Why live?

[alive]

Why would god have us do this stupid step? Why even be born? Just wake up in heaven.. We make no sense. A true god that most are wanting that created everything in the universe would not need living specks of like on a grain of sand in the universe...Why even make anything outside of heaven... I don't think believers have put a real effort on if there realy was a god what the heck would even bother with us...Would you?

For a second take god out of existance...There are countless ways life could of happen...Now add god back in and you were god... I have a universe with maybe 100's of millions of planets...My only thing Im worried about is getting humans to heaven?

I hope Im still alive when everyone wakes up..

[alive]

He's not capable? What do you think he thinks omnipotence to mean?

Omnipotence - the power to do anything.

Logical contradictions are not any 'thing' to be done in the first place.

But Logic is all us humans realy have...

[AquinasD]

But Logic is all us humans realy have...

What? I don't understand what you mean to say.

To elaborate, I mean that omnipotence means the power to do anything. If you took together all the possible substantial things in one set, like this;

{A, B, C, D, E...}

You might find things like circles, squares, dogs, chairs, and Elvis, but you will never come across any logical contradictions. This is because a logical contradiction denotes nothing. A 'square circle' isn't a thing at all; it cannot be imagined or conceived, it does not exist in any possible world. It simply ain't a thing to be done in the first place.

Hence, when we attribute omnipotence to God, this includes the ability to do all things. God's omnipotence isn't missing anything by not being able to do logical contradictions, because they aren't properly speaking a thing to be lacked in the first place. You're only getting confused by language if you think this is some problem. There might be a grammatical difference between logical contradictions, i.e. square circle vs. square triangle vs. given virtue, but they all resolve to the same nothing, there is no substantial difference between one logical contradiction and another.

[The Tongue]

Why would god have us do this stupid step? Why even be born? Just wake up in heaven.. We make no sense. A true god that most are wanting that created everything in the universe would not need living specks of like on a grain of sand in the universe...Why even make anything outside of heaven... I don't think believers have put a real effort on if there realy was a god what the heck would even bother with us...Would you?

For a second take god out of existance...There are countless ways life could of happen...Now add god back in and you were god... I have a universe with maybe 100's of millions of planets...My only thing Im worried about is getting humans to heaven?

I hope Im still alive when everyone wakes up..

I went around to see a mate, found him laying in the yard
With the shotgun still beside him, his toe hooked in the trigger guard
Half his head was missing, but I’m sure he felt no pain
He thought his life was worthless and there was nothing to be gained
And though his body now returns again, to the earth from which it came
His disembodied spirit, with no eyes, no ears, no brain
Was aware he had rejected the salvation of the Lord
And now in terror he awaits, his ultimate reward.


What is the reward that the mind receives?
Surely it is --- what that mind believes
So the mind that rejects eternity
When freed from its body, where will it be?

What is that body that gave to "YOU" birth?
Is it nothing but elements taken from earth?
Or was it created from the spirits and souls
Of your ancestors who --- are from times that are old?
Believe as you will, but remember this verse,
When your coffin is placed in the back of the hearse;
The reward that the mind must surely receive
Is that which the "MIND" (Not in the hearse) believes.......By The Tongue.

[ttruscott]

It seems that my meaning about our being created in GOD's image is confusing some...so I'll answer here.

The image of GOD has nothing to do with race, or human shape or sex...since I believe we were all created as spirits without bodies at all.

It means we were created as persons as opposed to non-persons, that we are individuals, self aware, creative and capable of an emotional relationship with the ability to make true free will choices.

Not to inject too much reality into this, but what about the billions of humans who lived before even the OT was written?

so I guess you missed the part: So, as I have been led to understand events of our creation until our birth on earth ...

which means that this list of "creation events" I believe all happened pre-earth (pre-physical universe probably), in the spirit world and all your billions were there participating in creating their self chosen futures by true free will decisions.

It also answers "What about those who never even heard or were told of him and the whole story?" as everyone was there participating, no one missed it.

So there is the gift of free will, but you'll be punished for eternity if you don't choose what the deity wants you to choose. Bit of a poisoned present innit? It's also unclear exactly what the choice is based on. Personal preference? Predetermination? Lack of information about good and bad?

Punished?
Indeed but with a caveat of two:

1. Everyone knew that they were promised to be chosen / elected to become his church if they accepted his will for their creation.

2. Everyone knew that once elect, if they should fall into sin they would still be under his gospel promise to them to never turn against them and to do all in his power to redeem them from sin and sanctify them unto holiness so they could come back to their first true free will decision to accept his will.

