Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

[otseng]

Who are the biggest profaners of Gods Holy name today if not the Jews?

The Jews continue to serve the Beast, just as they did in the concentration camps where only one Nazi was needed to watch over a thousand Jews. The rest they made sure were able to go to the front lines, ... well it IS the same way today.

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[Danmark]

Who are the biggest profaners of Gods Holy name today if not the Jews? TV, Movies, music, Comedians all Jews that mock God and His beloved Son Jesus Christ. From Mel Brooks Hystory of the World part 1, to Bill Mahers religulous, to Adam Sandler and the rest of the 'Fockers' (the movie meet the Fockers) all mocking God and boasting their atheism while the Nazis are laughing their heads off that they finally made you believe that you are nothing but evolved animals, 'sub-human' just as they said during the holocaust. The Jews continue to serve the Beast, just as they did in the concentration camps where only one Nazi was needed to watch over a thousand Jews. The rest they made sure were able to go to the front lines, ... well it IS the same way today..

I would have reported this vile remark of yours to the moderators if the '!' had been visible, so I will have to settle for this public response. With this paragraph you have set Christianity back about 2000 years. This is the single most hateful passage I have seen on this forum. Your comment is shameful. I cannot tell you what I really think without demeaning myself. I would expect most Christians to join in protesting your sentiment.

Please show me ONE thing in my comment above that is not true, just one. Everything I said can be verified in history books, and documentaries of personal witnesses and survivors of the holocaust including the stories my relatives and mother told us.

Hateful?
Have you seen the movies that were made of the holocaust?

Do you deny the holocaust?

Please tell me in your opinion which one was more 'hateful', the people who made those documentaries, or the people who practically wiped out my ancestors the Jews? ... or those that deny the holocaust?

I protest that you are trying to interfere with my freedom of speech! Are you trying to deny the holocaust?

Either show me why my post is hateful, or retract your offensive tone towards me.

No one is denying the holocaust, at least no one here, and there is nothing in my post that suggests denial. You are the one claiming the holocaust should be blamed on its victims. What you've written is hate speech because it is directed at an entire people. You claim they worship the beast and profane and mock god. Then you demand an apology. To borrow cnorm's phrase, not with a gun held to my head.

You could mitigate your hate speech if you apologized for implying that it was aimed at all jews, and clarify that you are only angry with Jewish comedians. They seem to be the center of your target. BTW, you say they, or at least the ones you mention by name, 'all mock God and boasting their atheism.' I missed it when they all supposedly 'boast their atheism'. Maybe I was laughing too hard to hear the boasting.

[ThatGirlAgain]

The demons thought the end had come. It had not. From their point of view this alleged messiah, who was supposed to bring the end of days, was powerless in that regard. They no doubt told their boss about this and Satan proceeded to gear up big time for world domination. By not bringing about the end of days as had been promised, God encouraged Satan. How can you trust a bumbling God like that? What makes you think any other promises are going to be kept?

You miss the entire reason the Messiah was to come. This is one of the reasons Jews still wear the 'laws of Moses' on the outside of their foreheads during Jewish celebrations. (talking about believing in a bumbling god?)

I have documented the reasons and circumstances concerning the Messiah as documented in the Hebrew scriptures, which is what the debate in this thread is about. If the reason you claim is the real reason is at variance with that documentation, then Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah, just as I have been saying all along.

The tefillin are worn on the forehead and arm by Orthodox Jewish men during morning prayers and afterward as well by some people. They contain certain verses from the Torah concerning the deliverance of the Jews from Egypt. Tefillin are not worn on Shabbat or festival days. And I fail to see the relevance of this custom to your allegation of bumbling. Many religions have customs that serve to identify its members. Catholics dip their fingers in holy water and make the sign of the cross. Is that bumbling? The unfamiliar often seems odd. And from the discussion so far, one might infer that virtually everything about Judaism is unfamiliar to you. This would seem to be a significant disadvantage when the subject is whether Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.

Wrong. The episode with the woman and the child happens after the seventh trumpet when the end of days is already well under way. It is not in the past. It is in the future. I already pointed that out and you did not address it. Having Satan be the post-rebellion incarnation of evil in the NT is inconsistent with the picture presented in the OT. Reference to that kind of Satan cannot be used to justify the idea of Jesus as the Jewish Messiah.

Revelations reveals events, glimpses of the past, present and future not necessarily in chronological order.

If I found the NT writings and read them, ... and then fifty years later found out about the OT writings and read them, I would not think that creation of the world and the universe (Genesis) was after Jesus walked the earth and was crucified (New Testament). I bet even I could figure out which story came first. The same with Revelations. You have to try to understand it from Johns perspective, as a 'believer and follower of Christ' ... only you not believing in God can somewhat interfere with that... I would think.

Provide support for your contention that the events presented in Revelation (singular BTW) are not necessarily in chronological order other than that it makes it convenient to interpret it according to some predefined script. Once you have done that provide support for the idea that the actual order is in fact the order you want it to be. John of Patmos tells us right at the beginning of Revelation that these events must soon take place (Rev. 1:1) At the end, the angel says that these are the things that must soon take place. (Rev. 22:6) They are all in the future as of the time of writing. I also see no indication that the appearance of the woman does not immediately follow the seventh trumpet which is very obviously in the future. And John use of the word then (Rev 12:7) to talk about the war breaking out in heaven clearly indicates that this follows the woman giving birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. That part is very clearly in the future.

The order in which you read sections of a book has no bearing on the order in which the author intended the parts to be understood. I see no indication that John of Patmos intended the sequence of events to be in any order except the way he presents them.

First, that the kingdom of God will be established forcibly, by the sword to speak metaphorically.

I believe that is exactly how Constantine understood it.

Constantine was more of the persuasion type, and ultimately failed at that. Theodosius I was the real enforcer.

Isaiah 1
24 Therefore the Lord, the Lord Almighty,
the Mighty One of Israel, declares:
Ah! I will vent my wrath on my foes
and avenge myself on my enemies.
25 I will turn my hand against you;
I will thoroughly purge away your dross
and remove all your impurities.
26 I will restore your leaders as in days of old,
your rulers as at the beginning.
Afterward you will be called
the City of Righteousness,
the Faithful City.
27 Zion will be delivered with justice,
her penitent ones with righteousness.
28 But rebels and sinners will both be broken,
and those who forsake the Lord will perish.

