. Some are even acknowledged as having wisdom.

Respected by their enemies? So is Billy Graham, Benny Hinn and his wife, Jesse Duplantis, Joel Osteen, TD Jake, and many, many more, all highly respected by both theists and atheists. The Lord reminded us about being 'loved by the world', remember?
I have no problems with the average folk, they all love me, theist and atheists. Its when we talk about God when people start showing hate, for many different reasons, but mainly because they hate listening to absolutes, especially for the possibility of having absolute 'truth', they hate that because it makes us realize just what sinners we are. I don't mind, cause I've been bought and set free. Now I's a good slave, and my Master loves me very much.

Matthew 10:34
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

So you’re claiming to be Jesus now?

Did I ever claim something like that? But I'm glad you remember who said that, Jesus, not Odon/arian, .. right?

Remember you said:

“Now I do admit my debates are not very graceful, but considering the times and how evil is being condoned and good is being literally banned from public, the Word of God has now become a sword. It may not look very graceful when it splits people open revealing the deepest secrets of their hearts that's true, but it isn't meant to look graceful either, right?�

And then followed up with this scripture:

“Matthew 10:34
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.�

Are you not using this scripture to justify ungracefulness? As if you had the same rights as Jesus?

I didn't claim to come to earth, it was Jesus the Son of God who did. I say what He teaches me to say, just as He said what His Father taught him to say. So if I'm at war with my enemies, I must be following in His footsteps, cause they hated Him too. He warned us of this, that if they hated Him, they shall also hate us, and accuse us of all kinds of evil. What right I have is what He gives me, and whatever He gives me I would never reject. I need it all, and I'll use it all.

Pro 16:7
When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

That is SO true, isn't it?

Funny that Jesus’s enemies did not live at peace with him, isn’t it? What does that tell you about Jesus ways?

.. that wicked people hate do-gooders? That's why they killed the Kennedy brothers and also Martin Luther King and millions of Disciples of Christ over the years isn't it?

Hold on, hold on that’s not what it’s saying. It does not say: “When a man’s ways are pleasing to the lord people will hate your because you’re good.� In fact it says completely the opposite. That they will be AT PEACE with you! The scripture quite clearly PROMISES this. Is that a lie? Perhaps it’s a lie?

If it’s a promise than that means neither Jesus, nor the Kennedy Brothers nor Martin Luther King were pleasing God. It’s the only rational and logical explanation one can make based on that bible promise.

It is exactly how I lived my life, and if you want me to show you, I could take you down some really bad parts of East Detroit where i went to school both grade school and high school, and later worked cutting plastic covers for furniture.
From the crazed drug lords, to anxious Mafia bosses who were very hard to please, I was loved. Not that they didn't try to kill me a few times, but somehow they changed their minds and I continued working for them.

I was an 18 year old white boy short, skinny in the worst parts of Detroit, and after a while I could get anything I ever wanted, just for the asking. Anything pertaining every day living, not a million dollars or something like that, but I could have done that too, for I had connections (even though I never thought about using them). So yes, my enemies did love me. Sometimes an entire houseful of Negros stopped in their track as I walked in their homes, not only that, I had a brand new car outside, in an area that they themselves told me they wouldn't leave parked out there. They would say: "White boy, .. ya gata be crazy! Where is your daddy? Now ah no you ain't come drivin' here bah you'self!" Once I started cutting and measuring they had all the neighbors in the house watching me: "Hot damn, this litle mo-fo white boy sure can move!"

Yes, they actually loved this particular white boy, yet I heard them say how they hated 'the Man' so I would of been definitely an enemy.
I would move their couch away from the wall to get around it to measure, and pick up their rifles, or hand guns and hand it back to them. They were embarrassed and intrigued that I wasn't afraid. I would tell them how I grew up having guns pointed in my face, which just tickled them to death. They would offer me, sometimes even insist I get a gun from them, cheap too, any caliber, any size clip (none of which I understood back then), you know for self defense. I told them I didn't even have a knife, or even a bat for protection, that I had my back covered and was not afraid. The older folks would say; "Sweet Jesus must be watching over this white boy, there aint no doubt about that. Amen and Halleluiah!" and they would have this same hearty laugh after saying that, which I just loved.

Actually, I trained some black guys for the company. One day we went to a really bad neighborhood, it was the East Side Projects (about 80% abandoned and boarded up), and the black guy said: "Aint no f'-in way I'm goin' in there! Boy, there ain't no way a white boy's gona come out a there alive." I went carrying my 50lb. plastic roll, my box of pins and my scissor, and he followed me in.
I tell you, ..untill we finished the job and got out of there, both of us were white, .. lol.

