Another Bible Blunder?

[RedEye]

It is a fact that if you continue to fabricate stories and events (ie. tell lies) that sooner or later you will contradict yourself because of not being able to remember what was stated earlier. This is called not being able to keep your lies straight.

Here is an example of Jesus telling us a "truth":

• John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven"the Son of Man.

There is no qualification here by Jesus. The author of John also tells us that Jesus is the Word (Logos) and was there with God right from the very beginning of everything (John 1:1-14). That means that Jesus (the Word) was right there alongside God (he was an aspect of God) in heaven until he came down to Earth for a brief time.

Let's now go back a few centuries before Jesus (allegedly) appeared in human form and look at Elijah (who incidentally performed similar miracles to Jesus including raising someone from the dead - a role model!):

• 2 Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

So Elijah was taken up into heaven where Jesus was there waiting. How can that possibly be reconciled with what Jesus stated unequivocally in John 3:13? Did Jesus completely forget about Elijah? (Selective amnesia seems to be a common theme in the Bible). Isn't this just another instance of when you say enough things and you are making it up, it is impossible to keep the lies straight? Sooner or later you are caught out.

[StuartJ]

And Enoch ...

Furthermore, Genesis 5:22"29 states that Enoch lived 365 years, which is shorter than his peers, who are all recorded as dying at over 700 years of age. The brief account of Enoch in Genesis 5 ends with the cryptic note that "he [was] not; for God took him".[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_(ancestor_of_Noah)

How can this stuff be anything more than human-inspired, human-written mythology ...?

Yes indeed, when you make stuff up, based on other stuff, based on other stuff, you are eventually going get your stuff into a tangled, contradictory web of absurdity and obvious fabrication that no amount of apologetics, philosophy, psychology or poetics is going to straighten out for you.

It takes a certain state of the mind for it to seem like reality.

The biblical booklets of Enoch make fascinating - if protracted and garbled - reading, however.

With Enoch, we find that the giants of the biblical booklet of Genesis were a mile tall, for example - a detail not given in that particular "Word of God".

[Goose]

It is a fact that if you continue to fabricate stories and events (ie. tell lies) that sooner or later you will contradict yourself because of not being able to remember what was stated earlier. This is called not being able to keep your lies straight.

Here is an example of Jesus telling us a "truth":

• John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven"the Son of Man.

There is no qualification here by Jesus.

Jesus provides a contextual qualification earlier in verse 5 of the same chapter.

"5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."


This whole passage (3:1-21) is in relation to being born again and attaining eternal life though faith in the Son (3:16). In that context Jesus is saying no one has gone to heaven; that no one has gone to heaven on their own without the will of God making it so.

Further, in the verse right after (14) Jesus mentions Moses lifting up the snake (Numbers 21:9). As well Jesus betrays knowledge of Elijah elsewhere (Matthew 17:11-12). So it's unlikely that Jesus was unaware of the famous story of Elijah's ascension to heaven thereby mistakenly contradicting the account in 2 Kings. It's seems more likely that Jesus simply had a specific contextual meaning in mind when he said no one has ascended to heaven. Otherwise, in order to argue for a contradiction one must assume either:

• 1. Jesus had no knowledge of the story of the ascension of Elijah or;
  
  2. Jesus was implying the account of Elijah's ascension was false.

Both of these assumptions seems less likely than the assumption Jesus had a different contextual meaning in mind.

[ttruscott]

Isn't this just another instance of when you say enough things and you are making it up, it is impossible to keep the lies straight? Sooner or later you are caught out.

You've caught us! Centuries of biblical scholars have been trepidatiously waiting for someone to catch them up on this discontinuity. The horror!

Except your quote is wrong: John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven EXCEPT the one who came from heaven"the Son of Man. In the best editions the word except, even or that is, is put in [ ], which denote that they are theological words added into the text supposed to make our understanding easier...they are not in the text. The Greek is clear: No one has ever gone into heaven if not one who came from heaven"the Son of Man... https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-13.htm

If adding theological word is proper usage of scripture then I will add my own: No one has ever gone into heaven if they did not come down from heaven [LIKE] the Son of Man who came from heaven. This fits PCE theology perfectly without any contradiction with Elijah and Enoch at all.

A slew of orthodox commentaries upon this verse is on the next page at https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/3-13.htm though I know the orthodox folk here will put this to rest.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]

If adding theological word is proper usage of scripture then I will add my own

And "scripture" can mean just whatever you CHOOSE it to mean ....

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 3 by Goose]

Both of these assumptions seems less likely than the assumption Jesus had a different contextual meaning in mind.

And "scripture" can mean just whatever you CHOOSE it to mean ....

[Tart]

[Replying to post 3 by Goose]

Both of these assumptions seems less likely than the assumption Jesus had a different contextual meaning in mind.

And "scripture" can mean just whatever you CHOOSE it to mean ....

How would this be different the you "choosing"? Or redeye "choosing"?

[1213]

• John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven"the Son of Man.

There is no qualification here by Jesus. The author of John also tells us that Jesus is the Word (Logos) and was there with God right from the very beginning of everything (John 1:1-14). That means that Jesus (the Word) was right there alongside God (he was an aspect of God) in heaven until he came down to Earth for a brief time.

• 2 Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

So Elijah was taken up into heaven where Jesus was there waiting. How can that possibly be reconciled with what Jesus stated unequivocally in John 3:13? Did Jesus completely forget about Elijah?

Maybe it should be understood so that Elijah went to sky and Jesus to Gods place. Heaven has two meanings at least.

Also, the difference can be, the way it happened, Elijah was taken, Jesus ascended. It is not necessary the same thing.

And then I have the question, was Elijah really human, or was he an angel?

[marco]

Jesus provides a contextual qualification earlier in verse 5 of the same chapter.

No he doesn't. Goose does. The statement: "This is a pig" isn't "qualified" by an earlier statement that it is in fact a camel. What is being offered as a "qualification" is commonly called a contradiction.

Otherwise, in order to argue for a contradiction one must assume either:

1. Jesus had no knowledge of the story of the ascension of Elijah or;

2. Jesus was implying the account of Elijah's ascension was false.

Both of these assumptions seems less likely than the assumption Jesus had a different contextual meaning in mind.

People do contradict themselves, so "less likely" is an appeal to credit Jesus with infallibility.


In order to demonstrate a contradiction one simply writes Christ's statement "Nobody has gone to heaven," beside the statement that Elijah went to heaven. It is irrelevant HOW the contradiction came about, be it from Christ's amnesia, Christ's pomposity, Christ's disregard of what was known.... A contradiction is a contradiction. Maybe Christ was exasperated that folk failed to understand his manner of speaking.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 3 by Goose]

Both of these assumptions seems less likely than the assumption Jesus had a different contextual meaning in mind.

And "scripture" can mean just whatever you CHOOSE it to mean ....

How would this be different the you "choosing"? Or redeye "choosing"?

No difference AT ALL ...!

That's just one of the wonderful things about the wonderworld of religious make-believe ...

EVERYONE can choose their OWN meanings ...

And lots of people DO ...!

And if it's a matter of FAITH ...

NO ONE is ever WRONG ...

And no one needs trouble themselves with independently verifiable EVIDENCE