Isaiah 2
12 The Lord Almighty has a day in store
for all the proud and lofty,
for all that is exalted
(and they will be humbled),
13 for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty,
and all the oaks of Bashan,
14 for all the towering mountains
and all the high hills,
15 for every lofty tower
and every fortified wall,
16 for every trading ship
and every stately vessel.
17 The arrogance of man will be brought low
and human pride humbled;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
18 and the idols will totally disappear.
19 People will flee to caves in the rocks
and to holes in the ground
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.
20 In that day people will throw away
to the moles and bats
their idols of silver and idols of gold,
which they made to worship.
21 They will flee to caverns in the rocks
and to the overhanging crags
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.

Isaiah 11
12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.
13 Ephraims jealousy will vanish,
and Judahs enemies will be destroyed;
Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah,
nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.
14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east.
They will subdue Edom and Moab,
and the Ammonites will be subject to them.
15 The Lord will dry up
the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand
over the Euphrates River.
He will break it up into seven streams
so that anyone can cross over in sandals.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people
that is left from Assyria,
as there was for Israel
when they came up from Egypt.

Isaiah 25
10 The hand of the Lord will rest on this mountain;
but Moab will be trampled in their land
as straw is trampled down in the manure.
11 They will stretch out their hands in it,
as swimmers stretch out their hands to swim.
God will bring down their pride
despite the cleverness of their hands.
12 He will bring down your high fortified walls
and lay them low;
he will bring them down to the ground,
to the very dust.

Isaiah 26
11 Lord, your hand is lifted high,
but they do not see it.
Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame;
let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them.

I couldn't quoted this better myself ThatGirlAgain, ... a perfect example of what has been going on for the past 4,000 years and what is coming on mankind and the Jews soon. Then everything will be burnt up (the old earth and the old heavens) and the New Eternal Kingdom revealed.

And none of these prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus. What makes him the Jewish Messiah?

Isaiah 26
19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise"
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy"
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

That is the Day of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead, ... very good.

Again in the future, not something fulfilled by Jesus.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.

Not hide, hide, but hide from the influence of wickedness, (come out of her my people) ... like that.

21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

That Day of the Lord is coming, ... you see that? Jesus will return with power and might NOT to save this time, but "to punish the people of the earth for their sins."

What makes you say that Jesus is returning. He was supposed to return immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple while some of the people who heard him say that would still be alive. Guess again.

The Hebrew scriptures make no mention at all of a double visitation by the Messiah. If Jesus is the Jewish Messiah he should have done all these things the first time around. He did not. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

Isaiah 59
17 He put on righteousness as his breastplate,
and the helmet of salvation on his head;
he put on the garments of vengeance
and wrapped himself in zeal as in a cloak.
18 According to what they have done,
so will he repay
wrath to his enemies
and retribution to his foes;
he will repay the islands their due.
19 From the west, people will fear the name of the Lord,
and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.
For he will come like a pent-up flood
that the breath of the Lord drives along.
20 The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,
declares the Lord.

The Isaiah 26 reference to the resurrection of the dead makes it clear that it is the end of days that Isaiah is talking about.

The kingdom will be a physical one.

A real one, a spiritual kingdom not a physical one. Only it is explained in a physical sense for the OT listeners to understand, those who still lived according to the flesh and not according to the spirit. This Spiritual understanding came with Christ, and after He left, He sent that Spiritual Kingdom for those who are born again and enter it with their spiritual minds. You can see these symbolic 'spiritual' references next in Isaiah:

Isaiah 60
10 Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
and their kings will serve you.
Though in anger I struck you,
in favor I will show you compassion.
11 Your gates will always stand open,
they will never be shut, day or night,
so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations"
their kings led in triumphal procession.
12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
it will be utterly ruined.
13 The glory of Lebanon will come to you,
the juniper, the fir and the cypress together,
to adorn my sanctuary;
and I will glorify the place for my feet.
14 The children of your oppressors will come bowing before you;
all who despise you will bow down at your feet
and will call you the City of the Lord,
Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15 Although you have been forsaken and hated,
with no one traveling through,
I will make you the everlasting pride
and the joy of all generations.
16 You will drink the milk of nations
and be nursed at royal breasts.
Then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
17 Instead of bronze I will bring you gold,
and silver in place of iron.
Instead of wood I will bring you bronze,
and iron in place of stones.
I will make peace your governor
and well-being your ruler.
18 No longer will violence be heard in your land,
nor ruin or destruction within your borders,
but you will call your walls Salvation
and your gates Praise.

Rebuild walls, gates will stand open, people will bring the wealth of nations, kings led in triumphal procession, nations and kingdoms to be ruined, valuable woods to adorn the sanctuary, children of oppressors will bow, drink the milk of nations, gold and silver, no violence in the land, no ruin or destruction in the borders

Very plainly and explicitly physical. I cannot imagine how you cannot see that.

Zechariah 8
19 This is what the Lord Almighty says: The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.
20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going. 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.
23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.

Look; This is what the Lord Almighty says: In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.

Now if you think that is not of a future spiritual reference then you are not being too honest with yourself. These Jews are the 'believers', those who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ, not the physically minded unbelieving Jews of today.

People will still be living in cities " physical. And it says Jew, not Christian or Jesus follower. The kingdom discussed in the Hebrew scriptures is to be a physical Jewish one, just like all the other prophecies say.

I am omitting and not responding to the offensive portion of your post. I will not encourage that kind of thing.

Isaiah 51
3 The Lord will surely comfort Zion
and will look with compassion on all her ruins;
he will make her deserts like Eden,
her wastelands like the garden of the Lord.
Joy and gladness will be found in her,
thanksgiving and the sound of singing.
4 Listen to me, my people;
hear me, my nation:
Instruction will go out from me;
my justice will become a light to the nations.

But there will be no more death or suffering.

Isaiah 25
6 On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine"
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his peoples disgrace
from all the earth.

Now, can you cite OT references that somehow negate all of the above and also predict that the kingdom will be invisible and that it will somehow arrive long before the end of days? Remember it has to be OT references to establish Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. NT references to invisible kingdoms are flimflams intended to cover up the fact that the alleged messiah failed to deliver on the promises.

