Leave us alone

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Youkilledkenny
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Leave us alone

Post #1

Post by Youkilledkenny »

Big proponent here of 'live and let live'. So long as your actions don't directly impact me & my family in a negative way, I don't much care how you live your life.
If you want to talk to burning bushes, have at it.
If you want to shop only on Sunday, go for it.
Mary and Beth that lives on the other side of the country wants to get married? Better you than me so enjoy.
Want to smoke 172 packs of cigs a day? Gross but ok - just don't blow the smoke on me.
If you wasn't to stand on your roof on one leg in a purple dress waiting for the cashmul equinox knock yourself out.
Why is it that Christians find the need to make society that we all share (muslim, jew, agnostic, atheists, satanists, scientologists, worshippers of the blood diamond - whatever) try to fit their paradigm?
Is it arrogance in thinking your way is the only right way?
Are you trying to make the world a 'better place'?
Do you just like forcing your beliefs on others thinking it will but you into God's good graces and eventually heaven?
Or are you hiding behind a belief in order to be a jerk?

Why can't you, the Christian, live and answer for your life while allowing everyone else to do the same?
What makes your life and belief so special that it supersedes everyone else's?

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Leave us alone

Post #31

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Clownboat wrote:
As one of Jehovah's Witnesses we don'the try to change the world through politics, we don't vote. We preach to people because that is part of our worship.
It is part of my worship to the actual, one, true, real god that I go door to door at 2am to sing praise and worship songs to it.

It's part of my worship... so it's OK right?

What if it's part of my worship to be racist to a certain group of people because my religion tells me that one of their ancestors murdered their brother and his offspring are now cursed with different skin (for example)?

Seems to be just another example of people using religion to justify poor behavior.
Undesirable behavior is undesirable whether we try to justify it with religious reasons or not.

"It's part of my worship" does not change this nor justify it.
Racism is against the Jehovah's Witnesse religion. It's part of our worship to love all races of people regardless ofor skin colour.

Nobody can dictate what you feel is okay, if you feel it's okay to be racist then that's up to you, its part of our religion to try and educated you otherwise, but we cannot change every heart bent on evil. God only asks us to try to reeducate racists.

We have laws to govern unacceptable behaviour.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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bluethread
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Re: Leave us alone

Post #32

Post by bluethread »

Bust Nak wrote:
bluethread wrote:So, if I make a cake for myself, I can make it any way I want. However, if I sell that cake, I am obligated BY LAW to make another cake according to your specifications?
Within reason yes, you should be obligated BY LAW to make another cake according to my reasonable specifications.
So, we are going to use the reasonable man standard. You are aware that is a judgement call and not a statutory standard?
Is a Kosher bakery legally obligated to make "authentic" croissants, i.e. using lard?
No, that's rather unreasonable. This is what I had in mind: A Kosher bakery which make croissants, should be legally obligated to sell said croissants to non Kosher customers, including someone who intents to fill it with bacon, to serve at an "alt right" convention.
Well, I know of no one who refused to sell what they make to anyone. What I have heard about is people requiring someone to alter what one makes in a way that is equivalent to asking a Glatt Kosher deli to serve cheeseburgers, if not pulled pork sandwiches, at an voodoo ritual.
I said federal government rather than all government, because the federal government is the extreme. For me, the more local the better.
Okay, does that mean it's more acceptable to you for local government to force bakers to sell gay wedding cakes?
I am a free market person, so I think people should not be required to sell anything to anybody. However, if the Mission district of San Francisco were to pass such an ordinance, that would make much more sense than a federal mandate. The first recognizes the culture of the community, the latter is just draconian oppression.
However, why is that required of Christians, but not of secular people?
Loaded question cannot be answered. What made you think it is not required of secular people?
Why does a secular government require me to support things I do not believe in?
Governments do that because they have a mandate and a duty to require people to do certain things, even things certain people do not believe in; especially things people do not believe in, since people are normally willing to do the things they believe in without prodding from the government.
Well, in these United States, the government must have a compelling national interest. What is the compelling national interest in this case. In other words, as the OP puts it, why can't they just leave us alone?
Note the difference between material support such as supplying goods, and approval. You don't have to like gay weddings to provide a gay wedding cake, only the latter is required.
However, the latter is a good that the vendor does not make, presuming a "gay" cake is any different from any other cake. Why can't the customer just buy a regular wedding cake and make it "gay"? By the way, what makes a cake "gay"?

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OnceConvinced
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Re: Leave us alone

Post #33

Post by OnceConvinced »

Blastcat wrote:
However, it has come to my attention that the golden rule is outdated and just plain wrong.

