I had an ephinany in church today. I believe I have decided for myself who's side God is on.
But I wanted to throw this out into the water and see where it goes for a bit first.
So the question for debate is this. . .
Who's side is God on? What makes you believe that this is true?
Who's side is God on?
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achilles12604
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Who's side is God on?
Post #1It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.
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achilles12604
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Re: Who's side is God on?
Post #31Hmm . . . Suffering in the world. What a simple and straightforward topic you allude to.Confused wrote:Considering the amount of suffering, poverty, crime, genocide, pestilence, disease, wars, starvation, subjugation, rapes, molestations, etc.... that currently exist globally, I really have to wonder which side He is on as well. If I had to judge it based on humanity, I would have to say that God is on the side of those who would cause harm because He sure isn't providing much protection to those who are trying to do good. But this is strictly MHO.achilles12604 wrote:I had an ephinany in church today. I believe I have decided for myself who's side God is on.
But I wanted to throw this out into the water and see where it goes for a bit first.
So the question for debate is this. . .
Who's side is God on? What makes you believe that this is true?
This gives me an idea for a new thread.
It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.
Re: Who's side is God on?
Post #32I so hate it when that happensachilles12604 wrote:Hmm . . . Suffering in the world. What a simple and straightforward topic you allude to.Confused wrote:Considering the amount of suffering, poverty, crime, genocide, pestilence, disease, wars, starvation, subjugation, rapes, molestations, etc.... that currently exist globally, I really have to wonder which side He is on as well. If I had to judge it based on humanity, I would have to say that God is on the side of those who would cause harm because He sure isn't providing much protection to those who are trying to do good. But this is strictly MHO.achilles12604 wrote:I had an ephinany in church today. I believe I have decided for myself who's side God is on.
But I wanted to throw this out into the water and see where it goes for a bit first.
So the question for debate is this. . .
Who's side is God on? What makes you believe that this is true?
This gives me an idea for a new thread.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
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achilles12604
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 3697
- Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:37 am
- Location: Colorado
Re: Who's side is God on?
Post #33\Confused wrote:I so hate it when that happensachilles12604 wrote:Hmm . . . Suffering in the world. What a simple and straightforward topic you allude to.Confused wrote:Considering the amount of suffering, poverty, crime, genocide, pestilence, disease, wars, starvation, subjugation, rapes, molestations, etc.... that currently exist globally, I really have to wonder which side He is on as well. If I had to judge it based on humanity, I would have to say that God is on the side of those who would cause harm because He sure isn't providing much protection to those who are trying to do good. But this is strictly MHO.achilles12604 wrote:I had an ephinany in church today. I believe I have decided for myself who's side God is on.
But I wanted to throw this out into the water and see where it goes for a bit first.
So the question for debate is this. . .
Who's side is God on? What makes you believe that this is true?
This gives me an idea for a new thread.
Right Here. Feel free to jump right in.
It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.
Post #34
Confused wrote:
God is love. Love doesn't hurt, sin hurts. The consequences of sin hurts not only oneself who is involved in it, but also those around and associated with the offender. God is not Santa on a cloud preventing people from being injured by sinners, rather He has offered His forgiveness and instruction to those who do not know Him. Freewill was granted in the beginning and it is still very much in play today. A freewill choice is required by the individual. The more individuals choosing God, the better for mankind and society.
"Therefore, go and make desciples...." Get wisdom and love so that you can enjoy sharing it with those around you! Make the world a better place. Isn't that what we Christians are called to do? "....And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." See? God is on the side of His faithful....
rusty
Wow! This is something that needs a good response! The suffering in the world is caused by sin and sinful evil people. How about teaching ignorant selfish sinful people about a God who desires love and righteousness in the community. If they accepted this teaching and gave up raping, thieving, murdering, etc., and taught their children to not rape, thieve, and murder, etc., there would obviously be less raping, thieving, murdering, etc.Considering the amount of suffering, poverty, crime, genocide, pestilence, disease, wars, starvation, subjugation, rapes, molestations, etc.... that currently exist globally, I really have to wonder which side He is on as well. If I had to judge it based on humanity, I would have to say that God is on the side of those who would cause harm because He sure isn't providing much protection to those who are trying to do good. But this is strictly MHO.