Invisible to the physical eyes, as the teaching of Christ is to them today. How long will it take for those laws of Moses the Jews wear on their foreheads to sink into their brains, into their minds and hearts? Does EVERYTHING has to be physical to them? The reality is God and no one has seen God with their eyes. You must come to know God, and frankly, saying you don't believe in God is NOT the way to go about it.

All of the prophecies talk in very explicit physical terms. Yes it has to be physical to satisfy the prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures. Your invisible kingdom does not work. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

According to the OT (see all the above quotes an especially see Isaiah 11) the Kingdom of God will be ruled by the Jewish Messiah. It will be an earthly kingdom blessed by God with a human descendent of David as its earthly ruler.

]Isaiah 2
2 In the last days
the mountain of the Lords temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
3 Many peoples will come and say,
Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
5 Come, descendants of Jacob,
let us walk in the light of the Lord[/i]

This is talking about the Jew Jesus Christ, ... with the final destruction of this earthly rule of Satan, and that New Eternal Kingdom revealed. How could you not see this?

I cannot see it because it did not happen. These are all future things. There is no mention in the Hebrew scriptures of two messianic visits. In any case the second one was, according to the NT, supposed to happen immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple while some of the people who heard Jesus say this would still be alive. This was supposed to be the tie in between Jesus and the Jewish Messiah by referencing Daniel. Did not happen. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah

The destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem happened. But they were supposed to be followed very quickly by the Second Coming. Did not happen. By the time that John and Acts were written this had become painfully obvious and other excuses were needed. John has it become a misunderstanding that it would happen quickly despite the very explicit language of the Synoptic Gospels and the clear expectation of Paul. Acts changes it from Jesus returning to the Holy Spirit, again despite explicit language in the Synoptics and Paul about an imminent return of Jesus and a universal judgment.

Not only do the OT prophecies fall flat. So do the NT ones.

No, not only the Holy Spirit that entered the believers, but the Spiritual Kingdom that was revealed to their minds. I know it IS hard, but we have to at least start to imagine the 'mind/spirit/soul' of man separate from the body. I had a hard time separating it too because we think that the brain creates the mind, ... that somehow those electrical impulses make up the 'mind', but it's not. The mind is our spirit that resides in this temple, or body and even though it is invisible, it is very real, ... without it we could not reason, walk, talk, create, OR live. We would be no different than a clay sculpture.

The New Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom that for now only our 'mind' can enter in and out from. And as Jesus said; "where two or three are gathered in my name, there I will be in the midst of you" It is NOT by sight...

Once more: This spiritual kingdom is not what was prophesized. Something entirely different was prophesized. It did not happen. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

Evolution and the Big Bang are irrelevant to what the OT says, which is entirely different from what the NT says. That is the subject of the debate, whether Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. And the answer is no.

It is exactly that, Evolution and the BB theory that has blinded you making you believe that you are sub-human that keeps you believing Satans lie that Jesus is NOT the Messiah. Evolution is very relevant against seeing the truth before you. That is the whole reason Satan makes his followers, his children teach it! Animals are far easier to manage than humans, ... especially 'believers', and we should have learned that from the last holocaust.

You really have no answer to all of the objections to Jesus being the Jewish Messiah, do you? Debate the topic, not fall back on some rally round the flag Us vs. Them scenario, invoking everything except the subject itself.

I have debated, I do debate and I will keep debating and try to open your eyes my friend. You can't see what you refuse to see, you can't believe that Jesus is the Messiah if you don't believe in God... it just won't work that way, it can't work that way... sorry.

You have not presented any significant argumentation or evidence that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, the Messiah according to the Hebrew scriptures. Your arguments consist entirely of using the NT to justify the NT and trying to reverse the meaning of the OT passages. Like It says Jew but it really means non-Jew.

And again: You really have no answer to all of the objections to Jesus being the Jewish Messiah, do you? Debate the topic, not fall back on some rally round the flag Us vs. Them scenario.

Every objection you have pointed out from Scriptures actually supports that a Messiah will come, and will be a descendent of David, be rejected by His People he came for, and die, be resurrected, bring the laws into the minds and hearts of men, through Jews because He was a Jew save the whole world, and finally bring in the Eternal Kingdom He promised. But if one believes he/she is sub-human, an evolved animal and denies his/her Creator, none of this really matters now does it?

Show me a passage that says that the Messiah will be rejected, killed and be resurrected. I have presented lots of explicit messianic prophecies. Not one of them even comes close what you claim and those ideas would be radically opposed to the sense of what I have presented. All of the claims you make are from narrow quote mining. When the full context of the passages is shown, the claims go up in smoke.

It is those who sin against the ones who gladly do right whose righteous acts are like filthy rags because they are hypocritical in also sinning at the same time and against exactly those that the Lord respects for being truly righteous.

The Bible is a not a collection of Confucius says one-liners. Read " and quote " in context.

More offensive material omitted.

If you have indeed seen Jesus and angels and demons and that others can see this for themselves by coming to your house, I suggest that you get in touch with Randi. Convincing him will convince the world.

More offensive material omitted.

I already gave extensive quotes on how the kingdom will be established by force according to the OT. If the NT says differently, then Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

Well according to you God is not God either since you don't believe in God, ... so how would I debate what you just said?

I am debating the meaning of what the scriptures say. Believing that the scriptures say some particular thing when it is painfully obvious that they say something completely different is not a requirement. If it were this site would not exist.

Give me OT references to support your claim. I have already given lots of OT references that say the opposite of what you say. NT references will not work. If they contradict the OT it will only prove that Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

No contradiction my friend, only lack of understanding. It is hard to understand what you don't believe in.

You have no references to offer apparently.

It IS obvious, that is why the war against it!

Totally unobvious, being both invisible and apparently having no way of verifying its actuality as well as contradicting the OT all over the place.

The OT was dictated to Prophets by an invisible God, why are you using it then? Have you verified the validity of this invisible God before you use His prophesies?

I gave the OT quotes above. Find OT quotes that say something else. NT quotes do not count. If they contradict the OT, then Jesus is not the Jewish messiah.

There is no contradiction... only the lack or unwillingness to comprehend. If you don't believe in God, it's hard to understand His Prophesies.

I can read what the prophecies plainly say. Fulfillment of the prophecies is supposed to engender faith. The prophecies were not fulfilled. So why should one have faith in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah when he obviously is not.

In the rich man story Jesus shows that no matter how much 'works' we do, it is not enough because there is always something we will lack in. Jesus is the paid-in-full release, not our deeds.

