Are there any prophecies in the Bible?

[notachance]

It seems to me that the go-to "proof" that the Bible is divinely inspired are prophecies.

So I was hoping that somebody would give me an example of a prophecy that might prove the supernatural nature of the Bible.

I will write below a few criteria that I think any alleged prophecy must meet in order to qualify as "evidence of supernatural nature of the Bible"

1) The prophecy must have been demonstrably written down before the event it predicts.
A prophecy is a statement about the future, not about the past.

For example, if I wrote today, in 2011, "I hereby make the prophecy that in 2008, Barack Obama will be elected President of the United States", that is NOT a prophecy, because I'm "predicting" an event that actually already happened.

Similarly, if a 350 AD manuscript (for example the Codex Sinaiticus) talked about some battle that took place in 600BC, that wouldn't be a prediction, it would be a description of something that happened almost 1000 years earlier.

2) A prophecy must have demonstrably actually been made
An example of scenario that would NOT count as a valid prophecy would one where I write down today "10 years before he died, John Lennon told an anonymous author that he would die by being shot in the head". There is no way of verifying that John Lennon ever said that, so it's not a valid prophecy.

3) A predicted event must be reliably documented.
For example, if I said "I predict that tonight I will dream about eating ice cream" and then the next day I say "The prophecy came true! I did dream about ice cream", that would not be an accurate prophecy because it was not reliably documented. Nobody other than me knows if it's actually true that I dreamed about ice-cream.

4) A prophecy must be specific enough that it cannot be adaptable to multiple scenarios that are somewhat likely to happen eventually.
For example if I wrote "There will be a war between Christians and Muslims in the next 100 years", then I'm not making a supernatural prophecy, just an educated guess given the nature of our international relations. In order for it to even be considered as a prophecy, it would have to be something like "On March 2nd 2076, the United States will begin a campaign of drone attacks in Iran, starting with a 3:30 am raid on a military base 20 miles north of Tehran".

Another example of what would not be a prophecy would be something like "the twin towers that collapsed on 9-11 will eventually be rebuilt"

5) In order for a prophecy to be considered proof of the supernatural nature of the Bible, there has to be no other reasonable way to explaining it than by supernatural means.
If you cannot prove that purely natural explanations (chance? self-fulfilling prophecy, forgery) truly cannot account for the prophecy, then your belief in the supernatural cause of the prophecy is no more than a faith statement, and if you are using that do justify your faith, you're engaging in circular logic ("I believe in this baseless claim, because it's supported by another baseless claim").

6) An accurate prophecy cannot be considered evidence of the supernatural if it is surrounded by inaccurate prophecies.
For example if I wrote today the following statements:
"Obama will be elected in 2012"
"Pawlenty will be elected in 2012"
"Romney will be elected in 2012"
"Palin will be elected in 2012"
"Gingrich will be elected in 2012"

And one of them turned out to be correct, that would prove nothing!

7) A prophecy can only be considered evidence of the supernatural if it predicts something that is extremely unlikely.
For example this chart shows that over the last 117 years, in Seattle it has rained on August 2nd 13 times. That means that there is 11.1% chance that it will rain in Seattle on August 2nd of any given year. So if I wrote the prophecy that "On Aug 2nd 2154 it will rain in Seattle", that would be an accurate prediction, but nonetheless not evidence of supernatural powers, simply evidence of the statistical fact that I had a 11.1% chance to be right.

8) The prophecy cannot be an expression of something that many people want to see happen, because the people's will is what drives the prophecy to be fulfilled in that case, and not a supernatural power.
For example, if Martin Luther King had said "I predict that one day a black man will be US President", that would not be the kind of prediction that would prove the supernatural, because in saying that, MLK would just be verbalizing a wish that was to some degree shared by millions of blacks and whites alike. It was simple social pressure from these millions that eventually caused the prophecy to be "fulfilled". If Hillary Clinton said "One day a woman will be President" she will, by saying it, inspire people to try to make that happen. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.


It's almost 3am and I am a little tired. I may have to add additional bullet points later. It may also be that there is some redundancy, and that the list could be condensed while retaining it's purpose. But I think this is a good start.

Here are my two questions:

1) Do you agree that the requirements above are reasonable, if not explain why not

2) Can you think of any Bible prophecy that meets the requirements above?

(please don't link or quote 100 different prophecies, and don't then leave it to me to look them all up and debunk them all. Start by quoting the SINGLE MOST CONCLUSIVE example of a prophecy, and we can talk about that. Once we've debated it, we can move on to additional examples)

[Goat]

I'm not too keen on the term 'supernatural' at all honestly. I think that supposing the existence of God, there is no reason to believe that God isn't natural, that prophecies aren't natural or that miracles aren't natural. Conventional use of the term "supernatural" is as a catch all to describe aspects of creation that people don't understand like miracles, telepathy, ghosts, dragons, faeries, voodoo, etc...