God is love. Love doesn't hurt, sin hurts. The consequences of sin hurts not only oneself who is involved in it, but also those around and associated with the offender. God is not Santa on a cloud preventing people from being injured by sinners, rather He has offered His forgiveness and instruction to those who do not know Him. Freewill was granted in the beginning and it is still very much in play today. A freewill choice is required by the individual. The more individuals choosing God, the better for mankind and society.
"Therefore, go and make desciples...." Get wisdom and love so that you can enjoy sharing it with those around you! Make the world a better place. Isn't that what we Christians are called to do? "....And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." See? God is on the side of His faithful....
rusty
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Zzyzx
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Post #35
.
Does anyone actually believe that being religious prevents a person from performing anti-social or illegal acts?
Love doesn't hurt, sin hurts. The consequences of sin hurts not only oneself who is involved in it, but also those around and associated with the offender. [/quote]
Love and sin cannot be shown to “hurt”. ACTIONS hurt. “Sin” is a religious concept that is not binding upon those who do not accept religion. Different religions propose different “sins”.
Yes, it does need a good response, one that actually works in the real world.rusty wrote:Wow! This is something that needs a good response!Confused wrote:Considering the amount of suffering, poverty, crime, genocide, pestilence, disease, wars, starvation, subjugation, rapes, molestations, etc.... that currently exist globally, I really have to wonder which side He is on as well. If I had to judge it based on humanity, I would have to say that God is on the side of those who would cause harm because He sure isn't providing much protection to those who are trying to do good. But this is strictly MHO.
This is pure opinion. It cannot be substantiated with valid evidence and research.rusty wrote:The suffering in the world is caused by sin and sinful evil people.
Can anyone cite evidence to show that knowledge of gods reduces anti-social (or criminal) behavior?rusty wrote:[How about teaching ignorant selfish sinful people about a God who desires love and righteousness in the community.
If “they gave up raping, thieving, murdering, etc” for ANY reason there would be less. There is no assurance that teaching about religion would accomplish the objective.rusty wrote:If they accepted this teaching and gave up raping, thieving, murdering, etc., and taught their children to not rape, thieve, and murder, etc., there would obviously be less raping, thieving, murdering, etc.
Does anyone actually believe that being religious prevents a person from performing anti-social or illegal acts?
Some people accept this notion. Others do not. Which of the thousands of gods available “is love”? Which are “not love”?rusty wrote:God is love.
Love doesn't hurt, sin hurts. The consequences of sin hurts not only oneself who is involved in it, but also those around and associated with the offender. [/quote]
Love and sin cannot be shown to “hurt”. ACTIONS hurt. “Sin” is a religious concept that is not binding upon those who do not accept religion. Different religions propose different “sins”.
Kindly cite evidence to support this claim (as per forum rule #9).rusty wrote:God is not Santa on a cloud preventing people from being injured by sinners, rather He has offered His forgiveness and instruction to those who do not know Him. Freewill was granted in the beginning and it is still very much in play today. A freewill choice is required by the individual. The more individuals choosing God, the better for mankind and society.
Quoting the bible to Non-Christians is no more convincing than quoting the Koran to Christians. Attempting to preach to the choir is not effective in debate.rusty wrote:[“Therefore, go and make desciples...." Get wisdom and love so that you can enjoy sharing it with those around you! Make the world a better place. Isn't that what we Christians are called to do? “...And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." See? God is on the side of His faithful....
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Post #36
Isn't this impossible. Is it not decreed that mans nature is inherently sinful? And guess what, not all the suffering in the world is caused by sinful nature. Tell me, what sin caused my leukemia? My sons autism? Any number of illnesses that have nothing to do with sin cause suffering. Perhaps my view of suffering is a bit broader than what you are implying here.rusty wrote:Confused wrote:Wow! This is something that needs a good response! The suffering in the world is caused by sin and sinful evil people. How about teaching ignorant selfish sinful people about a God who desires love and righteousness in the community. If they accepted this teaching and gave up raping, thieving, murdering, etc., and taught their children to not rape, thieve, and murder, etc., there would obviously be less raping, thieving, murdering, etc.Considering the amount of suffering, poverty, crime, genocide, pestilence, disease, wars, starvation, subjugation, rapes, molestations, etc.... that currently exist globally, I really have to wonder which side He is on as well. If I had to judge it based on humanity, I would have to say that God is on the side of those who would cause harm because He sure isn't providing much protection to those who are trying to do good. But this is strictly MHO.
