Another Bible Blunder?

[RedEye]

It is a fact that if you continue to fabricate stories and events (ie. tell lies) that sooner or later you will contradict yourself because of not being able to remember what was stated earlier. This is called not being able to keep your lies straight.

Here is an example of Jesus telling us a "truth":

• John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven"the Son of Man.

There is no qualification here by Jesus. The author of John also tells us that Jesus is the Word (Logos) and was there with God right from the very beginning of everything (John 1:1-14). That means that Jesus (the Word) was right there alongside God (he was an aspect of God) in heaven until he came down to Earth for a brief time.

Let's now go back a few centuries before Jesus (allegedly) appeared in human form and look at Elijah (who incidentally performed similar miracles to Jesus including raising someone from the dead - a role model!):

• 2 Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

So Elijah was taken up into heaven where Jesus was there waiting. How can that possibly be reconciled with what Jesus stated unequivocally in John 3:13? Did Jesus completely forget about Elijah? (Selective amnesia seems to be a common theme in the Bible). Isn't this just another instance of when you say enough things and you are making it up, it is impossible to keep the lies straight? Sooner or later you are caught out.

[JehovahsWitness]

And how about the parable of the rich man and Lazurus. "Father Abraham" was in Heaven in that story, was he not?

The Jehovah's Witness understanding is that the above was just a story, a parable ,(a fictional story to teach a moral) and not to be taken literally.

PARABLE

A usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parable

Hope that helps,

JW

[Hawkins]

So Elijah was taken up into heaven where Jesus was there waiting. How can that possibly be reconciled with what Jesus stated unequivocally in John 3:13? Did Jesus completely forget about Elijah? (Selective amnesia seems to be a common theme in the Bible). Isn't this just another instance of when you say enough things and you are making it up, it is impossible to keep the lies straight? Sooner or later you are caught out.

Why do you have to assume that being a lie is beyond me. The same word can have different meanings. You don't have to assume that the Heaven in the two verses is with the same meaning.

Paul has been brought to the third heaven. Actually the first sentence of the Bible saying that "God created heavens (a plural) and earth.

Heaven can refer to a future realm (now could possibly still under building) where God will live with humans. Heaven can also refer to the current dwelling place of God where humans are also absent. The third meaning of Heaven refer to the Third Heaven (also referred to as Abraham's Bosom) where human saints are chosen to continue to work for God as witnesses for the final judgment to come. humans here include Moses and Elijah, that's why they appeared with Jesus in the mountain.

Figuratively Heaven as the current and future dwelling place of God is without any humans living inside. However as a sign of reconciliation, the Second Curtain leading to this Heaven is opened (by the crucifixion of Jesus Christ). The path to Heaven is made available to humans, yet by far no one human (not to count Jesus) ever entered this Heaven through the Second Curtain to step into God's dwelling place.

[ttruscott]

My quote is not wrong. Most standard Bible translations have either "except"or "but" or "save".

Did you see me argue that "except"or "but" or "save" were never used? You did not. You merely ignored my estimation of why they were used and the fallacy that created that you fell into. I believe this is called blinkered thinking...ignoring reports of the elephant's trunk because of an invested study in the whipish tail.

[ttruscott]

As explained, no words have been added.

The text shows they did. Your explanation only holds true if it is true but claiming it to be true without proof is just plain wrong.

You can't just add words in an ad hoc manner.

Bible translators with an agenda have been doing this forever... I at least expressed my agenda in the [ ] as the proper method of making agenda assertions dictates, not trying to hide my agenda as the many other translations have taken to doing.

Do you really believe that the various Bible translators were idiots?

An intelligent man with an agenda does more damage than your proverbial idiot.

What was the Translators Agenda?
...
But to suggest that the KJV translators had no agenda is blatantly dishonest.

[marco]

The path to Heaven is made available to humans, yet by far no one human (not to count Jesus) ever entered this Heaven through the Second Curtain to step into God's dwelling place.

The confusion arises from the ignorant belief that heaven is in the sky, so by association or metonymy, the sky and heaven are the same. Someone going to heaven, in the primitive thinking of 2 millennia ago would take the upward train through the clouds. In dealing with humans God would obligingly step on to a mountain, since common sense tells one that this is the quick route ex paradiso. Your lace curtains are perhaps a modern detail, presumably green in colour.