Aaahh, .. I could tell you all kinds of crazy stories, I used to laughingly tell it to my friends, because most of it was funny. Dangerous, but funny.

So don't tell me about enemies, people may presume me an enemy for a short while, but only those that hate God remain my enemies. And that's not my fault, it's not like I'll chose them over God or something.
(- the fonts just got bigger, nor my doing)

Or is it yet another bible contradiction? Another bible lie?

It's funny how some people see so much love and goodness in the world, see no evil, hear no evil until it comes to that contradicting Bible full of lies. And that Jesus in there, Oh now He was something, no wonder they tortured Him to death.

I know, .. if we could just get rid of all those evil discriminating Bibles, THEN there would be peace on earth and justice for all, .. right?

How is any of this relevant to what we are discussing?

Why are you even arguing with me? Take this argument up with your God not me. God’s word says that if your ways are pleasing to him you enemies will be at peace with you. Pretty simple promise on God’s part there. If your ways are not pleasing to God, then your enemies will be raging against you.

Really? See, that's why I go into all the detail, but you don't want to hear because people get one track minds when hating on God. They can only see what they are saying, and now you are on the enemies of Christians which as i shown you non-existent. The ONLY enemy of a Christian is Satan and his followers. The rest of the world loves us. But evil is powerful, and can rouse up people with lieas and Biblical distortions, they go murder and have their media which they control to blame "God told me to do it". It's the same-o over and over again. False accusations, lies, murder and then blame someone else, robbing and rape, .. until the poor people turn on each other where the wicked then points his finger and says: "There, .. see, I told you!"

My God, my God, how long will you allow evil to run amuck? How long will you put up with all this slander, with all this hate and obvious deception? The same-o "Did God really tell you (this and that) ahaaa, .. yes He did! Did too, look it says right here!"
Look, I'm not Eve, and as long as God keeps me on this forum I will never let you or any of your buddies deceive anyone seeking the Lord. So just give up and repent, didn't you have enough yet? 6,000 years and still using the same lines. But why not, it still reels them in don't it? As long as the promise 'looks good to the eyes" its still a good bait.

Tell me, why is it that an uneducated dumb idiot like me can see this, yet those with higher degrees and with education can't? Want the answer?
The dumb unschooled idiot can see, because his eyes have been opened by the Holy Spirit, while the schooled, smart, intelligent with all kinds of degrees lack the Holy spirit so they walk around in darkness lead by none other than the wicked one, Lucifer.

Err no, the Christian sees something a certain way because he has his rose-colored glasses on when he reads the bible. Not because of any holy spirit. The holy spirit can’t be shown to be anything more than a fantasy.

How many 'fantasies' are you debating right now besides Christianity?
God doesn't exist, Jesus never existed but is just a fisherman's fairytale, the Bible is a bronze-aged fairytale full of fairytales, and here you are all out to debunk this 'fairytale'. Man, do you even see how ridiculous this sounds?

Now imagine if someone went to every kindergarten to 3rd graders and got into heated debates on their fairytales? Sure they would make some children cry, but how would the faculty, the parents see that person as?

"Look honey, this guy goes around debating children's fairytales telling them they are fairytales, and that he know there is no real proof for any of those fairytale stories in there because they are only fairytales!" Do you see the irony in debating something you are absolutely sure is a fairytale, .. for years on end?

Want to try me and see if I have Gods Holy Spirit or not? Don't pick easy targets like religions who receive their information through divining lying spirits, try me and see if my non-religious interpretation is weak or not?

Why would I believe you have a super power called the holy spirit in you? How exactly can I test that this super power actually IS in you? From what I can see based on the bible teaching the holy spirit is NOT in you.

The bible teaches about the fruits of the holy spirit, by which we can tell who the true Christians are and which ones really do have the holy spirit. I do not see any of those fruits in you.

And I thank the Lord for that.
Now think why I said that?

hint: what did you think you were for the past 30 years?
No, you still don't see it?
Here, hint #2. If you thought of me, or defined me as a Christian, I would be in big trouble according to the Bible.
Hint #3. If you talked evil about God the way you do now, and loved me for what I say in defense of Christianity, I would be in big trouble according to the Bible.

Well something must have kept you going for 30 years, if not the threat of hell, what was it? Wait, was it the 'slicing of the neck ear to ear' hand signal? Is that it? Why would you leave when so far I can't see any reason for you to have left?