Wrong. In Mark 10, when the man says he has always obeyed the action oriented commandments that Jesus specified, Jesus looked at him and loved him. Jesus realized that this was exactly the kind of person he wanted to help spread the word about the need for a return to righteousness. So Jesus invited him to shed all his worldly ties and follow Jesus on the road along with his other disciples. For everyone to sell their possessions and give to the poor would make the poor rich and ineligible for heaven. And who bought all those possessions anyway? They would now need to sell them to be saved. Who is going to buy them? Only the poor have any money now. But now the poor have all these possession they have to sell. And where are the poor that they are supposed to give to once they sell? And who did the buying this time?

Making the advice to the rich man a universal injunction simply does not work. Having Jesus invite him and him alone to join the itinerant band of disciples on the road works very well.

Why give the Red Cross money to rebuild hurricane torn places, ... another one will eventually come along again and again and they will need more money to rebuild, ... over and over again. Same with tornadoes, earth quakes, wars and so on.

You completely misunderstand the rich young ruler story. I have explained this to you several times before... only it doesn't make sense to you since you don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, or that God exists. Heck, you don't even believe you are a human created in your Creators image?

I have explained that your interpretation of the rich man story is obviously incorrect. Address my objections. But I see that you are just falling back on irrelevancies again.

As quoted extensively above, the kingdom of God on earth is all that there will be. Anyone who does not come into the kingdom gets destroyed. And that is all very literally physical, not some twisted metaphor.

Yes the physical part will be all destroyed... and that new Kingdom is an Everlasting Spiritual kingdom, only visible to the New spiritual born-again people of God. This cannot pass away because it is more real than this decaying physical creation that we infected with sin. That New Kingdom 'is all that there will be', and very real.

The Hebrew scriptures very clearly show the Kingdom as physical. There is no indication of the physical being destroyed. And anyway, you are saying that the Kingdom is already here and invisible. Is the Kingdom coming again, just like Jesus?

So it IS deeds that gain salvation. Upstream you said it was not, that deeds were filthy rags (by quoting out of context).

Faith without works is dead, and the only thing 'works' shows is our faith and love. If we do evil, it shows we don't believe in God, and that we hate. If we do good it shows we do believe, but will not get us in Heaven. Jesus gets us in Heaven, our works can only show we believe in Jesus.

Works in the Lord shows faith in the Lord. Works for the church or self shows faith in the church or self. The church will not save anyone, nor will the self, Jesus saves.
Helping those fellow believers who are in need reveals love, and those that show love show that they believe in God of love which in turn reveals that Christ is in us, and we in Christ.
If we love only those that love us and help only those that repay us, we loose our reward, ... but the reward is after we are saved and can collect on only after we enter Heaven.

Is this a little more clear?

Clear as mud. In the story of Jesus explaining how to get eternal life, Jesus downplays his own role and makes no mention of belief or faith or anything like that. He says to DO. In Matthew 25, the sheep were rewarded for doing what they did and were surprised that there was a religious connotation to it. Jesus made it plain that it is all about action. Insisting on faith as the primary requirement - or the exclusive one as some claim " is just more self congratulatory Us vs. Them thinking. And I see you omitted the part where you said that those who never heard of Jesus could still be saved by their actions. It was your self-contradiction that I was challenging you on, a point you have not addressed.

According to Mark, Matthew and Luke, the end of days was supposed to immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, while some of the people hearing the words of Jesus were still alive. Should have been finished a long time ago.

Face it. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. I do not see you even trying to address that point anymore.

Jesus is the Jewish messiah and the entire NT reveals this in clear understandable language, and is revealed to those that want to hear, not to those that don't believe in God.

First thing first, do you seek the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind? If no, then trying to understand what you don't believe in, nor seek to believe in is useless, it will never happen.

You can lead a kid to school, but you can't make him learn, ... or is that a horse to water but can't make him drink?... well, anyways... thanks my friend, and remember that Jesus IS the Messiah.

The NT is an attempt to make Jesus the Messiah despite him not meeting the requirements specified in the OT. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. What you are saying is: ignore all the evidence to the contrary, just believe what you are told even if it makes no sense.

Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

[arian]

Well, as the OT clearly describes the Messiah as a Teacher/Leader/Warrior, and the NT describes Jesus as a hellenistic Savior/Redeemer that is found nowhere in the OT descriptions, it seems clear that Jesus could not be the Messiah, and that Christians don't even consider him as such.

"Christ" is Greek for "Messiah."

Well, more accurately, "Christ" is the Greek translation of "Anointed," and "Messiah" is the Hebrew translation.

More to the point; word origins aside, the two terms do not have the same meaning for Jews and for Christians. The concept of the Jewish Messiah is not the same as the concept of the Christian Christ.

In Jewish tradition, the Messiah was to be an ordinary mortal man -- anointed, to be sure, just as King David was, but a mortal man, also just as David was.

Jesus was mortal, was subject to temptation as we are, suffered pain, hunger, shame, insults and even an agonizing death as we do. I am Jew, and your continuous references and hints to my Jewish brother Jesus as being some white blond blue-eyed Gentile savior is offensive to me, and all of us believers in our Savior.

His appearance was to coincide with the beginning of the Messianic Age, an age of perfect peace, justice, and faith.

Your denial of the Jewish Messiah and his teachings that were written in the NT is obvious and intentional. Jesus did exactly what you deny He did, he brought the beginning of the Messianic Age, an age of perfect peace, justice and faith. He taught us Jews to love our neighbors as we love ourselves, to love those that even hate us, not what we showed Him; hate and injustice. The woman brought before him caught in adultery was another perfect example of Gods 'perfect justice', ... "let him without sin cast the first stone!"

Healing the sick, raising the dead showed us 'faith', and telling us that if we had the faith of the size of a mustard seed, we could lift mountains.

What is a more perfect peace than loving our enemies? To turn the other cheek when someone slaps us? To go the extra mile? Show me that from the OT teachings?

There is no hint anywhere in Jewish teaching or tradition that the Messiah was to be God Incarnate,

Neither will you find that in the Jewish New Testament teachings, only in Constantine's Christian religion which obviously portrayed a white, blond blue-eyed god named Jesus who had a mother who gave birth to a god, not a human as Jesus was.