Edward Lear showed that nonsense could rhyme and entertain. Religious nonsense fills one with a sense of despair that, however enlightened we become, we cling like clams to ancestral superstitions.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 31 by JehovahsWitness]

The Jehovah's Witness understanding is that the above was just a story, a parable ,(a fictional story to teach a moral) and not to be taken literally.

Quote:
PARABLE

A usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parable

And what are the required evidences and objective criteria for determining which of the biblical writings are NOT fictional ...?

[marco]

The Jehovah's Witness understanding is that the above was just a story, a parable ,(a fictional story to teach a moral) and not to be taken literally.

No parable is taken literally. The details of the parable hold up to examination: we know Jerusalem and Jericho, and we understand about prodigality, lost coins and so on. There are no examples of parables that completely mislead the listener, as you are suggesting here. Christ offered his understanding of a post mortem situation - why would he invent a false theology to illustrate his point?

[1213]

There is no qualification here by Jesus. The author of John also tells us that Jesus is the Word (Logos) and was there with God right from the very beginning of everything (John 1:1-14). That means that Jesus (the Word) was right there alongside God (he was an aspect of God) in heaven until he came down to Earth for a brief time.

Interesting thing is, John doesnt really directly say Jesus was the word, it is just the common interpretation.

Are you claiming that there is more than one heaven?

There is sky and there is heaven. It is possible and probable that they are not the same in Bible.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 38 by 1213]

There is sky and there is heaven. It is possible and probable that they are not the same in Bible.

This biblical dome of air we now live in was opened in the waters of the universe by the Elohim of Genesis One ...

The dome was called "Heaven".

We live in Heaven.

[RedEye]

So Elijah was taken up into heaven where Jesus was there waiting. How can that possibly be reconciled with what Jesus stated unequivocally in John 3:13? Did Jesus completely forget about Elijah? (Selective amnesia seems to be a common theme in the Bible). Isn't this just another instance of when you say enough things and you are making it up, it is impossible to keep the lies straight? Sooner or later you are caught out.

Why do you have to assume that being a lie is beyond me. The same word can have different meanings. You don't have to assume that the Heaven in the two verses is with the same meaning.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm taking the normal Christian doctrine on the matter - that there is a singular place called Heaven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Christianity

• In Christianity, heaven is traditionally the location of the throne of God as well as the holy angels.[2][3] In traditional Christianity, it is considered to be a physical place in the afterlife. In most forms of Christianity, heaven is also understood as the abode for the righteous dead in the afterlife, usually a temporary stage before the resurrection of the dead and the saints' return to the New Earth.
  
  The resurrected Jesus is said to have ascended to heaven where he now sits at the Right Hand of God and will return to earth in the Second Coming. Various people have been said to have entered heaven while still alive, including Enoch, Elijah and Jesus himself, after his resurrection. According to Roman Catholic teaching, Mary, the mother of Jesus, is also said to have been assumed into heaven and is titled the Queen of Heaven.

Paul has been brought to the third heaven.

The OP has nothing to do with what Paul may or may not have believed.

Actually the first sentence of the Bible saying that "God created heavens (a plural) and earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_ ... gy#Heavens

• Grammatically the word shamayim can be either dual (two) or plural (more than two), without ruling out the singular (one).[37] As a result, it is not clear whether there were one, two, or more heavens in the Old Testament,[38] but most likely there was only one, and phrases such as "heaven of heavens" were meant to stress the vastness of God's realm.[34]

Heaven can refer to a future realm (now could possibly still under building) where God will live with humans.

Not according to standard Christian theology.

Heaven can also refer to the current dwelling place of God where humans are also absent.

Except for Elijah, Enoch and possibly Mary. See first Wikipedia link above.

The third meaning of Heaven refer to the Third Heaven (also referred to as Abraham's Bosom) where human saints are chosen to continue to work for God as witnesses for the final judgment to come. humans here include Moses and Elijah, that's why they appeared with Jesus in the mountain.

Third heaven is just a division of Heaven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Heaven

It's irrelevant what part of heaven Elijah was taken to since Jesus made no qualification in his statement that "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven".

Figuratively Heaven as the current and future dwelling place of God is without any humans living inside.

Not according to standard Christian theology. See first Wikipedia link above.

However as a sign of reconciliation, the Second Curtain leading to this Heaven is opened (by the crucifixion of Jesus Christ). The path to Heaven is made available to humans, yet by far no one human (not to count Jesus) ever entered this Heaven through the Second Curtain to step into God's dwelling place.

Since you quote no scripture I will ignore this assertion.