Ok now you’re starting to mock again. I kept going for 30 years because I loved the lord, I completely believed in him and his teachings. I believed that I was serving him and that he was blessing me. I believed he was doing things in my life. I believed I had things he wanted me to do.

I would offer you my story via PM which you could read about my walk as a Christian and how I came to disbelief, but I get the feeling you would just start mocking it.

Now that really would be Un-Christian of me. This is open debate, not on the personal level. PM means personal. E-mail is personal and it stays that way until both you and I decide to make it public. I am not evil my friend.

You still hold on to the same Biblical interpretations you learned from them,

What? No of course I don’t keep hold of the same biblical interpretations I did as a Christian. No way at all! Some of how I see the bible is the same but not all of it. Many of my views have changed since losing my faith and becoming an ex-Christian. I'm quite capable of coming to my own conclusions about the bible now, I don't need any Christians to tell me what it says.

Please forgive me for saying this, but after even 5 to 10 years leaving the Christian Religion (whatever denomination) I could pick up indoctrination. I still struggle with it, mostly because a lot of their teaching is the same as what I understand, so it's easy to say something religious doctrinal, and I have to be careful of that. For instance:
Worshipping Jesus as God, like when I bow down in His name, I pray to God. If he was here, I would fall down in worship of Him because He is the TRUE representation of God. Just as Moses fell on his face in the presence of the Fiery Angel as if it was God, and for that time, God was in that Angel.

But Religion actually made a god out of Jesus, as an equal to Spirit God. Huge difference, and Jesus made that perfectly clear.

Can we, or are we to bow down to Jesus if we were to see Him?

Most definitely.

Why?

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Reconciled in Christ

Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

If a worldly king deserves a bow, the Son of God deserves that I lick the dirt of the bottom of His feet. God created all things through Him and for Him, yet look what He did for a filthy undeserving dog like me. It is Gods wish to have us bow to Him, because He earned it, and because He would never take that personally because His ever wish is to give Glory to His Father.

He could gave grabbed at being God both in Heaven and especially here on earth, (like Lucifer wanted) but rather He humbled Himself to the cross. He's no spoiled child that's for sure, always looking out for our own good.

so what could you have possibly gained from leaving? New and better friends, .. what?

There was nothing to gain, only loss. Or so it seemed at the time. I was heartbroken when I lost my faith. I fought against it with all my might. I didn't chose to lose my faith. I didn't choose become an ex-Christian. It was a heart wrenching realization I came to that I no longer believed. For many years I cried out to God and prayed desperately that he would help me believe again. All I got was silence. One day I realised that I was never going to hear from him because he just didn't exist. It was never something I wanted. There was never any attraction to atheism. None whatsoever. I never wanted to be an ex-Christian.

You made that huge step, not many can escape the clutches of Religion, so why stop now?
Do you think Muslims hear God even after giving their lives on a suicide mission?
Have you ever asked yourself why?
Stones are dead, idols are dead, stories of triune gods are man made and you won't find that in the Bible, so why continue to fool ourselves, right?

I agree 1,000%, if God exists and wants us to be able to find Him (He does insist for us to look for Him, it shows zeal, and just how much zeal we are willing to offer) He should make a way for us to find Him.

I have shown you that without a shadow of a doubt I have found Him, and You are a part of God. Your mind is OF God, it is both infinite and eternal, just as God is.

Don't let the devil use those science fiction fairytales rob you of who you are my friend, that would NOT be wise. I mean could you honestly accept being created in the image of an ape? Especially when we have all the evidence in from scientific discovery!?
Why attack God, the holy Spirit of God (which may never be forgiven) and His beloved Son with such cruelty? Please stop my friend, it's not worth it, none of that science fiction bull is worth it. And no, no one is wiser by mumbling those sci-fi gibberish Big-bang supporting words, I can debate every one of them back to the gibberish they came from, and I practically didn't have any schooling. It's all made up, just as rhetoric was invented so lawyers could have a job. All them big words even the Judge couldn't understand half the time, so they could make money on us poor suckers, but the main reason was to hide the laws from plain sight.

Same with the BB-Evolution stories.

I mean come on. As a Christian I believed God had the whole world in his hands, that he had great plans for me and that one day I'd be with him in Heaven, living in paradise for all eternity. Why would I ever want to give up that? Why? That's just nuts!

He still has the whole world, the whole universe, the whole whatever else He had his Son create in His hands. More like in His mind. Our existence is the laws He made us by, the law defines every atom and whatever makes up that atom, and Gods Word is Law! It doesn't change unless He, or whomever He gives authority to change it, which we call miracles.