... the literal Son of God, raised from the dead, or a "savior" from sin.

Read the promise God gave to Abraham, and on, ... 'No Abraham, don't kill your son for I see that you would not hold anything back from me, ... God will provide a lamb, a sacrifice ...'

There are entire web-sites written on proving Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, and that God will raise Him and so on ... as if you didn't know?

In Christian teachings and traditions, the Christ was all of those; God in the flesh,

Please quote the 'Jewish New Testament Scriptures' to prove this, not some Gentile pagan religion. I find your comparisons of our Jewish Messiah to some gentile god very offensive and shocking ... but don't worry, I will not report you. I love you just the same, because I have learned this from the Prince of Peace, the Jewish Messiah Himself who revealed God to us.

(Jews don't believe that He was the) Son of God, raised from the dead, and a Savior from sin.

Really? Then Please tell me, what saves the Jews of today of their sins? Is it their perfect heart-felt sacrifices of unblemished lambs, or doves? Or maybe it's their deeds, or traditions? Or is it their 'unbelief' in Gods Messenger, the Messiah? I could see it now God saying; 'very good my people, don't you believe that Jewish Jesus fellow! Good thing you killed him, ... and if another one shows up showing sings and miracles, healing the sick, raising the dead, preaching some eternal peace on earth and taking being slapped and spit in the face, hey kill him too!' Yes, a god may be saying that, but it sure isn't the God of the Jewish Prophets of old, not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I can tell you that!

Please notice; I do not say that these are not true, nor that the Christian faith is false. See below.

Most believers (who still call themselves Christians) still believe that Jesus was a Jew, but the 'Christian Religion' obviously paints a very different PICTURE (literally).

History wise, obviously "Christians" consider Jesus (Yeshua) as the Messiah (Christ).
And for them, he may well have been just that; as I have often posted here, and as I have told several rabbis, Jesus may well have been sent as a sort of "Messiah to the Gentiles"; the Jews have always been a small people, and the rest of humanity ought to have some way to learn of the One God and the Torah.

So you admit Jesus came to teach about the One True God of Israel? But the NT clearly quotes Jesus as coming to the lost sheep of Israel, NOT to the gentiles! So you are actually admitting that Jesus WAS the Messiah of the Jews.

As I've also said very often; we Jews claim to know only how God spoke to US, in the tradition; if He chose to speak to some other peoples in some other way, that is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to say He did not. (Incidentally, all the rabbis I have shared this with have "raised an eyebrow," so to speak -- but they also said that they could not say that I am wrong.)

Funny, did you know my mothers maiden name was Rabbi? Her name was Rabbi Julianna. ... just thought I'd share that with you.

God spoke to us through His Prophets, He hated our 'traditions'.

There is no reason why Jews and Christians have to be enemies; and there is no reason why Christians may not regard Jesus as their Messiah, or even the Jewish Messiah if they like; but there is also no reason why Jews should be expected to agree on the last point.

Constantine's Christian Religion was as much of the early believers/followers of Christ's enemies as the majority of the Jews were. So in that sense they were in one mind, to attack and destroy that New Kingdom of Peace that was obviously coming to earth.
Our (believers) war now is against these principalities and powers of darkness (ideas, doctrines, theories) which are opposing the Messiahs rule of love and peace. Christians are proud to go to war against each other, KNOWING well that it is against Christ's teachings.

Judaism and Christianity have common historical and literary roots; but they are two separate and distinct religions, and both have grown and changed much -- evolved, if you like -- since the first century of the common era.

No, ... the Christian Religion was created by the gentile Constantine in about 325AD, while the 'early believers' followed the New commandment of love taught by the JEWISH Messiah, not a gentile Constantine and his gods. These 'Christians' tortured and killed those early Jewish and converted gentile believers, just as they did throughout history.

The Jews gladly denied the Messiah, but Satan knew they were the 'Chosen' of God, so he continues to persecute them to extinction. The Bible tells us that this last one coming will be the worst, for only a small remnant will be left of the Jews, and I see this happening with my own two eyes. Not only see it, but FEEL it every day.

At one time, Christianity was briefly a Jewish sect; that did not last long. It quickly became a Gentile religion, and began to include elements and teach things that Jews may not accept and remain Jews.

You confuse the gentile religion named 'Christian' with the early believers and followers of Christ who the Jews and gentiles called Christ-like, they never called themselves that. They were referred to as the 'way' and they considered themselves 'believers', not by name, but by faith. They followed the ways of Jesus, not a religion, or the Jewish traditions, read the NT and you will see. The gentile Christian Religion was established as I learned from history, by Constantine, a Gentile pagan god worshiping heathen man who persecuted the early church to almost extinction.

We are brothers, and we should cooperate and strengthen each other on the very many things we have in common; but we are not the same.

The Jews may fool themselves into believing they are brothers with Christians (I would like to make a distinction between 'believers' who are either Jew or grafted in Jews, who still don't understand what the Christian Religion is all about, and the Christians that wear the mark of the beast, the trinity doctrine, and proudly send their kids to war against the poor, the weak, the unarmed men women and children in the world. Those that walk in sheep's clothing (preach love and turning the other cheek) but inside are ravenous wolves and make no distinction who they murder, just as Jesus warned us of!)
The Gentile Christians have always persecuted the Jews, OR accepted their help for a time like they did the Jew Hitler. Satan doesn't care who is on his side, as long as they support his cause. As far as Satan goes, all humanity is his enemy because we were all created in Gods image, and he will not stop until that last image is wiped from the face of the earth.

Christ came to reveal the truth, so either you continue in darkness, or accept and be a light in this world, ... either way we shall all reap what we sow.

[cnorman18]

"...the Jew Hitler"?

Have a nice day.

[arian]

... I am omitting and not responding to the offensive portion of your post. I will not encourage that kind of thing.



... More offensive material omitted.



... More offensive material omitted.


Clear as mud.

Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

Jesus was NOT the Messiah the Jews were expecting as you yourself make it clear, and because of that they refused Him, and crucified Him.

This is no longer debate but argument, accusations which are turning into anger. Refusing to believe in God does not mean you can blaspheme the Lord who millions have accepted as their Savior.
I cannot PROVE to you anything you don't believe in, and I'm sorry that I even tried. It is obvious why you are on this Forum, and many others here, ... the names I will not mention.