[Aside: You will notice I did not capitalize HIS name here...that is to indicate that HE hid his power and glory and appeared the same as everyone else so that his obvious divinity would not coerce their decision but leave them free to chose with full knowledge but no proof which life they wanted to live.]

4. Everyone also knew fully the (supposed) consequences of rejecting his will would put them outside of his will, his love and his communion forever making them unable to ever fufill his plan for them thereby rendering themselves unfit for anything except being removed to hell.

And about, "It's also unclear exactly what the choice is based on. Personal preference? Predetermination? Lack of information about good and bad?" I'm so glad you asked...I hoped someone might be interested,

Learning the full details of the (supposed) consequences of our decision made the choice a true choice and not just a guess. But knowing these (supposed) consequences also gave us a framework from which we could choose,

choose which kind of life we wanted to have, which kind of life we hoped to have by making this choice:

1. a life with a GOD who was perfect and created us to join HIM in that perfection and in loving holy communion forever, taking him at his word
or
2. a life in which we were just as important as the false god, better in fact because we were not liars about ourselves. A life in which we are our own GOD and our laws and our love is the epitomé of perfection. A life in which we bow to no one.
or
3. anything inbetween that can be conceptualised, including the whole pantheon of other (false) gods.

We put our faith where our true heart lay and chose.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

To continue:...

...

5th. the rebellion of some of HIS elect against HIS damnation of the non-elect so that these elect too became sinners, outside of HIS will but not of HIS love.

So if one's morals conflict with the will of the big boss, you're bad as well. Who gave them these morals in the first place?

They were not moral yet. We were not created having a moral concience since that would coerce our choices. A good person is beyond sin. A bad person has fallen into sin.

We were ingenuous innocents who had accepted his (supposed - still no proof) will and therefore his definitions of morality but on this question we decided we liked the damned well enough to reject his plan, not putting our faith into accepting his plan of damnation as the best thing to do. It is on earth that we learn morality and are exercised in its applications.

6th. And so HE created the physical universe and earth in particular where HIS sinful elect would have perfectly predestined lives whereby they could feel the suffering that sin causes and learn by experience that the non-elect will never repent and so must be damned.

Earth in particular? What's 99.999999999999... percent of the universe for then?

If it's predestined (no choice) then how is there anything to learn? It's already predestined that they will not repent then?

Ah the great universe is ours to explore once we have been resurected into our spiritual bodies - a vast and amazing playground as you suggest.

AS for our predestined lives: a rejection of GOD's plan for our creation by the first true free will decision (point 4, I think, of my list) was clearly warned to be an eternal choice, unchangeable once proof was offered because HIS plan (a loving relationship) could only be fulfilled of by a true free will choice and proof of his divinity would end that freedom of will by forcing the person to repent only for his own interest, not out of any interest in pleasing a (supposed) god by faith...thereby rendering his repentance empty and his ability to please GOD null and void.

So obviously this world was not made for them but so the elect who fell into sin could repent. In fact, election is the promise of GOD to never quit until they all do repent and the gospel is the method HE chose to achieve their repentence, redemption and sanctification.

Our lives are predestined to train our will, our decision making process, until we are fully sancified ie 100% commited to His holy plan forever.

That is why we are here and that is why satan struggles so fiercely to keep us in our sins, for the longer HIS elect are in sin, satan is safe from the postponed judgment.

This God figure isn't omnipotent after all?

Peace, Ted

Most of the story doesn't sound very peaceful to me...

Ahhh, the omnipotent GOD waiting for HIS sinful elect to learn to accept HIS judgment of HIS enemies, a contradiction you think?

Actually it is an expression of HIS constancy. He promised before we chose, to elect us to heaven by means of the gospel if it should be needed on our behalf (a method necessitating the death of HIS Son), if we should accept HIS plan.

We accepted HIS plan.
WE were elected to HIS CHurch forever.
WE rebelled and fell into sin over the damnation of the non-elect.

IF HE had decreed the damnation of all sinners at this time, HE would have damned HIS sinful elect against HIS promise so,

HE postponed the judgment day until all HIS sinful elect were back on board with HIS plan.

This is the meaning of the parable of the Wheat and the Tares in Matthew 13.

The earth was created as the reform planet for the sinful elect to receive the gospel promise and learn holiness.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

And yet Trinitarian Christians insist that God is a logical contradiction. There is one God. The Son of God is God. God the Father is God. But the Son is not the Father.

For one, Christians do not insist God is a logical contradiction. You might believe that the Trinity is a logical contradiction, but that is apart from it being the Christian's stated belief that God is a logical contradiction. Your objection here is completely irrelevant.