Now come on people, obviously I am the least of you here, have you ever heard anyone speak like me about thing even the greatest minds of history couldn't even come close to understand?
I challenge anyone to debate me on the existence of 'nothing'. I can prove it. Great minds, educated minds can't even comprehend it, yet I can prove it exists, and why it exists. Now buddy that ain't me, but Gods holy Spirit in me.

I know what you mean, that God should reveal Himself, .. but you don't know the rest of the story. There is a reason for all this, and once you enter your mind, or allow your mind to enter into eternity, look around in eternity, you would understand why God has to choose carefully who goes there. The consequences are no longer for a time, even if a crook escapes without getting caught, he will eventually die, right? But imagine having an eternal body and be allowed to roam free in eternal Heaven? Where there is infinity at their disposal?

This is why God had the other Angels capture Lucifer and his angels, it was a war in Heaven. I mean can you imagine looking for those who escaped or ran when they seen they were loosing? This is far more complicated and serious then anyone has ever imagined, far as I know anyways.

The best part is, I have the Bible to back me up, thank God for that.

Oh, and i know how 'un-formal-Christian I sound like, and I do that on purpose so not to sound religious. "Oh my, did your hear him say sht? oh no way can he be lead by the Holy Spirit!" Hmm, how soon they forget where or what Gehenna was?

Yeah, but how's it that He can define Holy Spirit other then some demigod who cheated on father-god when he came upon Mary and fathered Jesus the sun-god, ey?

God bless you all.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 252 by OnceConvinced]

Perhaps Jesus wasn’t as wise as he claimed to be?

Pro 18:6
A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating.

Pro 16:7
When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

Pro 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall

Logically ... of course ... if p then q <> if q then p.

So if a fool then strife does not mean if strife then a fool.

Prov 16:7 is pretty damning though. Is it considered evil to even consider that maybe Jesus's ways weren't pleasing to God?

[Replying to post 261 by OnceConvinced]

I do think some of your theology is/was off if you were taught God has great plans for you. I guess it depends on what 'great plans' means to you.

Of course you can claim my theology was way off, but that would be your opinion only and would be disagreeing with thousands of other genuine Christians who believe that God has a plan for them.

But that is only one small piece of theology amongst a huge volume of theology. Don't try to blow it out of proportion now. Does one false little piece of theology make you a false Christian?

[OnceConvinced]

Let's ask 2 billion Christians, Scholars who actually read the NT Bible about Jesus Christ and see if those scriptures you quoted apply?

You mean people who are biased in favour of Jesus being the son of God and being sinless etc etc? Sure let's talk to people who refuse to look at any other possibilities...NOT

You want to actually debate what I said instead of throwing insults at my Lord who is described very clearly in the Bible as "keeper of the whole law"? You can start by quoting Jesus actions that those verses you quoted would fit Him, so let's debate it and stop being so insulting?

I have never thrown any insults at Jesus. All I have done is pointed out that Proverbs 16:7 illustrates that Jesus ways perhaps weren’t actually pleasing to God otherwise his enemies would have been at peace with him. Why are you attacking me? Do you just want to avoid Proverbs 16:7? Is it a lie? Why does it not apply to Jesus? Why such double standards?

Do you always get this defensive when scripture is quoted to you?

If that scripture is true and if Jesus ways were pleasing to God, then he wouldn’t have had his enemies baying for his blood. Perhaps the Jews are right and Jesus was not the messiah? Is that really such an evil thing to suggest?

This response is for those who may have never read the Bible, or who just browsed through it briefly and claim they are now Christians or ex-Christians because of it; In the Bible it explains everything that Jesus did, and that His Father God, .. Bible God, (not to be confused with Lucifer god) said including: "This is my beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased, .. Hear Him!" You the readers can see if my fellow debater friend here is justified in such ugly and horrendous accusations? If you can find some things that Jesus did to justify such cruel punishment, by all means present it and we can debate it.

We only get a small portion of the life of Jesus in these tales. Tales, which by the way are not eyewitness accounts, but hearsay.

I have to wonder just how much of these stories is true. One moment God is saying that if you ways are pleasing to him, even your enemies will be at peace with you. Next thing we have Jesus’s enemies baying for his blood and demanding his death. Then we have God SUPPOSEDLY saying this is my beloved son of whom I’m well pleased. Then next we have “My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?�

Contrary stuff, Arian.

As a matter of fact I CAN see things that Jesus did in those tales that might have caused God to be displeased with him. But that is a debate for another thread.

To me I don’t see it as remotely evil. It’s no more evil than suggesting that maybe Luke Skywalker was really working for the dark side or that Santa Claus was a closet paedophile.