Jesus IS the Jewish Messiah,
He is NOT God,
He is not a Christian
nor a deity who divined for us
nor did He create the 'Christian Religion',
He is the Only Begotten Son of God who was prophesied to come to redeem His People the Jews, to set them free. The rest is history, ... please don't be angry at me, because I know and believe that one day you will thank me, (... or wish you had thanked me.)

I found this on the internet, must be thousands like it. I don't expect you to believe any of it since you don't believe in God, the Bible or the Messiah, most likely it will be just 'mud' to you, I just pray it doesn't fuel the anger already present here. If you read the NT you would realize that nothing changed from the time Jesus first unrolled the scroll and read fro Isaiah ... they wanted to kill Him right there and then, never the less, here it is;

Fulfilled Prophecies

The following prophecies concerning Jesus Christ were given in the Old Testament during the time frame of approximately 1700 BC - 400 BC. These prophecies were fulfilled hundreds of years later, during Jesus Christ's life on earth. Each of the prophecies listed below are followed in parentheses by the scripture references for both the prophecy and the fulfillment.

1. He would be born of a Virgin (Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:18).
2. He would be of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 and Luke 3:23, 33).
3. He would be of King David's seed (Jeremiah 23:5 and Luke 3:23, 31).
4. He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2 and Matthew 2:1).
5. He would be a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Matthew 21:11).
6. He would teach with parables (Psalms 78:2 and Matthew 13:34).
7. He would be preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, and Matthew 3:1-2).
8. He would enter Jerusalem on a colt (Zechariah 9:9 and Luke 19:35-37).
9. He would be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9 and Matthew 26:47-50).
10. He would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12 and Matthew 26:15).
11. He would be forsaken by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7 and Mark 14:50).
12. The money would be thrown in the temple and used to buy the potter's field (Zechariah 11:13 and Matthew 27:5-7).
13. He would be accused by false witnesses (Psalms 35:11 and Matthew 26:59-60).
14. He would be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7 and Matthew 27:12-14).
15. He would be beaten by his enemies (Isaiah 50:6, 53:5, and Matthew 27:26).
16. He would be spit upon and beaten (Isaiah 50:6 and Matthew 27:30).
17. He would be struck in the head with a rod (Micah 5:1 and Matthew 27:30).
18. He would be mocked (Psalms 22:7-8 and Matthew 27:29, 31).
19. His hands and feet would be pierced (Psalms 22:16, Luke 23:33, and John 20:25).
Note that this was predicted hundreds of years before crucifixion was invented.
20. Men would gamble for His clothing (Psalms 22:18 and John 19:23-24).
21. He would intercede in prayer for His transgressors (Isaiah 53:12 and Luke 23:34).
22. He would suffer thirst (Psalms 22:15 and John 19:28).
23. He would be offered gall and water (Psalms 69:21 and Matthew 27:34).
24. He would cry, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" (Psalms 22:1 and Matthew 27:46).
25. He would be cut down in His prime (Psalms 89:45 and 102:23-24).
26. None of His bones would be broken (Exodus 12:46, Psalms 34:20, and John 19:32-33).
27. They would look upon Him whom they had pierced (Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:34).
28. He would be executed with thieves (Isaiah 53:12 and Matthew 27:38).
29. He would be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9 and Matthew 27:57-60).

Note that the majority of these prophecies concern the death of Jesus Christ and the events surrounding it. This is especially interesting considering the fact that none of Christ's disciples realized that Jesus Christ was going to die.

In Luke 18:33, Christ, referring to Himself as "the Son of man", told His disciples what would happen to Him, "And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again." That would have been pretty easy to understand, but God hid the saying from their understanding. The next verse, Luke 18:34, says, "And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken."

Despite the fact that Jesus Christ had told them plainly, His disciples still did not realize He was going to die and rise again. The Jews knew from the Old Testament prophecies that the Messiah would be a King that would reign over Israel forever. So they naturally assumed (incorrectly) that the Messiah must never die. Not even His disciples knew about Christ's death, and the Old Testament prophets would have known even less. So there would be no reason for the Old Testament prophets to have written anything about the death of the Messiah, except for the divine hand of God who knew the future. The prophets themselves did not even understand that they were writing of the Messiah's death.

Now we come to two of the most interesting prophecies:

Messiah to come to His temple
The Messiah, being preceded by a messenger (John the Baptist) will suddenly come to His temple. Malachi 3:1 says, "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in ...." The Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, and the temple has not yet been rebuilt in all these 1900 plus years. Many non-Christian Jews have been looking for the Messiah to appear for centuries. But this passage makes it clear that the arrival of the Messiah could not have taken place between 70 AD and the present.

Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks
While the prophet Daniel was captive in Babylon in about 538 BC, God revealed the prophecy of Israel's 70 weeks to him in Daniel 9:24-26. "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Israel) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (killed), but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the temple) ...." In this prophecy, the following sequence of events are revealed.

A. There would one day be a commandment to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, which the Babylonians had destroyed years earlier. This was fulfilled in 445 BC by Artaxerxes, king of the Medo-Persian Empire (465-424 BC), nearly a century after the prophecy was given. See Nehemiah 2:1-8 for the account of how Nehemiah asked Artaxerxes for the permission and the means to rebuild the ruins of the city of Jerusalem. In Nehemiah 2:1, we see that this took place "... in the month Nisan (the first month of the Hebrew calendar which occurs in early spring), in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king (445 BC) ...."

B. From the giving of this commandment to the Messiah would be 69 weeks of years (seven plus threescore and two) after which the Messiah would be cut off (killed). This was fulfilled when Jesus Christ was crucified on the 14th day of Nisan (the passover) of 32 AD, right on schedule.

