Is the vicarious redemption of jesus MORAL?

[Dr.Physics]

(lets assume the the crucifixion happened as the christians say it does for this thread)

the crucifixion of jesus christ was brutal and bloody. if i were present i would feel the need to STOP the bloody human sacrifice. this act of vicarious redemption is equivalent to scapegoating. is this not immoral and barbaric?

"you can serve my sentence in jail, but you cant take away my responsibility... after looking at the offer (of jesus' sacrifice) and considering it, i would rather decline the offer of this lamb's blood, but thanks anyways...... - whats that? if i dont accept this offer you will KILL ME?! and send me to hell for eternity? is that a THREAT?" (Christopher Hitchens)

This Christian god IF he exists does NOT give me or you a choice, but rather is blackmailing us into following him. The christian idea of god is a "supernatural dictatorship in whose court you have no repeal, with a leader you can not overthrow, and whose supervision you could never escape." (hitch)

i either must worship this being which i think is IMMORAL for performing and/or participating in human sacrifices (among other atrocities) OR burn in hell for eternity.. this is not an offer of a moral creator.[/b]

[flitzerbiest]

He would have been justified in executing [Adam and Eve] on the spot and ending the universe then and there.

For a victimless act of intellectual curiosity? Please.

How does "free will" explain the collective punishment of all subsequently born humans? Who but an infinitely callous and cruel being would just desert his ENTIRE own creation because some of them committed a crime without knowing even what a crime is?

Once again punishment only happens when one rejects forgiveness and redemption.

The fact that you didn't answer the question has not escaped notice.

If mankind never had the option to rebel then mankind would just be slaves.

Since the option to "rebel" will be removed in heaven, wouldn't that be your eternal destiny?

[TheParticlePerson]

I'm pretty sure you can rebel in heaven. That's what Satan did, right?

[wonderer]

I'm pretty sure you can rebel in heaven. That's what Satan did, right?

Exactly. I raised that in another thread 'Could sin exist in heaven?' So the whole cycle could start all over again. If God wanted to create something he should have made it that noone could rebel. That way there wouldn't 'need' to be eternal punishment, or a sacrifice of Jesus, or any suffering or evil at all. If God couldn't do it this way, he was immoral to create at all. He should have remained alone. I don't approve of God's morality.

[Woland]

Hello EduChris,

While you're explaining the (or rather, your) Christian worldview, I'd really appreciate an answer to at least a couple of my questions. I am truly curious about the "we" you refer to in your posts affirming that "we" somehow "chose" to experience suffering and sin.

We were created good, we were created with free will,

Who could the "we" even possibly refer to in that example? Our ape ancestors? Or is it that a precise point in evolution "humans" were granted a soul and continued to exhibit the behaviors of their social primate ancestors (jealousy, violence, friendship, etc.), thereby "choosing to sin"?

What happened to people after they died before the sacrifice of Jesus? What really changed there?

[Adstar]

He would have been justified in executing [Adam and Eve] on the spot and ending the universe then and there.

For a victimless act of intellectual curiosity? Please.

No. God told them not to take the knowledge of Good and Evil. They made their decision to go against their Creators will and suffered the consequences. They had not been created to be able to handle the knowledge of Good and Evil and this is clear as the state of humanity today and down through history shows. There are many millions of victims of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Mankind would never have know violence if they never knew good and evil.

How does "free will" explain the collective punishment of all subsequently born humans? Who but an infinitely callous and cruel being would just desert his ENTIRE own creation because some of them committed a crime without knowing even what a crime is?

Once again punishment only happens when one rejects forgiveness and redemption.

The fact that you didn't answer the question has not escaped notice.

