Where's the crime?

[Athetotheist]

While they were in the wilderness, the Israelites found a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. Then the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
(Numbers 15:32-35)

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath
(Mark 2:27)

Why would a deity who made a sabbath for man and not man for a sabbath command the execution of a man for gathering sticks on a sabbath?

[1213]

...Then why not keep to the biblical principle of "life for life" (Exodus 21:23) instead of life for gathering sticks?

In the Bible wage of sin is death. And the idea of death penalty is to "purge evil from among you", as said for example in Deut. 19:19. I don't think it was just about the sticks in that case.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
Romans 6:23

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #21]

In the Bible wage of sin is death. And the idea of death penalty is to "purge evil from among you", as said for example in Deut. 19:19. I don't think it was just about the sticks in that case.

Yet Jesus gets away with letting the adulteress off the hook in John 8. If he doesn't have to purge that evil from among them, why should a man have to die for gathering sticks on the wrong day?

If a sabbath is made for man and not man for a sabbath, how is a sabbath worth more than man's life?

[1213]

Yet Jesus gets away with letting the adulteress off the hook in John 8. If he doesn't have to purge that evil from among them, why should a man have to die for gathering sticks on the wrong day?

The woman repented, was sorry. And I think that shows she was not evil. In the case of the man, I believe he did not and was evil (unrighteous).

[Wootah]

While they were in the wilderness, the Israelites found a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. Then the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
(Numbers 15:32-35)

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath
(Mark 2:27)

Why would a deity who made a sabbath for man and not man for a sabbath command the execution of a man for gathering sticks on a sabbath?

I think the wilderness was a tough time of retraining for Israel. God wanted them dependent on Him, and not on their own strength and as we see in Judges and Kings and the rest, the lack of depending on God gets them in worse trouble.

I feel there is a movie called Defiance with Daniel Craig and the movie was set in Poland in WW2 (i think) and there was a scene where he killed someone for eating too much food or stealing food. The situation warranted the harshness of the penalty, not the 'crime' itself. I think that is similar here. Picking up sticks is not much of a crime, except they have been rescued from Egypt and God is leading them and the success or failure of their actions will change world history.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #23]

The woman repented, was sorry. And I think that shows she was not evil. In the case of the man, I believe he did not and was evil (unrighteous).

First----how do you know that the woman repented? The text doesn't tell us that she did.

Second----what makes you assume that the man was just evil? The text doesn't tell us that he was.

Third----if those who commit adultery can be forgiven if they repent, why isn't that established in Deuteronomy 22:22?

Fourth----since Deut. 22:22 makes no exception for repentence, how is Jesus not violating the law (Deut. 4:2) when he adds such an exception?

Fifth----if every jot and tittle of the law was still to be kept (Matthew 5:18), how is Jesus justified in violating Deut. 4:2?

Do you see the complications here?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Wootah in post #24]

I think the wilderness was a tough time of retraining for Israel. God wanted them dependent on Him, and not on their own strength and as we see in Judges and Kings and the rest, the lack of depending on God gets them in worse trouble.

I feel there is a movie called Defiance with Daniel Craig and the movie was set in Poland in WW2 (i think) and there was a scene where he killed someone for eating too much food or stealing food. The situation warranted the harshness of the penalty, not the 'crime' itself. I think that is similar here. Picking up sticks is not much of a crime, except they have been rescued from Egypt and God is leading them and the success or failure of their actions will change world history.

How does any of this matter if sabbaths were made for man and not man for sabbaths? If that's a worthy principle, the man gathering sticks would be the perfect instance for illustrating it----and it's not illustrated.

If violating a sabbath was so grievously improper in the wilderness, how would it be any less so for Jesus and his disciples to give up sabbath observance under direct Roman occupation?

In the text, Jehovah commands that the man be put to death. I assume that you believe Jesus would have passed the same sentence had he been on the scene and consulted on the matter.

How many pagan deities would you defend for taking the same position?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah in post #24]

I think the wilderness was a tough time of retraining for Israel. God wanted them dependent on Him, and not on their own strength and as we see in Judges and Kings and the rest, the lack of depending on God gets them in worse trouble.

I feel there is a movie called Defiance with Daniel Craig and the movie was set in Poland in WW2 (i think) and there was a scene where he killed someone for eating too much food or stealing food. The situation warranted the harshness of the penalty, not the 'crime' itself. I think that is similar here. Picking up sticks is not much of a crime, except they have been rescued from Egypt and God is leading them and the success or failure of their actions will change world history.

How does any of this matter if sabbaths were made for man and not man for sabbaths? If that's a worthy principle, the man gathering sticks would be the perfect instance for illustrating it----and it's not illustrated.

If violating a sabbath was so grievously improper in the wilderness, how would it be any less so for Jesus and his disciples to give up sabbath observance under direct Roman occupation?

In the text, Jehovah commands that the man be put to death. I assume that you believe Jesus would have passed the same sentence had he been on the scene and consulted on the matter.

How many pagan deities would you defend for taking the same position?

I think those are tough questions. We are not in that world. We are in a world where rape gangs roam Europe and don't go to prison but get citizenship and more mosques, where humans are murdered in the womb, whereas a few hundred years ago, we would execute people for stealing a loaf of bread. Our sense of justice is skewed. We are in the dark without the light.

How many pagan deities would you defend for taking the same position?

Another tough question. For instance, I think cutting off the hand of a thief is wrong. I would suggest that what God did here was not prescriptive; it was trying to rescue his people to rely on Him. The rule that makes sense in war or difficulty is not the same rule in other times.

A lot of the Bible is wisdom; the same action can be wise at time X and not wise at time Y. I am hopefully giving you a way to see the action in a wider scope.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Wootah in post #27]

We are not in that world. We are in a world where rape gangs roam Europe and don't go to prison but get citizenship and more mosques, where humans are murdered in the womb, whereas a few hundred years ago, we would execute people for stealing a loaf of bread. Our sense of justice is skewed. We are in the dark without the light.

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Now go and kill all the young males and every non-virgin woman.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
(Numbers 31:17-18)

Is that something you'd be more comfortable defending?

I think cutting off the hand of a thief is wrong.

If it were commanded in the Bible, would you still think it wrong?

If stealing doesn't warrant such a severe punishment, how does gathering sticks on the wrong day warrant a more severe punishment?

I would suggest that what God did here was not prescriptive; it was trying to rescue his people to rely on Him.

....to do what? Have them put to death for gathering sticks on the wrong day instead of a less severe punishment?

The rule that makes sense in war or difficulty is not the same rule in other times.

How does a death sentence for gathering sticks on the wrong day ever make sense?

A lot of the Bible is wisdom; the same action can be wise at time X and not wise at time Y. I am hopefully giving you a way to see the action in a wider scope.

As I see it, you're hoping to justify the execution of a man for gathering sticks on the wrong day because it happens to have been commanded in the Bible.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #28]

How does a death sentence for gathering sticks on the wrong day ever make sense?

I think if you strong man the opposition argument you can get there.

For instance, if I pretend to be you: OK, so I could imagine a scenario where we are hiding from the enemy, and one of us goes out and collects sticks and risks the whole population getting caught and as a punishment we put them to death. Is that what you are saying Wootah?

You can make it make sense if you are willing to reason both sides.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Wootah in post #29]

I could imagine a scenario where we are hiding from the enemy, and one of us goes out and collects sticks and risks the whole population getting caught and as a punishment we put them to death.

Can you imagine a scenario in which the enemy is accommodating enough to threaten you only on a sabbath?

The text has the man being executed for gathering sticks on a sabbath. No enemy has anything to do with it.