Here is how the calculation of the 69 weeks of years works: Weeks of years are sevens of years, and seven times 69 is 483 years. But we know from the detail of the seventieth week provided in the book of Revelation, that these years are 360 days rather than the years on our present calendar which, figuring in leap years, are approximately 365.25 days. Revelation 12:14 describes the second half of the tribulation as "a time, times, and half a time" (1 + 2 + 1/2 = 3 1/2 years). Revelation 12:6 says this is "a thousand two hundred and threescore (1260) days", and Revelation 13:5 says it is "forty and two months". Since 1260 / 42 = 30 and 1260 / 3.5 = 360, we know that in this prophecy, God is counting months as 30 days each and years as 360 days each. Since the tribulation is a part of the 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, we know that the 360-day years must be used. So to see how many of our years this is, we calculate 483 * (360 / 365.25) = 476 years, 0 months, and a few days. Moving forward from the 445 BC date, this brings us to the early spring of 32 AD (476 - 445 + 1 = 32), when Jesus Christ was crucified. The one must be added to account for the fact that there is no "year 0". The year after 1 BC was 1 AD. The calculation here is somewhat simplified and shows that at a minimum, the prophecy was accurate to within a very few days. Some scholars have used additional evidence for the difficult task of calculating this prophecy to the exact day. To do this, they have to know the day of the month that the commandment of Artaxerxes was given plus the astrological history of moon phases as viewed from Jerusalem, since the months of the Hebrew calendar are based upon observance of the moon phases. As for me, I am more than satisfied to know that the prophecy was accurate to the month 5796 months in advance (12 * 483 = 5796), but readers who are inclined to pursue the more detailed calculation to the exact day are welcome to do so.

Now one might wonder why God didn't use our 365.25-day years in His prophecy? We cannot be certain, but perhaps He was using the same number of days per year that the earth had when He created it. We know from Genesis 7:11 and 8:3-4 that a calendar with 30 day months was used before the great flood. It may be that in the catastrophe of the flood, the earth's rotational speed was increased slightly. One way this could happen would be if the earth's density were increased due to the tremendous seismic activity and the collapse of the water canopy which God used to trigger the flood. Genesis 7:11-12 says, "... all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights." This increase of density would have increased the earth's rotational speed by reducing its moment of inertia in the same way that spinning ice skaters spin faster when they pull their out-stretched arms in closer to their bodies. If the period of the earth's revolution around the sun did not change, then there would be more days per year after the great flood than there were before the flood. Now let's continue to the next event in the sequence of the Daniel 9 prophecy.

C. The people of the prince which is to come will destroy Jerusalem and the temple. This was fulfilled by Titus and the Roman Empire in 70 AD. In the war with the Jews, the Roman army besieged and destroyed Jerusalem, burned the temple, and killed more than one million Jews.

It is interesting to note that when this destruction was prophesied in 538 BC, Jerusalem and temple had not even been rebuilt yet. The part of this prophecy regarding the "prince which is to come" concerns the AntiChrist who must come from the revived Roman Empire in the future tribulation which will be the seventieth week of the prophecy (Daniel 9:27).

There are several amazing things about this prophecy: It accurately predicted the time of Jesus Christ's crucifixion, more than 500 years before it happened. It sandwiched His death between two future events (A and C) which have both been very well documented in history. Both of the events came true even though they were prophesied hundreds of years in advance. When one considers that this prophecy amazingly predicted events A and C above, then believing that it was also correct on event B does not exactly require a leap of faith.

[ThatGirlAgain]

Jesus was NOT the Messiah the Jews were expecting as you yourself make it clear, and because of that they refused Him, and crucified Him.

Then Jesus was not the Messiah of the Hebrew Bible, which is the topic of this thread.

This is no longer debate but argument, accusations which are turning into anger. Refusing to believe in God does not mean you can blaspheme the Lord who millions have accepted as their Savior.
I cannot PROVE to you anything you don't believe in, and I'm sorry that I even tried. It is obvious why you are on this Forum, and many others here, ... the names I will not mention.

It was debate on my side. I was dealing with evidence. You turned it into a question of faith. All it was ever supposed to be was an investigation into whether Jesus qualified as the Messiah described in the Hebrew scriptures. It is still my contention that this is not the case.

I am on this forum to debate/discuss religion, especially Christianity, because of its influence on history. Understanding the forces that formed the various religions is an essential part of that. you are assuming an Us vs. Them scenario. Not in my case.

You can prove things to me by presenting good evidence that supports a good argument. I did not see that. It would appear that you are not going to take seriously any evidence or argumentation I offer, considering anything other than your preconceived notions as blasphemy, so I am not bothering anymore.

No anger on my part, just a desire to conserve time and energy for more productive use.

[arian]

Jesus was NOT the Messiah the Jews were expecting as you yourself make it clear, and because of that they refused Him, and crucified Him.

Then Jesus was not the Messiah of the Hebrew Bible, which is the topic of this thread.

Fulfilled Prophecies

The following prophecies concerning Jesus Christ were given in the Old Testament during the time frame of approximately 1700 BC - 400 BC. These prophecies were fulfilled hundreds of years later, during Jesus Christ's life on earth. Each of the prophecies listed below are followed in parentheses by the scripture references for both the prophecy and the fulfillment.

1. He would be born of a Virgin (Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:18).
2. He would be of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 and Luke 3:23, 33).
3. He would be of King David's seed (Jeremiah 23:5 and Luke 3:23, 31).
4. He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2 and Matthew 2:1).
5. He would be a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Matthew 21:11).
6. He would teach with parables (Psalms 78:2 and Matthew 13:34).
7. He would be preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, and Matthew 3:1-2).
8. He would enter Jerusalem on a colt (Zechariah 9:9 and Luke 19:35-37).
9. He would be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9 and Matthew 26:47-50).
10. He would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12 and Matthew 26:15).
11. He would be forsaken by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7 and Mark 14:50).
12. The money would be thrown in the temple and used to buy the potter's field (Zechariah 11:13 and Matthew 27:5-7).
13. He would be accused by false witnesses (Psalms 35:11 and Matthew 26:59-60).
14. He would be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7 and Matthew 27:12-14).
15. He would be beaten by his enemies (Isaiah 50:6, 53:5, and Matthew 27:26).
16. He would be spit upon and beaten (Isaiah 50:6 and Matthew 27:30).
17. He would be struck in the head with a rod (Micah 5:1 and Matthew 27:30).
18. He would be mocked (Psalms 22:7-8 and Matthew 27:29, 31).
19. His hands and feet would be pierced (Psalms 22:16, Luke 23:33, and John 20:25).
Note that this was predicted hundreds of years before crucifixion was invented.
20. Men would gamble for His clothing (Psalms 22:18 and John 19:23-24).
21. He would intercede in prayer for His transgressors (Isaiah 53:12 and Luke 23:34).
22. He would suffer thirst (Psalms 22:15 and John 19:28).
23. He would be offered gall and water (Psalms 69:21 and Matthew 27:34).
24. He would cry, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" (Psalms 22:1 and Matthew 27:46).
25. He would be cut down in His prime (Psalms 89:45 and 102:23-24).
26. None of His bones would be broken (Exodus 12:46, Psalms 34:20, and John 19:32-33).
27. They would look upon Him whom they had pierced (Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:34).
28. He would be executed with thieves (Isaiah 53:12 and Matthew 27:38).
29. He would be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9 and Matthew 27:57-60).