So, when the person you love dies, does it not hurt you?rusty wrote:God is love. Love doesn't hurt, sin hurts.
Yes, sin hurts either oneself, another, or both. But not all hurt is caused by sin.rusty wrote:The consequences of sin hurts not only oneself who is involved in it, but also those around and associated with the offender.
I am thinking that perhaps you misjudged my post and got tunnel vision. Did you even see past the possible causes of man to see that what is listed can also be caused by nature?rusty wrote:God is not Santa on a cloud preventing people from being injured by sinners, rather He has offered His forgiveness and instruction to those who do not know Him.
Sure, those who suffer from terminal diseases used their free will to get them, right? Those who suffer from genetic diseases/disorders used their free will to influence their genetic sequences in the womb.rusty wrote: Freewill was granted in the beginning and it is still very much in play today. A freewill choice is required by the individual. The more individuals choosing God, the better for mankind and society.
You enthusiasm is encouraging. But God isn't always the answer. He gave man a brain and expects us to use it. Not everything in this world is relevant to God or religion.rusty wrote:"Therefore, go and make desciples...." Get wisdom and love so that you can enjoy sharing it with those around you! Make the world a better place. Isn't that what we Christians are called to do? "....And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." See? God is on the side of His faithful....
rusty
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
Post #37
Zzyzx wrote:
"...valid evidence and research?" I'm sorry Z, but I'm reminded of speaking to a prekindergarten child. "Why is the wall blue?" Because someone painted it blue. "Why did someone paint it blue." Because someone liked blue walls. "Why did he like blue walls?" Maybe blue was his favorite color. "Why is blue his favorite color?" Because......
Common sense evalution in the form of math, how about it? Reasoning, deduction, expectations based on rational thoughts and concepts proven to be valid. All things useful for thinking inteligently. Works for me!
Choose God. Choose life.
rusty
Sin, as defined by the Ten Commandments, includes raping, thieving, and murdering. That and other "actions" falling under God's definition of sin OBVIOUSLY create suffering in the world. Sin is also defined as "missing the mark of God's righteousness, holiness, goodness, and love. Unrighteousness, unholiness, badness, and hate cause a lot of suffering, too. OBVIOUSLY!!rusty wrote:
The suffering in the world is caused by sin and sinful evil people.
This is pure opinion. It cannot be substantiated with valid evidence and research.
"...valid evidence and research?" I'm sorry Z, but I'm reminded of speaking to a prekindergarten child. "Why is the wall blue?" Because someone painted it blue. "Why did someone paint it blue." Because someone liked blue walls. "Why did he like blue walls?" Maybe blue was his favorite color. "Why is blue his favorite color?" Because......
1 + 2 = 3, a + b = c a = God (righteousness, goodness, and love) b = an individual's choice to love God c = less anti-social and illegal actsrusty wrote:.[How about teaching ignorant selfish sinful people about a God who desires love and righteousness in the community
Can anyone cite evidence to show that knowledge of gods reduces anti-social (or criminal) behavior?
rusty wrote:If “they gave up raping, thieving, murdering, etc” for ANY reason there would be less. There is no assurance that teaching about religion would accomplish the objective.If they accepted this teaching and gave up raping, thieving, murdering, etc., and taught their children to not rape, thieve, and murder, etc., there would obviously be less raping, thieving, murdering, etc.
Does anyone actually believe that being religious prevents a person from performing anti-social or illegal acts?
Common sense evalution in the form of math, how about it? Reasoning, deduction, expectations based on rational thoughts and concepts proven to be valid. All things useful for thinking inteligently. Works for me!
I have not wasted a LOT of time researching other gods and religions, but I don't know of any other religion that makes the claim, "God is love." I don't know much about other religion's "sins," if there are any in other religions. You may enlighten me, if you wish.rusty wrote:
God is love.
Some people accept this notion. Others do not. Which of the thousands of gods available “is love”? Which are “not love”?
Pretty vague, Z. Some "ACTIONS" don't hurt. Some are downright GOOD! Sinful actions hurt. Loving actions are good and don't hurt. Simple, simple, simple. Why complicate things?rusty wrote:Love and sin cannot be shown to “hurt”. ACTIONS hurt. “Sin” is a religious concept that is not binding upon those who do not accept religion. Different religions propose different “sins”.Love doesn't hurt, sin hurts. The consequences of sin hurts not only oneself who is involved in it, but also those around and associated with the offender.