I did indeed answer the question. The fact that others are not Satisfied by the answer makes no difference. Of course Free will was never the cause of the collective punishment. But the use of that free will to rebel against the good directive of God was the case of the collective suffering that has happened down through the ages. I answered that Punishment only comes when one rejects the forgiveness and redemption. That answer is saying that the what has happened over the ages is Not punishment but the outcome of mankind obtaining the knowledge of Good and Evil whilst being in a state of creation unable to handle it. So what has been happening to us down through the ages is Not "collective punishment" but "collective suffering"

If mankind never had the option to rebel then mankind would just be slaves.

Since the option to "rebel" will be removed in heaven, wouldn't that be your eternal destiny?

I will be changed into a state of being where i will know that the wisdom of God is perfect (i have faith that His wisdom is perfect now) I will follow God because i know He is correct and justly the one and true God. So i will be a willing servant of God. The only One who can be God. satans desire to be God was doomed from the very start and Adam and Eves desire to be Gods is what lead them and us to suffering.

Only God can be God He is the Only one who can do the Job.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

I'm pretty sure you can rebel in heaven. That's what Satan did, right?

Yes satan did.

But Humans who are granted eternity With God will be transformed into a state of being far superior to Angels. We shall Judge Angels.

1 Corinthians 6
3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[TheParticlePerson]

I'm pretty sure you can rebel in heaven. That's what Satan did, right?

Yes satan did.

But Humans who are granted eternity With God will be transformed into a state of being far superior to Angels. We shall Judge Angels.

1 Corinthians 6
3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Why would we be superior to angels (who have presumably been there for quite some time) upon our arrival in heaven? How, and for what purpose, would we judge them?

[EduChris]

...On the one hand, goodness is not an arbitrary exertion of will. Something is not simply good because God says it is so. It is good because it conforms to the nature of God...Good is not independent of God, just of God's will...

Is this solution available to other theisms such as Islam? How can we conceptualize the distinction between God's nature and God's will? Are there trinitarian implications here? Is there something specifically incarnational that might help us understand this distinction between God's nature and God's will?

..."good" is linked with "being." God is perfectly good because God perfectly exists. Evil is non-being or non-existence...

Good point. And to me, this is why it makes no sense to speak of an "evil God," for such would be a contradiction in terms.

[EduChris]

...you're explaining the (or rather, your) Christian worldview...

If a Christian on this forum recites from the catechism, he is accused of blindly following dogma. And if a seminary educated Christian gives his own interpretations, he is accused of being a maverick. I wonder if there is anything a Christian can do on this forum that would exempt him or her from this "damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma?

...Who could the "we" even possibly refer to in that example? Our ape ancestors? Or is it that a precise point in evolution "humans" were granted a soul and continued to exhibit the behaviors of their social primate ancestors (jealousy, violence, friendship, etc.), thereby "choosing to sin"?...

The "we" refers collectively to the human race, comprised as it is of individuals who quite evidently exercise their free will for purposes contrary to other-regarding, other-respecting, other-serving love.

...What happened to people after they died before the sacrifice of Jesus? What really changed there?

The incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus provides the justification for God to act as our judge with complete authenticity and integrity, in solidarity with us rather than as an indifferent spectator to the human condition. According to Christian tradition, we will all face the day of judgement together (regardless of when we have died) and we will all be judged by the resurrected Jesus.

[Adstar]

I'm pretty sure you can rebel in heaven. That's what Satan did, right?

Yes satan did.

But Humans who are granted eternity With God will be transformed into a state of being far superior to Angels. We shall Judge Angels.

1 Corinthians 6
3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Why would we be superior to angels (who have presumably been there for quite some time) upon our arrival in heaven? How, and for what purpose, would we judge them?

I do not know why God has decided to raise Human beings who have accepted the Redeemer Jesus to a state higher than Angels. I might speculate that it is a kind of compensation for a life time of suffering in this faulty existence, but again i do not know.

Scriptures state that not just satan but One third of all the angels are allied to him in rebellion against God. Maybe we will be judging them? I do not know how and for what purpose we shall judge Angels. But being in the position of Judge makes one higher then the judged.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days