I was under the impression that you wanted to debate whether any of the prophets in the Bible had genuine foreknowledge, but it seems you agree that Amos had divine foreknowledge of the future and merely wish to equivocate about whether his foreknowledge of future events was 'natural' or not.

So, I'll tell you what, we shall use the definition of supernatural prophecy that you already provided, with the exception of the 8th point which I dispute:

A supernatural prophecy we shall define as

A prophecy that:

1) must have been demonstrably written down before the event it predicts.
2) must have demonstrably actually been made
3) A predicted event must be reliably documented.
4) must be specific enough that it cannot be adaptable to multiple scenarios that are likely to happen eventually.
5) has to be no other reasonable way to explaining it than by supernatural means.
6) cannot be surrounded by inaccurate prophecies that conflict with the accurate prophecy.
7) can only be considered evidence of the supernatural if it predicts something that is extremely unlikely.

Sound fair?

Now, if you will kindly address whether you think an evolutionist should have the burden to disprove every alternate theory about the variety of species, such as God creating a bunch of animals and putting fossils in the ground to test your faith, aliens bringing a bunch of animals they created over in spaceships, animals being expelled from the FSM's nose when it sneezed etc...

And, can not be 'self fullfilling', in other words, it is made, so people work towards accomplishing it.

[riverslivnwtr]

Praise Allah the Merciful! You are absolutely right, Christianity breeds hatred, confusion, chaos. That's because, as the Holy Prophet clearly says, Jesus is the Son of Satan. Thank you for providing this crushing indisputable proof that Christianity is Satanic.

I just have one question for you: Why do you hate God? He created you. He is your father. Why do you hate him?

Why do you worship Satan and His Son Jesus? Why?

Quran knowledge fail. Jesus, may peace be upon Him, is not considered the son of Satan in Islam. He is regarded as the messiah in Islam just as in Christianity and is esteemed as a great prophet who foretold the coming of Mohammed.

And where in the Bible did he say such a thing about the coming of Muhammad??.

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" ", Qur'an 61:6

number two..Why is the death penalty given in Mauritania to those Muslims who convert to Christianity?

For the same reasons that Christians tortured and killed Muslims during the crusades and inquisition. It is what I affectionately call 'the human condition.'

so you are saying that those are not Muslims in Muaritania, is that right? because I am saying that they are not Christians in the Crusades nor the inqusitions.. Jesus said many false prophets and false Christs shall arise and deceive many..


Here is what Jesus said to his disciples and followers..."be ye wise as serpents and harmless as doves" Now the first century Christians certainly had no hatred for the Jews they being Jews themselves they never took up arms against the Jews but rather abandoned Israel for the whole world.....the subsequent Christians were interested in keeping their heads upon their shoulders for as long as possible..knowing that many of them would be killed for the gospel of Christ as the apostles told them..They are the first-fruits of Christianity , there is no violence in them..other people in the empire came to take up Christianity and over the centuries were never converted to Christ , but were born into the state and church dominated culture ...so the crusades were not christian. and neither the inquisitions..they are false Christs all of them...and they are the ones who planted the seeds of the Holocaust....

violence is no characteristic of Christianity... Christians do not kill.

[riverslivnwtr]

I'v e only heared of one such ...and you know how these people use that ganga

no it is not in their testimony..it's all religious rules and stuff like that..

hey it's a lot of Christians like that....maybe that's why muslims came to be in the first place...Christians in the 7th century unable to deliver..perhaps because so many had been killed by the Roman empire God just gave them blood to drink...as he promised in the book of Revelation..

You are blinded by your sin and by the influence of the devil. If you approached the Koran with an open mind and an open heart, you'd find that it is the true word of God. You can't see it because you're full of hate and tribulation, and because Satan has corrupted you with all his false talk about his son Jesus.

(Moderators. Is it ok that I continue this line of argument? I'm assuming that you understand where I'm going with this. If it's not cool, let me know)

well as the bible says, who is blind as my servant? of deaf, as my messenger that i sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the lords servant?
seeing many things and seeing not and hearing many things and hearing not..
The lord is well pleased for his righteousness sake he will magnify the law and make it honourable..

Yada yada yada. Here is the only thing that is definitely 100% true and nobody can deny. You worship the devil. That's why you fail to see that Allah is the One True God and Mohammed is His Prophet.

You hate God, and that's why you worship Satan.

Also, you worship Satan because by doing that you can continue sinning without being answerable to anybody. And probably you had some bad experience with Islam when you were a child, and that's why you can't find it in you to love the One True God, Allah the Merciful.