Sure, if you can show me clips where it would seem like Luke Skywalker worked for the dark side, we could analyze it and debate it, otherwise you are just trying to piss all the Star Wars fans off, millions of them, .. or simply being belligerent!?

That’s because there is nothing to suggest Luke was working for the dark side (although with the new movies we might find out otherwise). HOWEVER in the bible , Proverbs 16:7 quite clearly implies very strongly that Jesus ways weren’t pleasing to God. Perhaps there are parts of his story that has been conveniently omitted from the gospels? Stuff that his followers did not want us to read?

As for Santa Claus, I never read any Santa book where Santa brings toys for the good children, and comes down the chimney and takes and molests those in the closet who were bad!? But again, if you could point out any Santa Book where you read to suggest that, please present it so we can debate it? Otherwise your remarks are unwarranted and very cruel, .. especially to children who still believe in Santa.

Perhaps those stories are conveniently left out by Santa Claus lovers who do not want his dirty secrets to be revealed?

My point is that it’s not evil to suggest such things. How can it ever be evil? Evil would imply that I have some dark and malevolent reasons for making such claims. I don’t. I am simply pointing out what scripture says and making a suggestion that maybe Jesus wasn’t all he was cracked up to be. Proverbs 16:7 quite clearly indicates this possibility. You need to go to God and get him to edit Proverbs 16:7 if you don’t like it.

If what Proverbs is saying is not true, then we have a contradiction in scripture. Instead of making personal attacks against me, why don’t you explain to me why Proverbs 16:7 does not apply to Jesus. Just because there is a dubious claim that God said “He is my son with who I’m well pleased� does not negate Provers 16:7 does it? And it doesn’t take away the fact that Jesus’s enemies were not a peace with him. Based on this scripture how can Jesus ways be pleasing to God if his enemies are not a peace with him? How do we resolve this obvious contradiction? Ignore Proverbs 16:7?

So starting from Abel, to Job, to Jesus, according to your above quotes from the Bible, they had it coming?

I’m simply saying what God says in his word that if your ways are pleasing to him that even your enemies will be at peace with you. Do you want to argue with God?

It is true even today, God will make sure that even your enemies live in peace with you if you are pleasing to Him. But if you have read closer you would have noticed that evil people have always prayed on the good. They are greedy, thieves, murderers, they rape and victimize the innocent simply because they are good, you must have skipped over those parts. That's why God sent the law to Moses, so those that are evil could be justly punished.

Perhaps these evil people only prey on those whose ways are not pleasing to God? Perhaps those whose ways ARE pleasing to God have no problems with thieves, murderers, rapists etc? Or perhaps Proverbs 16:7 is just a straight out lie? In other words the bible contains a blatant lie?

I could agree that the bible contains blatant lies and would even suggest that Proverbs 16:7 is a lie. Would you agree with me it is a lie?

But after Jesus came (you know, the One you justify having been deserving all the punishment on Calvary) He said for us not to punish evil, instead;

What? No I would never justify Jesus deserving of any punishment. Except perhaps charges of vandalism when it came to his wrathful rampage in the temple. But I would never demand his death. I’m not that malevolent.

It’s funny it seems to be Christians giving glory to God for the bloody death of Jesus. They seem to think it’s wonderful that an innocent man suffered for their sins. I would never see anything to rejoice about that.

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

But hey, if you can find verses where the Jews and then the Romans were justified in treating Jesus the way they did, please present it so we could debate it.

We could search through the gospels and we could debate about this, but it still doesn’t doe away with the promise made in Proverbs 16:7. Perhaps we can just agree that Proverbs 16:7 is a lie?

That's why we're here on this Christian Forum. If you are with Satan and his followers and justify Jesus being so cruelly punished, let's hear your justifications.

I do not believe in Satan anymore. To me he is no more real that Freddie Kruger. So I have no interest in taking sides with something imaginary.

Go ahead, tell us how you see Jesus today, the one you once knew as the Son of God? Can we ask that you present information as to why you see Him differently, I mean where you now justify Him being tortured and slowly crucified to death? Or are you just going to make unwarranted blanket accusations about Him?

I have close to a hundred reasons why I seem him differently today. I think I may have already presented them on this thread or another. To me now Jesus is simply a man who may or may not have existed. He was not the son of God and did not do miracles. It may even be that he was a con-artist, but I cannot know for sure.