1 + 2 = 3......Kindly cite evidence to support this claim (as per forum rule #9).rusty wrote:
God is not Santa on a cloud preventing people from being injured by sinners, rather He has offered His forgiveness and instruction to those who do not know Him. Freewill was granted in the beginning and it is still very much in play today. A freewill choice is required by the individual. The more individuals choosing God, the better for mankind and society.
Choose God. Choose life.
Seems to me any debate on Christianity OUGHT to contain some scripture. What's the matter, Z. Are you unable to argue against scripture? Science is not a complete enough tool to obliterate scripture? What's up?Quoting the bible to Non-Christians is no more convincing than quoting the Koran to Christians. Attempting to preach to the choir is not effective in debate.rusty wrote:
“Therefore, go and make desciples...." Get wisdom and love so that you can enjoy sharing it with those around you! Make the world a better place. Isn't that what we Christians are called to do? “...And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." See? God is on the side of His faithful....
rusty
Post #38
Can we tone down the testosterone here? Antagonizing isn't necessary.rusty wrote: Seems to me any debate on Christianity OUGHT to contain some scripture. What's the matter, Z. Are you unable to argue against scripture? Science is not a complete enough tool to obliterate scripture? What's up?
rusty
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
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Zzyzx
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Post #39
.
I maintain that religionists cannot support theories of invisible super beings and magic tricks with anything that resembles common sense, reasoning, or evidence. I submit the following as evidence.
I do not wish to “enlighten” you. My only purpose in replying to posts such as this is to emphasize for readers the great contrast between what is said by a self-appointed representative of religion vs. common sense, reasoning and real world experience.
I maintain that religionists cannot support theories of invisible super beings and magic tricks with anything that resembles common sense, reasoning, or evidence. I submit the following as evidence.
Thank you for the demonstration of “religious reasoning”.rusty wrote:1 + 2 = 3, a + b = c a = God (righteousness, goodness, and love) b = an individual's choice to love God c = less anti-social and illegal actsZzyzx wrote:Does anyone actually believe that being religious prevents a person from performing anti-social or illegal acts?
Common sense evalution in the form of math, how about it? Reasoning, deduction, expectations based on rational thoughts and concepts proven to be valid. All things useful for thinking inteligently. Works for me!
I realize that you have not “wasted a LOT of time researching other gods and religions”. How, then, can you conclude that they are false and your choice is true? Is it a “waste of time” to learn about alternative theories to the ones you support? Should a person study only their own propaganda?rusty wrote:I have not wasted a LOT of time researching other gods and religions, but I don't know of any other religion that makes the claim, "God is love." I don't know much about other religion's "sins," if there are any in other religions. You may enlighten me, if you wish.Zzyzx wrote:Some people accept this notion. Others do not. Which of the thousands of gods available “is love”? Which are “not love”?rusty wrote:God is love.
I do not wish to “enlighten” you. My only purpose in replying to posts such as this is to emphasize for readers the great contrast between what is said by a self-appointed representative of religion vs. common sense, reasoning and real world experience.
Are you offering this as support of your claims? Is this a compelling argument in religious discourse?rusty wrote:1 + 2 = 3......Zzyzx wrote:Kindly cite evidence to support this claim (as per forum rule #9).rusty wrote:God is not Santa on a cloud preventing people from being injured by sinners, rather He has offered His forgiveness and instruction to those who do not know Him. Freewill was granted in the beginning and it is still very much in play today. A freewill choice is required by the individual. The more individuals choosing God, the better for mankind and society.
Choose God. Choose life.
Are you asking me to quote a book that you KNOW I reject as fable, fiction or fraud? Why would I quote something that I regard as invalid?rusty wrote:Seems to me any debate on Christianity OUGHT to contain some scripture. What's the matter, Z. Are you unable to argue against scripture? Science is not a complete enough tool to obliterate scripture? What's up?Zzyzx wrote:Quoting the bible to Non-Christians is no more convincing than quoting the Koran to Christians. Attempting to preach to the choir is not effective in debate.
rusty
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Post #40
confused wrote:
Now, you have hit a nerve with me. If I were Jesus and you loved me and my Father who sent me, I would heal you and your son. I would tell you to "Go, and sin no more." I would ask you to hunger and thirst for righteousness and seek understanding of the wisdom of God. I would ask you to fill your heart with the truth so that you may know my Father. I would ask you to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your strength and with all your mind. Having done that, a healing would be a wonderful testimony for the goodness of God.