That's it. This truth appeared to me in a personal revelation that was very very powerful, therefore it cannot be disputed. It's true. You worship Satan.

Praise Allah.

but Jesus said, that those who come to him would be at war with there own families..A father against his son; a mother against family and so on...incidently there is another prediction made by Jesus how division over him would divide...and this is found everywhere Christianity is ...

Praise Allah the Merciful! You are absolutely right, Christianity breeds hatred, confusion, chaos. That's because, as the Holy Prophet clearly says, Jesus is the Son of Satan. Thank you for providing this crushing indisputable proof that Christianity is Satanic.

I just have one question for you: Why do you hate God? He created you. He is your father. Why do you hate him?

Why do you worship Satan and His Son Jesus? Why?

It seems you have strayed away from your original concept about biblical prophecies which I have richly provided you with fulfilled prophecy and of course you are covering up your failure to properly dispute it..
How did Islam enter into this thread..I was talking about Daniel chp 2 ??

you accuse me with being blind..and I say that's not a bad thing with my response ..the bible blesses those with a single mind...Islam is another story..I don't wish to argue it with you ..

Those who worship Satan are quick to hide in shame when discovered. No wonder you don't want to talk about it. Go back to your dark basement and enjoy your satanic rituals. Praise Allah.

are you giving up on Daniel Chapter two which clearly defines Jesus conquering the Roman Empire.. with his resurrection and Christianity consuming the whole thing..eventually all the earth???

That text was written in 350 AD when Christianity had ALREADY conquered the roman empire. How is it a mystery that someone would write down that which already happened?

Please strop trying to change the subject. You have to repent for having engaged in the satanic ritual of prayer to Jesus or you will burn in hell for all eternity.

PRaise Allah!

The book of Daniel was written when Israel was occupied by the Babylonians...
The Book of Daniel is Hebrew not Christian..
in 300 ad. the Christians didn't have sense enough to even know what was in Daniel and certainly couldn't write something as complicated as Daniel . You assume that they could read...very few could my friend they were sheep , and as dumb as a bag of hammers just like today..

Really you give them way too much credit..

[riverslivnwtr]

And where in the Bible did he say such a thing about the coming of Muhammad??.

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" ", Qur'an 61:6

Uh.. that is a quote from the Quran, which was written down after Mohammed died. That is not a prophecy, but an after the fact story.

Oh! Do prophecies have to be written before the event they predict?

You might think it's a joke, but for the last few weeks I've been debating against the notion that a book written in 350 AD contains prophecies about event in 400 BC.

You'd think that it's self evident that the prophecy needs to certifiably precede the event it predicts. I made that the first criterion to identify a prophecy in my OP. And yet the most frequent point of contention on this thread relates to the assertion by theists that a prophecy can be written down centuries after the event in question, and still constitute evidence of the ability to predict the future.

I hope you're not talking about the book of Daniel I just debunked that notion real good...you seem to be under the misconception that the whole bible was written by Christians...the fact is the entire Torah was written by Hebrews ...Jews

almost all the new testament written by Jews ..Luke and mark may be the only non Jews to write..anything..in the book..

[Paradigm]

Hey man. I'm going to put replying to all points you made on the back burner, and focus exclusively on trying to figure out with the mathematical calculation you exposed.

I was unaware of it, and must admit I'm seriously puzzled by it.

Gimme a day or so to check it out and gather my thought.

Good job though, man. You're a killer debater. G'nite for now.

Thanks! You're not so bad yourself. In fact, I only engaged in this debate because I thought your OP presented a worthy challenge. I don't actually believe in any of this prophecy nonsense.

[notachance]

I don't actually believe in any of this prophecy nonsense.

Lol, no wonder! I was puzzled all along by the awesomely cogent delivery of absurdly flawed concepts!

That explains it. You're a smart guy arguing for something you know is flawed, and playing hide and go seek with logic.

lol

Ok, I put some thought into your last post. Everything you said is brilliant but essentially flawed. Do you even need me to address the flaws, or have you had enough of the game?

Personally I'd rather debate you on something you actually believe, rather than having mock battles on a subject where one side is pretending to believe something he knows is wrong, and the other gets frustrated peeling through the layers of clever wordings of absurd concepts...

Up to you, I will respond to the last post if you want me to, including the ridiculous notion that if it's statistically possible to win the lottery then Yahweh exists but Allah doesn't

[Paradigm]

I don't actually believe in any of this prophecy nonsense.

Lol, no wonder! I was puzzled all along by the awesomely cogent delivery of absurdly flawed concepts!

That explains it. You're a smart guy arguing for something you know is flawed, and playing hide and go seek with logic.

lol

Ok, I put some thought into your last post. Everything you said is brilliant but essentially flawed. Do you even need me to address the flaws, or have you had enough of the game?