No, I have read it already and it’s quite clear. How about you quit evading my questions. Have you or have you not conducted even one of those religious rituals in that list? If so then you have practised religion rituals. Do you tell me you never pray? That’s a RELIGIOUS ritual Arian! I wonder, do you close your eyes when you pray? Religion! Do you give thanks and blessings before meals? Religion!

No, read James 1:26 & 27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world again.

The first part is for those self righteous religious folk who profess to be Christ-like but their speech is of the devil. (Car salesman, prosperity preachers, etc.)

Agreed. Funny how many Chriistians who come to this forum are exactly like that and cannot control their tongues and end up getting warnings from moderators, put on probation and sometimes even banned.

The second is NOT about worshiping God as if He was a creation of some religion, but our actions in doing good for each other that should be religious (love your neighbor as yourself), which includes looking after orphans and widows.

Agreed. But it’s religion isn’t it? Do you do good to others? Do you do charitable acts? In which case you are practising religion just as James says.

Going to church to worship the denominations gods, tithing for the gods (give god your money and he will bless you a hundred fold etc.) are religious acts serving each individuals religion and its gods. God don't need our money, or us going to church EVERY Sunday, or Saturday. There is a big difference in what religions require and need to survive, and what God requires. The same goes for doing these things either for our Religion, or in the Spirit, lead by the Spirit:

What about religious rituals such as prayer and regular bible reading? Do you do those? That’s religion too!

The posts you have made I have commented on where clearly in a mocking tone. Some of the statements you made were an attempt to ridicule and were just not taking the debates seriously. Unless you can show that you are graceful and that your words are seasoned with salt, why would anyone believe you were a spokesperson from God, or for that matter even a true Christian?

Matthew 7:6
“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Oh using bible insults to insult me? Who are you to judge whether I am a swine or a dog? What about all those people who read these threads? Are they swine and dogs too? Who are you to make such a call?

This is also why you feel that my answers are in a mocking tone,

I am talking mainly about your mocking tones about evolution. They were clearly trying to make a mockery of the subject.

you feel the Word of God revealing your innermost intent.

Definitely not.

I'm sure Lady Gaga, or Richard Dawkins would find my tone mocking too, as have many Pastors of many denominations, and it had nothing to do with me not being polite, just that I had all the right answers, thank the Lord. Besides, what makes you so sure you know what a real Christian is?

What makes YOU so sure?

All I can say is if I was never a true Christian then there is no such thing. It’s clearly just a fantasy.

Not from what I have read from you so far!?

You might think differently if this was ten years ago and I was still a Christian. I never had anyone accuse me of being a false Christian. Not once.

I mean to justify Jesus being beaten and crucified to death because you feel He may have deserved it? That the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law may have been right about crucifying Him??

Well you would justify him being beaten and crucified to death for your own abominations.

Respected by their enemies? So is Billy Graham, Benny Hinn and his wife, Jesse Duplantis, Joel Osteen, TD Jake, and many, many more, all highly respected by both theists and atheists. The Lord reminded us about being 'loved by the world', remember?

I will agree Billy Graham is generally respected by non-believers. Perhaps his ways ARE pleasing to God?

As for Benny Hinn, he is only respected amongst Christians it seems. As far as I can see he’s been branded a charlatan and a man who has make millions of dollars off his followers.

I have no problems with the average folk, they all love me, theist and atheists.

Same here. I have no enemies in my every day life. It seems the only people who take exception to me are strangers on the Internet because they don’t like some of the things I say.

Its when we talk about God when people start showing hate, for many different reasons,

I very rarely talk about God with people. When I do it’s usually with my girlfriend who sees things much the way I do.

but mainly because they hate listening to absolutes, especially for the possibility of having absolute 'truth', they hate that because it makes us realize just what sinners we are. I don't mind, cause I've been bought and set free. Now I's a good slave, and my Master loves me very much.

Or perhaps they just get tired of religious fantasy and people lying to them? Perhaps they are quite capable of seeing that it’s not truth that you preach?

I didn't claim to come to earth, it was Jesus the Son of God who did. I say what He teaches me to say, just as He said what His Father taught him to say. So if I'm at war with my enemies, I must be following in His footsteps, cause they hated Him too.

Then you believe Proverbs 16:7 to be a lie then?

Really? See, that's why I go into all the detail, but you don't want to hear because people get one track minds when hating on God.

I don’t hate any gods. Do you hate all those other thousands of Gods you don’t believe in?

They can only see what they are saying

And likewise those with Christian goggles on can only see inside their little Christian world, which is why they could never entertain the notion that maybe Jesus wasn’t all he was cracked up to be.

Look, I'm not Eve, and as long as God keeps me on this forum I will never let you or any of your buddies deceive anyone seeking the Lord.