I don't want people to treat me how they want to be treated themselves. I want to be treated the way that I want to be treated. I don't CARE how others want to be treated, and I might not WANT to be treated how they want to be.
Such a great point. I'm reminded of my best friend who believes that if you have a guest turn up for a visit, you should simply get the guest a cup of tea without even asking if they want one.

My best friend felt that was like following the golden rule, (he would hope any host would do that for him), but to me it would be like imposing something on me that I never asked for. Something I didn't want or feel like having. I would be in a situation where I felt I had to accept the drink so as not to offend my host.

The golden rule may have good intentions, but it's not always a good one to follow.
We first need to know whether the people we are applying the golden rule to actually really do want to be treated the same way as we do.

The teaching of the golden rule shows a real flaw in the character of Jesus. We see this flaw throughout the New Testament and that is the belief that we are all the same. We all see things the same way and we all have no excuse for disbelief. A truly divine being would know that we all see things differently. We all have different temperaments. Not all of us can live by faith. Not all of us see things the same way. A divine being would make allowances for these differences.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

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Blastcat
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Re: Leave us alone

Post #34

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 33 by OnceConvinced]

[center]


If Jesus was right, we'd all be eating them little very salty fish
[/center]

Blastcat wrote: However, it has come to my attention that the golden rule is outdated and just plain wrong.

I don't want people to treat me how they want to be treated themselves. I want to be treated the way that I want to be treated. I don't CARE how others want to be treated, and I might not WANT to be treated how they want to be.
OnceConvinced wrote:
Such a great point. I'm reminded of my best friend who believes that if you have a guest turn up for a visit, you should simply get the guest a cup of tea without even asking if they want one.
I like anchovies on my pizza..

By the golden rule, everybody should like anchovies on their pizzas.. have the anchovies. No.. I INSIST that you eat the fish. Now eat them raw.. with the heads on.. that's right EAT it.. Open up, open OPEN.. swallow.. swallow. Open your mouth so I can see that you swallowed.

That's the the golden rule.

PTUI on the Golden rule.

OnceConvinced wrote:
I would be in a situation where I felt I had to accept the drink so as not to offend my host.
If you don't drink the tea, you don't love Jesus, you heathen.
If it was me, you'd be having freshly squeezed fish juice, so be grateful.

OnceConvinced wrote:
We first need to know whether the people we are applying the golden rule to actually really do want to be treated the same way as we do.
I SAY NO.
Eat the fish and LIKE it like I do.

OnceConvinced wrote:
The teaching of the golden rule shows a real flaw in the character of Jesus.
I'm not sure about the character. I think it says something about his vaunted "wisdom", though. Moral teacher?

How about HE eats the fish heads?

“I know that human being and fish can coexist peacefully.�
George W. Bush

Look @ time stamp 3:58 of this video:



Listen to president Bush.
Fish and human being can coexist.. now EAT the anchovies.

Do what I want you to do.. be treated the way that I say I want to be treated because Jesus said that's the way that you have to be treated.



:)

Youkilledkenny
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Re: Leave us alone

Post #35

Post by Youkilledkenny »

[Replying to post 27 by bluethread]
I would prefer people follow my example.
PREFER seems to indicate you're willing to FORCE people to follow you. In other words, it could be said "I would prefer people follow my example, but I will make them follow my example when I need to do so."
Or similar
why is that required of Christians, but not of secular people
Maybe you can start a thread to discuss this point?

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Re: Leave us alone

Post #36

Post by Clownboat »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Clownboat wrote:
As one of Jehovah's Witnesses we don'the try to change the world through politics, we don't vote. We preach to people because that is part of our worship.
It is part of my worship to the actual, one, true, real god that I go door to door at 2am to sing praise and worship songs to it.

It's part of my worship... so it's OK right?

What if it's part of my worship to be racist to a certain group of people because my religion tells me that one of their ancestors murdered their brother and his offspring are now cursed with different skin (for example)?

Seems to be just another example of people using religion to justify poor behavior.
Undesirable behavior is undesirable whether we try to justify it with religious reasons or not.

