Where's the crime?

[Athetotheist]

While they were in the wilderness, the Israelites found a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. Then the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
(Numbers 15:32-35)

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath
(Mark 2:27)

Why would a deity who made a sabbath for man and not man for a sabbath command the execution of a man for gathering sticks on a sabbath?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah in post #29]

I could imagine a scenario where we are hiding from the enemy, and one of us goes out and collects sticks and risks the whole population getting caught and as a punishment we put them to death.

Can you imagine a scenario in which the enemy is accommodating enough to threaten you only on a sabbath?

The text has the man being executed for gathering sticks on a sabbath. No enemy has anything to do with it.

I'm not sure if you are willing to do what I am asking. Can you imagine a scenario where something as innocuous as picking up sticks deserves death?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Wootah in post #31]

I'm not sure if you are willing to do what I am asking. Can you imagine a scenario where something as innocuous as picking up sticks deserves death?

I think it's fair to say that such a scenario would require quite a bit of imagination.

In any case, what can be imagined is irrelevant. What we have to go on is the text itself, and the text itself tells us that a man is put to death for gathering sticks on the wrong day.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #23]

The woman repented, was sorry. And I think that shows she was not evil. In the case of the man, I believe he did not and was evil (unrighteous).

First----how do you know that the woman repented? The text doesn't tell us that she did.

That she was forgiven implies it.

Second----what makes you assume that the man was just evil? The text doesn't tell us that he was.

That he was judged implies he was.

Third----if those who commit adultery can be forgiven if they repent, why isn't that established in Deuteronomy 22:22?

I think mercy is allowed and possible also in OT, for example because of these:

Thus has Yahweh of Hosts spoken, saying, 'Execute true judgment, and show kindness and compassion every man to his brother.
Zech. 7:9
The LORD passed by before him and proclaimed: "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, and abounding in loyal love and faithfulness, keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children and children's children, to the third and fourth generation."
Ex. 34:6-7
Evil men borrow, but do not repay their debt, but the godly [=righteous] show compassion [= gracious, merciful] and are generous.
Ps. 37:21

I think this is also nice example of God's mercy:
But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was angry. He prayed to Yahweh, and said, "Please, Yahweh, wasn't this what I said when I was still in my own country? Therefore I hurried to flee to Tarshish, for I knew that you are a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and abundant in loving kindness, and you repent of the evil.
Jonah 4:1-2
Shouldn't I be concerned for Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred twenty thousand persons who can't discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
Jonah 4:11

Do you see the complications here?

No.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah in post #31]

I'm not sure if you are willing to do what I am asking. Can you imagine a scenario where something as innocuous as picking up sticks deserves death?

I think it's fair to say that such a scenario would require quite a bit of imagination.

In any case, what can be imagined is irrelevant. What we have to go on is the text itself, and the text itself tells us that a man is put to death for gathering sticks on the wrong day.

And we both understand how there are contexts where that makes sense and we both as reasonable debaters accept that this is one of those times and why it was highlighted in the Bible. It was not the norm.

Isn't the thread reasonably resolved? Yes it is a shocking story.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #33]

if those who commit adultery can be forgiven if they repent, why isn't that established in Deuteronomy 22:22?

I think mercy is allowed and possible also in OT, for example because of these:

Thus has Yahweh of Hosts spoken, saying, 'Execute true judgment, and show kindness and compassion every man to his brother.
Zech. 7:9
The LORD passed by before him and proclaimed: "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, and abounding in loyal love and faithfulness, keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children and children's children, to the third and fourth generation."
Ex. 34:6-7
Evil men borrow, but do not repay their debt, but the godly [=righteous] show compassion [= gracious, merciful] and are generous.
Ps. 37:21

Then why are Deut. 22:22 and 4:2 written the way they are, and why does Jesus in Matthew 5:18 endorse them exactly as they're written? That endorsement doesn't allow for any mercy.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Wootah in post #34]

I think cutting off the hand of a thief is wrong.

If it were commanded in the Bible, would you still think it wrong?

If stealing doesn't warrant such a severe punishment, how does gathering sticks on the wrong day warrant a more severe punishment?

How does a death sentence for gathering sticks on the wrong day ever make sense?

Can you imagine a scenario in which the enemy is accommodating enough to threaten you only on a sabbath?

And we both understand how there are contexts where that makes sense and we both as reasonable debaters accept that this is one of those times and why it was highlighted in the Bible. It was not the norm.

In lieu of answering my questions, you're simply pretending that I agree with you.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #36]

I'm trying to make you rational enough to continue debating with.

Im not always debating with you but the puzzle. If there 8is a further aspect I haven't covered let me know and I'll reply.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #36]

I'm trying to make you rational enough to continue debating with.

Im not always debating with you but the puzzle. If there 8is a further aspect I haven't covered let me know and I'll reply.

The questions are still unanswered.

Are they part of the puzzle?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #36]

I'm trying to make you rational enough to continue debating with.

Im not always debating with you but the puzzle. If there 8is a further aspect I haven't covered let me know and I'll reply.

The questions are still unanswered.

Are they part of the puzzle?

If it [cutting of the hand of a thief] were commanded in the Bible, would you still think it wrong?

If stealing doesn't warrant such a severe punishment, how does gathering sticks on the wrong day warrant a more severe punishment?

How does a death sentence for gathering sticks on the wrong day ever make sense?

Can you imagine a scenario in which the enemy is accommodating enough to threaten you only on a sabbath?

To be clear, I meant that MY questions were still unanswered.

[1213]

....why does Jesus in Matthew 5:18 endorse them exactly as they're written? ...

Exactly as it is written includes everything that is actually written, also the parts you seem to want to ignore.