And I won’t stand by and allow Christians to promote their fantasies as if they were real.

Really, as long as you follow the rules there is no reason why you would not continue to remain on here. If you get yourself banned that’s your own fault.

So just give up and repent, didn't you have enough yet?

Why would I repent to a god I don’t believe in? I already did that when I did believe in that god.

6,000 years and still using the same lines.

6000 years and Christians are still preaching the same message, making the same threats, behaving the same way… and yet STILL Jesus has not returned.

How many 'fantasies' are you debating right now besides Christianity?
God doesn't exist, Jesus never existed but is just a fisherman's fairytale, the Bible is a bronze-aged fairytale full of fairytales, and here you are all out to debunk this 'fairytale'. Man, do you even see how ridiculous this sounds?

It is when you twist it that way. But that’s not the way it is.

Now imagine if someone went to every kindergarten to 3rd graders and got into heated debates on their fairytales? Sure they would make some children cry, but how would the faculty, the parents see that person as?

Even kindergarten kids know their stories aren’t real. Religious folk though treat their fairytales as though they ARE real. And THERE is the problem. When fairytales are preached as if they are real and not just fairy tales, when people live their lives based on fairytales and insist others do too. When people make threats based on fairy tales. When people try to make rules based on fairy tales. THAT’S when people like us need to come along and say something. THAT is why we are here and why we debate.

"Look honey, this guy goes around debating children's fairytales telling them they are fairytales, and that he know there is no real proof for any of those fairytale stories in there because they are only fairytales!" Do you see the irony in debating something you are absolutely sure is a fairytale, .. for years on end?

Can you really not see here why you might be considered making a mockery?

You made that huge step, not many can escape the clutches of Religion, so why stop now?
Do you think Muslims hear God even after giving their lives on a suicide mission?
Have you ever asked yourself why?

Because religious delusion is a powerful thing. Every religious person believes that their God is real and that they're hearing from him. Christians are no different to Muslims really. They just don't strap explosives to themselves and try to blow people up.

I have shown you that without a shadow of a doubt I have found Him,

No, all you’ve done is make claims and told stories which may or may not be true. You have offered no proof that you have any God in your life. I too once used to have a testimony about how I had found God.

Why attack God?,

I don’t attack God. I point out flaws in religious thinking. I attack certain deluded points of views. I point out things that don’t make sense and which don’t line up with reality.

the holy Spirit of God (which may never be forgiven) and His beloved Son with such cruelty? Please stop my friend,

If you knew my heart you would know there is no evil or cruelty behind anything I have said here. I just want people to wake up and get out of their religious fantasy worlds. It's because I care and I don't want to see people waste their lives on religious nonsense like I did.

it's not worth it, none of that science fiction bull is worth it.

Exactly what science fiction bull are you talking about? Like evil beings from outer space, bent on destroying all of humanity? Super powered beings from Heaven looking to save mankind? Superpowers that normal humans can have if they just conduct religious rituals like the sinners prayer and repentance?

And no, no one is wiser by mumbling those sci-fi gibberish Big-bang supporting words,

Are you still going on about the big bang? I have no strong opinions about the big bang. I cannot say whether it’s how this universe came into existence or not.

I mean come on. As a Christian I believed God had the whole world in his hands, that he had great plans for me and that one day I'd be with him in Heaven, living in paradise for all eternity. Why would I ever want to give up that? Why? That's just nuts!

He still has the whole world, the whole universe, the whole whatever else He had his Son create in His hands. More like in His mind. Our existence is the laws He made us by, the law defines every atom and whatever makes up that atom, and Gods Word is Law! It doesn't change unless He, or whomever He gives authority to change it, which we call miracles.

And it’s this sort of thinking that we non-beleivers find very scary and one of the reasons why we debate. People who believe that God is going to come and rescue us from ourselves. So who cares about global warming? Who cares about nuclear war? Who cares if this planet only lasts a few hundred years more. Jesus is coming back before then! He will save us?

What if he doesn’t? Then we’re in big trouble.

I know what you mean, that God should reveal Himself, .. but you don't know the rest of the story. There is a reason for all this, and once you enter your mind, or allow your mind to enter into eternity, look around in eternity, you would understand why God has to choose carefully who goes there. The consequences are no longer for a time, even if a crook escapes without getting caught, he will eventually die, right? But imagine having an eternal body and be allowed to roam free in eternal Heaven? Where there is infinity at their disposal?