Yes - excellent reply.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

...

Yes yes, others will say "only god understands why he did it this way" and/or "we aren't smart enough to grasp the concept of god and what he does" blah blah blah...
...

I have answered. I do not say this.
Do you change the words of your song?

Peace, Ted
I knew the words of every song.
Did my singing please you?
No, the words you sang were wrong.
~ Leonard Cohen

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 32:

To elaborate, I mean that omnipotence means the power to do anything. If you took together all the possible substantial things in one set, like this;

Note the qualifier - "substantial". Who get's to decide what constitutes substantial?

I propose that an omnipotent being is, by definition, sittin' there doin' him some omnipotin'.

This is because a logical contradiction denotes nothing.

A logical contradiction denotes a contradiction in logic, hence, it denotes something.

A 'square circle' isn't a thing at all; it cannot be imagined or conceived...

Yet here you go doing both of it.

it does not exist in any possible world.

Much like an 'omnipotent' god that can't get a handle on it.

Hence, when we attribute omnipotence to God, this includes the ability to do all things.

'Cept those things you point out an omnipotent God can't do.

God's omnipotence isn't missing anything...

'Cept the ability to do it.

by not being able to do logical contradictions, because they aren't properly speaking a thing to be lacked in the first place.

Can an omnipotent God define "proper"?

You're only getting confused by language if you think this is some problem.

I contend the one confused by language is the one carryin' on about how God is omnipotent, but dangitall, he just can't do the one thing that shows he is.

There might be a grammatical difference between logical contradictions, i.e. square circle vs. square triangle vs. given virtue, but they all resolve to the same nothing, there is no substantial difference between one logical contradiction and another.

Are we to suppose only God can define what it constitutes to be "substantial"?

[AquinasD]

Note the qualifier - "substantial". Who get's to decide what constitutes substantial?

The only reason for my qualification is I wish to differentiate between that which is denoted by language, and the grammar of language.

A logical contradiction denotes a contradiction in logic, hence, it denotes something.

When a word denotes, it simply means that thing itself. For instance, 'circle' denotes the round shape. 'Square' denotes a shape with 4 sides of equal length and every internal angle being 90º.

'Square circle' does not denote anything.

'Logical contradiction' denotes an arrangement of concepts which are not compossible, and resultantly the arranged concepts denote nothing.

I don't know why you're trying to pick this point apart. Are you really meaning that a 'square circle' is possible? If not, then I reckon we're already agreed on this point, and I'm only elaborating.

Yet here you go doing both of it.

If you conceive it, what is it like?

'Cept those things you point out an omnipotent God can't do.

He only can't do it because it isn't something to be done.

Your objection here is so thoroughly pointless. If I were to tell you that "I have eaten all kinds of meats," it wouldn't make sense to try and contradict me by saying "But you've never eaten bok choy!" Bok choy was simply never meant to be included.

Or, if I were to say "I can conceive any kind of geometrical shape," you're not refuting me by saying "You can't conceive a square circle!" A square circle just ain't anything in the first place.

Likewise, when by omnipotence we mean "the power to do all things," the all doesn't include logical contradictions. This is because logical contradictions do not denote things. They are non-things, nothings. See how I might say "There is nothing God cannot do," which means the same as "God can do all things." In the negative form, it is explicitly stated God cannot do nothing. If you think omnipotence requires being able to instantiate square circles, why don't you include nothing as something that God might instantiate?

[99percentatheism]

Why would god have us do this stupid step? Why even be born? Just wake up in heaven.. We make no sense. A true god that most are wanting that created everything in the universe would not need living specks of like on a grain of sand in the universe...Why even make anything outside of heaven... I don't think believers have put a real effort on if there realy was a god what the heck would even bother with us...Would you?

For a second take god out of existance...There are countless ways life could of happen...Now add god back in and you were god... I have a universe with maybe 100's of millions of planets...My only thing Im worried about is getting humans to heaven?

I hope Im still alive when everyone wakes up..

I just got back from a speaking tour. Life is fun overall. It's like living a novel with new chapters being written just about every day.

We are already IN eternity. Enjoy the ride in the corporeal jungle.

If we take your position, then no one should even have a desire to have a child. But, the desire to procreate is obvioulsy more then just spreading the selfish gene. Many humans have children for reasons of love. ALWAYS, knowing that the person that they are "creating" may and indeed WILL suffer somewhere along the life journey. But, on that journey is also offered joy that's unspeakable.

"Let us make man after our image. After our likeness," said God.

It is the antithesis of intellectualism to believe that there is no God,"

We mimick Him too often for that to be sensible.