I probably shouldn't have revealed my anti-prophecy colours until after I was done with the game. Oh well.

Personally I'd rather debate you on something you actually believe, rather than having mock battles on a subject where one side is pretending to believe something he knows is wrong, and the other gets frustrated peeling through the layers of clever wordings of absurd concepts...

Up to you, I will respond to the last post if you want me to, including the ridiculous notion that if it's statistically possible to win the lottery then Yahweh exists but Allah doesn't

Fortunately, you can have your wish, and I can continue my game at the same time. You see, I genuinely believe that you have not satisfactorily debunked the Amos and Ezekiel prophecies. If all I had to go on was the information currently posted, I would be leaning towards belief in prophecy.

My disbelief in prophecy follows an entirely different line of reasoning, and I am curious if your line of reasoning will also be able to thwart it. I can honestly say that so far I don't think it has, so it seems to me that there is still plenty to debate.

[notachance]

I don't actually believe in any of this prophecy nonsense.

Lol, no wonder! I was puzzled all along by the awesomely cogent delivery of absurdly flawed concepts!

That explains it. You're a smart guy arguing for something you know is flawed, and playing hide and go seek with logic.

lol

Ok, I put some thought into your last post. Everything you said is brilliant but essentially flawed. Do you even need me to address the flaws, or have you had enough of the game?

I probably shouldn't have revealed my anti-prophecy colours until after I was done with the game. Oh well.

Personally I'd rather debate you on something you actually believe, rather than having mock battles on a subject where one side is pretending to believe something he knows is wrong, and the other gets frustrated peeling through the layers of clever wordings of absurd concepts...

Up to you, I will respond to the last post if you want me to, including the ridiculous notion that if it's statistically possible to win the lottery then Yahweh exists but Allah doesn't

Fortunately, you can have your wish, and I can continue my game at the same time. You see, I genuinely believe that you have not satisfactorily debunked the Amos and Ezekiel prophecies. If all I had to go on was the information currently posted, I would be leaning towards belief in prophecy.

My disbelief in prophecy follows an entirely different line of reasoning, and I am curious if your line of reasoning will also be able to thwart it. I can honestly say that so far I don't think it has, so it seems to me that there is still plenty to debate.

Ok dude, briefly, because I've lost interest in debating with somebody who agrees with me already, here is my position:

As per Occam's Razor, I look for the most parsimonious explanation that fits all the facts, adding as few complicating assumptions as possible. Unless presented with positive evidence that the explanation thus reached is inadequate, I operate under the tentative assumption that it is accurate until such a time as such positive evidence is presented.

I can think of two types of explanations for the event in question.

1) By sheer chance the Bible got one prophecy right. This is entirely reasonable and feasible, given the number of prophecies it got wrong, given the self-fulfilling prophecy element, and given the statistical necessity of rare things happening every once in a while.

2) By an unknown process completely beyond our understanding and for which we have ZERO evidence, a person in the bronze age was able to transcend the very fabric of space-time and predict what would happen thousands of years in the future.

Explanation 1 operates strictly within what we know to be possible.

Explanation 2 assumes and constructs an enormous unwarranted unknown power/ability for which there is no explanatory necessity.

Thus it is reasonable to operate under the tentative assumption that explanation 1 is more likely to be the correct one.


Other thoughts:

We are 100% certain that explanation 1 is certifiably possible. We know for a fact that none of the phenomena involved are impossible.

We are NOT 100% certain that explanation 2 is certifiable possible. We do NOT know for a fact that none of the phenomena involved are impossible.


The prophecy wasn't written in the 8th century BC. The earliest copy of it we have is from around the year 70 BC, in the DSS.


The notion that the Bible predicts the date of 1948 is obviously nonsense. If you have a book with sufficient numbers, dates, measurements in it, you can find a way of making the numbers add up to anything you want.

Wanna bet that $100 that I can make some numbers in the Lord of the Rings add up to the uncanny and "inexplicable" parallel between the day Sauron was destroyed and the day Osama Bin Laden was killed?


If you think that my debunking of the prophecy claims was not that good, please present your argument, I'd be more interested in positive criticism and help improving my argument, than in testing my debating skills against inherently flawed assertions.


If you insist that we must pursue this line of argument, then I'll only agree to do so if at the same time I get to give you a taste of your medicine.

I would like to present the positive claim that the Israel prophecy did not exist in any Bible or other document prior to 1948. David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, had special powers which we don't currently understand, by virtue of which on the day he took office he was able to magically edit all Bible texts in existence to include the prophecy, and to implant the notion that that prophecy had always been there into the mind of ever living person, thus retrofitting the prophecy to fit the events.

How do you like them apples?

Now that I've made this positive claim, demonstrate that I failed to meet my burden of proof.