This is why God had the other Angels capture Lucifer and his angels, it was a war in Heaven. I mean can you imagine looking for those who escaped or ran when they seen they were loosing? This is far more complicated and serious then anyone has ever imagined, far as I know anyways.

The best part is, I have the Bible to back me up, thank God for that.

You were just complaining earlier about science fiction. And then you come up with this heap of science fiction? Talk about irony! ROFL

Oh, and i know how 'un-formal-Christian I sound like,

You sound like many other Christians we’ve had coming through this site. You’re not actually anything special.

[arian]

Let's ask 2 billion Christians, Scholars who actually read the NT Bible about Jesus Christ and see if those scriptures you quoted apply?

You mean people who are biased in favour of Jesus being the son of God and being sinless etc etc? Sure let's talk to people who refuse to look at any other possibilities...NOT

Prove that all these people haven't' considered other possibilities, or please retract your claim?

You want to actually debate what I said instead of throwing insults at my Lord who is described very clearly in the Bible as "keeper of the whole law"? You can start by quoting Jesus actions that those verses you quoted would fit Him, so let's debate it and stop being so insulting?

I have never thrown any insults at Jesus. All I have done is pointed out that Proverbs 16:7 illustrates that Jesus ways perhaps weren’t actually pleasing to God otherwise his enemies would have been at peace with him. Why are you attacking me? Do you just want to avoid Proverbs 16:7? Is it a lie? Why does it not apply to Jesus? Why such double standards?

Do you always get this defensive when scripture is quoted to you?

Only when scripture is quoted out of context in an obvious effort to pervert it's true teachings.

For the third time, show me scripture where your cruel claims against Jesus Christ is justified? Simply stating; "Jesus ways perhaps weren’t actually pleasing to God" is not enough to beat, torture, spit upon and then crucify a man is it?

Pilot the judge: "I find no fault in this man!"

The crowd: "But perhaps He is not as perfect as He is? Maybe we just didn't catch Him sinning, .. don't prove nothing, so KILL HIM! Crucify Him!"

But that didn't matter to them then, and it looks like it wouldn't matter now, and guess who would be in the crowd yelling: "Kill Him, .. crucify Him!" ? Their debates are very telling, not hard to find who they are, right?

We only get a small portion of the life of Jesus in these tales. Tales, which by the way are not eyewitness accounts, but hearsay.

Tell me, how much of the news throughout history, or now like CNN, CBS NBC are from 'eye witness accounts'?

Start with the War on Iraq, who seen Saddam Hussein's Weapons of mass destruction that our Children went in there to destroy?

99% of the wars start by hearsay.

People asking soldiers who just got home from service: "So, did you guys kill the bad guys with their weapons of mass destruction?"

Soldiers: "Huh, .. what? Weapons of mass destruction? Bad guys? er, .. we did kill a lot of people! Oh you should of seen it, it was awesome! Especially 'Operation Awesome', .. it was awesome!"

I have to wonder just how much of these stories is true. One moment God is saying that if you ways are pleasing to him, even your enemies will be at peace with you.

Generally you know it's true. I'm sure you yourself try to be nice to your neighbor, lend him tools and so forth even if you hate him for many other reasons. It's to be at peace with him, right?

Next thing we have Jesus’s enemies baying for his blood and demanding his death. Then we have God SUPPOSEDLY saying this is my beloved son of whom I’m well pleased. Then next we have “My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?�

Contrary stuff, Arian.

Yes, Jesus enemies, .. claiming He may never even existed, yet posting hateful, and false claims against Him years on end!? How's that possible for a human being to claim he/she doesn't believe in the Bible or the characters in the Bible, yet can debate endlessly, thousands of posts against those very characters and what they said that he/she/it doesn't believe in?

Here is a creature I just made up: "Flagmack", don't ask me who, what, why it is because i don't believe he/it exists.

Now imagine me create a forum and bash "Flagmack" what I don't even believe exists, .. for years, posting thousands of posts against it/him/her!?

As a matter of fact I CAN see things that Jesus did in those tales that might have caused God to be displeased with him.

But that is a debate for another thread.

I would say, .. more like a debate with a professional, in an office laying on a couch. That's where anyone that want's to debate what he/she/it (not to offend any gender or genderless human, animal or otherwise) claims to be imaginary, and repeatedly say he/she/it doesn't believe even exist aught to debate at. I'm sure that you as a rational person would agree, no?

We have gone off topic long enough. I no longer wish to debate with someone who wants to argue about things he/she/it (general) doesn't believe even exists.

I mean what value is in debating with someone who claims he was once convinced of fairytales, but now he don't even believe the book the fairytale came out of is even real?