"It's part of my worship" does not change this nor justify it.
Racism is against the Jehovah's Witnesse religion. It's part of our worship to love all races of people regardless ofor skin colour.
JW, there is only one race of humans. You claim to not be racist, while separating humans into different races based on nothing but their skin color. Much like the KKK.
Nobody can dictate what you feel is okay, if you feel it's okay to be racist then that's up to you, its part of our religion to try and educated you otherwise, but we cannot change every heart bent on evil. God only asks us to try to reeducate racists.
Says the guy who claims the color of our skin determines our race. You trying to slay me with irony? We are all Homo sapiens sapiens. This is the human race no matter what color our skin is.
We have laws to govern unacceptable behavior.
And....? My point was that "It's part of my worship" does not justify nor excuse poor behavior. Don't you agree?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

Bust Nak
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Re: Leave us alone

Post #37

Post by Bust Nak »

bluethread wrote: So, we are going to use the reasonable man standard. You are aware that is a judgement call and not a statutory standard?
Why is that a problem, the courts appeal to judgement calls all the time.
Well, I know of no one who refused to sell what they make to anyone.
The law is for those instances where they don't.
What I have heard about is people requiring someone to alter what one makes in a way that is equivalent to asking a Glatt Kosher deli to serve cheeseburgers, if not pulled pork sandwiches, at an voodoo ritual.
Why would pulled pork be on the menu at a Kosher deli? What makes cheeseburgers non Glatt Kosher?

If a Glatt Kosher deli happens to serve cheeseburgers and pulled pork sandwiches, they are legally obligated to sell it to people who intent to eat it at an voodoo ritual.
I am a free market person, so I think people should not be required to sell anything to anybody. However, if the Mission district of San Francisco were to pass such an ordinance, that would make much more sense than a federal mandate. The first recognizes the culture of the community, the latter is just draconian oppression.
Are all federal mandates automatically draconian? There are some 20,000 federal legislations, including many that deals with human rights.
Well, in these United States, the government must have a compelling national interest. What is the compelling national interest in this case.
The rights of its citizens.
In other words, as the OP puts it, why can't they just leave us alone?
Because they have a mandate and duty to protect the rights of its citizen. They will leave you alone if you are not threaten the rights of its citizen.
However, the latter is a good that the vendor does not make, presuming a "gay" cake is any different from any other cake.
Why would you make that presumption?
Why can't the customer just buy a regular wedding cake and make it "gay"?
It is a regular cake. The problem is certain bakers won't sell cake to customers knowing what purpose the customer had in mind.
By the way, what makes a cake "gay"?
The occasion where the cake is consumed.

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tam
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Re: Leave us alone

Post #38

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 34 by Blastcat]

I like anchovies on my pizza..

By the golden rule, everybody should like anchovies on their pizzas.. have the anchovies. No.. I INSIST that you eat the fish. Now eat them raw.. with the heads on.. that's right EAT it.. Open up, open OPEN.. swallow.. swallow. Open your mouth so I can see that you swallowed.

That's the the golden rule.

That's NOT the golden rule, and I think TOTN summed up WHY that is not the golden rule in his post to you on page one (I think page one), regarding S&M.


Do you want people to force you to eat something you don't want? Then you don't force others to eat something they don't want.


Simple.




Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Leave us alone

Post #39

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Clownboat wrote:
Racism is against the Jehovah's Witnesse religion. It's part of our worship to love all races of people regardless ofor skin colour.
JW, there is only one race of humans. You claim to not be racist, while separating humans into different races based on nothing but their skin color. Much like the KKK.
You are right, I was wrong to refer to races as if humans do not have a common ancestry. Thank you for pointing that out I absolutely accept I was wrong to use the term in such a way; I should have referred to "nationalities" or "ethnic groups"

I was wrong to use the expression "race"* as it could be misconstrued.

It is part of our religion to love all human beings no matter which part of the world they are born, what language they speak and regardless of their skin colour or physical features.


Image

Jehovah's Witness


*RACE
noun
1.
a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2.
a population so related.
4.
a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic lineage:
the Slavic race.
5.
any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.:
the Dutch race.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Blastcat
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Re: Leave us alone

Post #40

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 38 by tam]




[center]Lets treat people how they want to be treated[/center]

tam wrote:
That's NOT the golden rule, and I think TOTN summed up WHY that is not the golden rule in his post to you on page one (I think page one), regarding S&M.

Do you want people to force you to eat something you don't want? Then you don't force others to eat something they don't want.

Simple.
Simplistic, maybe.
And quite wrong, in a very important way:

The Golden Rule expects that how I want to be treated is how you want to be treated.

There are problems with the Golden Rule.
That's why smarter people have coined what's called the "platinum rule"


[center]"Lets treat people how they want to be treated"[/center]


That's a lot more simple, and more clear, and don't have the problem of projecting our wants and desires onto others. It's all very well to treat people like we want to be treated if that's what they WANT. The Golden Rule forgets that not everyone wants the same thing.

The Golden Rule fails if we really think about it.
The Platinum Rule is way way better.


That's the thing about thinking.. we can and do progress.
Jesus and his "Golden Rule" has been surpassed.


Odd, don't you think?



:)

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