But I am not Jesus. I have not yet attained perfect righteousness. I am sorry for your illness and I wish I could help you, but sick or not you can still love God and seek His righteousness and wisdom. Where else can you turn?---- I had nowhere else to turn when my sons were taken from me on the whim of an unfaithful wife. My grief broke my heart to the core. I turned to God and still did not get to raise my sons. They grew up in shack up environments with their mother tending bar. My sons did not learn about a wholesome family and I wonder if they will be able to have one of their own. With God in their lives, it is possible. I hope I can be a good, God loving example for them. They do need to overcome the mess that they grew up with, though.
I do not know and do not wish to know all the mistakes you have made in your life, but the Holy Spirit convicted me of every mistake I made in mine. I humbled myself and accepted the Holy Spirit's conviction. I am still often convicted of my weaknesses and mistakes, but I do the best I can. I wish I had more friends willing to open the Bible with me, but my convictions are strong and my no-nonsense demeanor scares many people off when the Bible is opened. I can laugh and enjoy good company with a few beers, but Bible talk seems to give good company a desire to leave. Note: my friends don't read and don't know the Bible. Unfortunately, many in church don't either. Perhaps it is the natural tendancy of man to duck the conviction of the Holy Spirit until they have earnestly asked Him into thier heart.
Anyway, my heart goes out to you. I would love to help you and your son. If you hunger and thirst for truth and you are open to my perspective, please use the private message. Why not try the truth? I did. Now, I am watching to see what happens as I try to serve the Lord. Of course, if you already know the truth, I can't help you.
rusty
It is not impossible. Man is born into sin and unwashed, unsaved, unrepentant man has a very sinful nature. But, love for God helps man leave that sinful nature behind. It is not impossible. Fallen man is born into an imperfect world, and fallen man contributes to that imperfection.Isn't this impossible. Is it not decreed that mans nature is inherently sinful? And guess what, not all the suffering in the world is caused by sinful nature. Tell me, what sin caused my leukemia? My sons autism? Any number of illnesses that have nothing to do with sin cause suffering. Perhaps my view of suffering is a bit broader than what you are implying here.
Now, you have hit a nerve with me. If I were Jesus and you loved me and my Father who sent me, I would heal you and your son. I would tell you to "Go, and sin no more." I would ask you to hunger and thirst for righteousness and seek understanding of the wisdom of God. I would ask you to fill your heart with the truth so that you may know my Father. I would ask you to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your strength and with all your mind. Having done that, a healing would be a wonderful testimony for the goodness of God.
But I am not Jesus. I have not yet attained perfect righteousness. I am sorry for your illness and I wish I could help you, but sick or not you can still love God and seek His righteousness and wisdom. Where else can you turn?---- I had nowhere else to turn when my sons were taken from me on the whim of an unfaithful wife. My grief broke my heart to the core. I turned to God and still did not get to raise my sons. They grew up in shack up environments with their mother tending bar. My sons did not learn about a wholesome family and I wonder if they will be able to have one of their own. With God in their lives, it is possible. I hope I can be a good, God loving example for them. They do need to overcome the mess that they grew up with, though.
I do not know and do not wish to know all the mistakes you have made in your life, but the Holy Spirit convicted me of every mistake I made in mine. I humbled myself and accepted the Holy Spirit's conviction. I am still often convicted of my weaknesses and mistakes, but I do the best I can. I wish I had more friends willing to open the Bible with me, but my convictions are strong and my no-nonsense demeanor scares many people off when the Bible is opened. I can laugh and enjoy good company with a few beers, but Bible talk seems to give good company a desire to leave. Note: my friends don't read and don't know the Bible. Unfortunately, many in church don't either. Perhaps it is the natural tendancy of man to duck the conviction of the Holy Spirit until they have earnestly asked Him into thier heart.
Anyway, my heart goes out to you. I would love to help you and your son. If you hunger and thirst for truth and you are open to my perspective, please use the private message. Why not try the truth? I did. Now, I am watching to see what happens as I try to serve the Lord. Of course, if you already know the truth, I can't help you.
rusty
