Jesus was a blameless sinless man according to the NT. How does the killing of the innocent atone for the sins of the wicked? Am I correct in saying that if Jesus had not been killed and resurrected, then God would not be in a position to forgive us of our sins?
In the real world, it is completely nonsensical to kill the innocent to atone for the wicked. On the contrary, it is probably one of the worst injustices that could occur. Where is the logic and sense in God having the most innocent of innocents killed so that He can forgive us?
Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked
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Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked
Post #31RESPONSE: Jesus was crucified by the Romans for insurrection by claiming to be the Messiah who was as described by scripture as the king of the Jews.jgh7 wrote: Jesus was a blameless sinless man according to the NT. How does the killing of the innocent atone for the sins of the wicked? Am I correct in saying that if Jesus had not been killed and resurrected, then God would not be in a position to forgive us of our sins?
In the real world, it is completely nonsensical to kill the innocent to atone for the wicked. On the contrary, it is probably one of the worst injustices that could occur. Where is the logic and sense in God having the most innocent of innocents killed so that He can forgive us?
His shameful death was disheartening to his followers. In the early 50's, Paul claimed that the real reason for Jesus' death was to atone for the sins of man. (Human sacrifice is condemned by scripture). However, Paul's story was more palatable than an execution for insurrection, so it caught on among Jesus' followers.And is claimed even to this day.
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Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked
Post #32The 'we' could refer to all those who individually chose to sin as one group called sinners, hmmmm?marco wrote:So much theory is washed into this little pronoun, "we." Humanity does not act as a unit though one may erroneously judge it to do so.hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Elijah John]
The idea is that we allowed him to win us all over to his side. Hence, he has the right to govern us.
could you explain this "consensus in sin"? What are we agreeing upon?Atonement requires human consensus in sin; we don't have that.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked
Post #33If Christ was atoning not simply for Adam's mistake but for the sins of mankind, then we are all in a sinful pact, as it were, with Adam. There are many people who are horrendously bad and others who are admirably good. There is no mass sinfulness and no requirement to atone for anything. We are the clay products of our maker and we do what we were designed to do.ttruscott wrote:
Could you explain this "consensus in sin"? What are we agreeing upon?
Christ's death sentence for blasphemy is possibly a personal misfortune. There is no logical way his short existence and death relate to, say, the sins of Genghis Khan.
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Post #34
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Re: Kill an Innocent to Atone For the Wicked
Post #35Ahhh, yes. I too argue against our being created as sinners by making us human in Adam because GOD cannot create evil.marco wrote:If Christ was atoning not simply for Adam's mistake but for the sins of mankind, then we are all in a sinful pact, as it were, with Adam. There are many people who are horrendously bad and others who are admirably good. There is no mass sinfulness and no requirement to atone for anything.ttruscott wrote:
Could you explain this "consensus in sin"? What are we agreeing upon?
IF indeed we were created as humans in Adam, I agree. But since that's impossible according to WHO HE IS, then a new look was called for that kept GOD holy and yet us sinful and it was found in our pre-conception sins by our free will in Sheol. Then I was quite surprised at how many hints there were in the Bible which due to the bias toward our being created on earth have been ignored.We are the clay products of our maker and we do what we were designed to do.
Well, uuumm, there is one possible way and that is if He really was divine and everyone who became a sinner rejected Him in one way or another before they were born as human...Christ's death sentence for blasphemy is possibly a personal misfortune. There is no logical way his short existence and death relate to, say, the sins of Genghis Khan.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.