Note that the majority of these prophecies concern the death of Jesus Christ and the events surrounding it. This is especially interesting considering the fact that none of Christ's disciples realized that Jesus Christ was going to die.

In Luke 18:33, Christ, referring to Himself as "the Son of man", told His disciples what would happen to Him, "And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again." That would have been pretty easy to understand, but God hid the saying from their understanding. The next verse, Luke 18:34, says, "And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken."

Despite the fact that Jesus Christ had told them plainly, His disciples still did not realize He was going to die and rise again. The Jews knew from the Old Testament prophecies that the Messiah would be a King that would reign over Israel forever. So they naturally assumed (incorrectly) that the Messiah must never die. Not even His disciples knew about Christ's death, and the Old Testament prophets would have known even less. So there would be no reason for the Old Testament prophets to have written anything about the death of the Messiah, except for the divine hand of God who knew the future. The prophets themselves did not even understand that they were writing of the Messiah's death.

Now we come to two of the most interesting prophecies:

Messiah to come to His temple
The Messiah, being preceded by a messenger (John the Baptist) will suddenly come to His temple. Malachi 3:1 says, "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in ...." The Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, and the temple has not yet been rebuilt in all these 1900 plus years. Many non-Christian Jews have been looking for the Messiah to appear for centuries. But this passage makes it clear that the arrival of the Messiah could not have taken place between 70 AD and the present.

Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks
While the prophet Daniel was captive in Babylon in about 538 BC, God revealed the prophecy of Israel's 70 weeks to him in Daniel 9:24-26. "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Israel) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (killed), but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the temple) ...." In this prophecy, the following sequence of events are revealed.

A. There would one day be a commandment to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, which the Babylonians had destroyed years earlier. This was fulfilled in 445 BC by Artaxerxes, king of the Medo-Persian Empire (465-424 BC), nearly a century after the prophecy was given. See Nehemiah 2:1-8 for the account of how Nehemiah asked Artaxerxes for the permission and the means to rebuild the ruins of the city of Jerusalem. In Nehemiah 2:1, we see that this took place "... in the month Nisan (the first month of the Hebrew calendar which occurs in early spring), in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king (445 BC) ...."

B. From the giving of this commandment to the Messiah would be 69 weeks of years (seven plus threescore and two) after which the Messiah would be cut off (killed). This was fulfilled when Jesus Christ was crucified on the 14th day of Nisan (the passover) of 32 AD, right on schedule.

Here is how the calculation of the 69 weeks of years works: Weeks of years are sevens of years, and seven times 69 is 483 years. But we know from the detail of the seventieth week provided in the book of Revelation, that these years are 360 days rather than the years on our present calendar which, figuring in leap years, are approximately 365.25 days. Revelation 12:14 describes the second half of the tribulation as "a time, times, and half a time" (1 + 2 + 1/2 = 3 1/2 years). Revelation 12:6 says this is "a thousand two hundred and threescore (1260) days", and Revelation 13:5 says it is "forty and two months". Since 1260 / 42 = 30 and 1260 / 3.5 = 360, we know that in this prophecy, God is counting months as 30 days each and years as 360 days each. Since the tribulation is a part of the 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, we know that the 360-day years must be used. So to see how many of our years this is, we calculate 483 * (360 / 365.25) = 476 years, 0 months, and a few days. Moving forward from the 445 BC date, this brings us to the early spring of 32 AD (476 - 445 + 1 = 32), when Jesus Christ was crucified. The one must be added to account for the fact that there is no "year 0". The year after 1 BC was 1 AD. The calculation here is somewhat simplified and shows that at a minimum, the prophecy was accurate to within a very few days. Some scholars have used additional evidence for the difficult task of calculating this prophecy to the exact day. To do this, they have to know the day of the month that the commandment of Artaxerxes was given plus the astrological history of moon phases as viewed from Jerusalem, since the months of the Hebrew calendar are based upon observance of the moon phases. As for me, I am more than satisfied to know that the prophecy was accurate to the month 5796 months in advance (12 * 483 = 5796), but readers who are inclined to pursue the more detailed calculation to the exact day are welcome to do so.

Now one might wonder why God didn't use our 365.25-day years in His prophecy? We cannot be certain, but perhaps He was using the same number of days per year that the earth had when He created it. We know from Genesis 7:11 and 8:3-4 that a calendar with 30 day months was used before the great flood. It may be that in the catastrophe of the flood, the earth's rotational speed was increased slightly. One way this could happen would be if the earth's density were increased due to the tremendous seismic activity and the collapse of the water canopy which God used to trigger the flood. Genesis 7:11-12 says, "... all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights." This increase of density would have increased the earth's rotational speed by reducing its moment of inertia in the same way that spinning ice skaters spin faster when they pull their out-stretched arms in closer to their bodies. If the period of the earth's revolution around the sun did not change, then there would be more days per year after the great flood than there were before the flood. Now let's continue to the next event in the sequence of the Daniel 9 prophecy.

C. The people of the prince which is to come will destroy Jerusalem and the temple. This was fulfilled by Titus and the Roman Empire in 70 AD. In the war with the Jews, the Roman army besieged and destroyed Jerusalem, burned the temple, and killed more than one million Jews.

It is interesting to note that when this destruction was prophesied in 538 BC, Jerusalem and temple had not even been rebuilt yet. The part of this prophecy regarding the "prince which is to come" concerns the AntiChrist who must come from the revived Roman Empire in the future tribulation which will be the seventieth week of the prophecy (Daniel 9:27).

There are several amazing things about this prophecy: It accurately predicted the time of Jesus Christ's crucifixion, more than 500 years before it happened. It sandwiched His death between two future events (A and C) which have both been very well documented in history. Both of the events came true even though they were prophesied hundreds of years in advance. When one considers that this prophecy amazingly predicted events A and C above, then believing that it was also correct on event B does not exactly require a leap of faith.

This is no longer debate but argument, accusations which are turning into anger. Refusing to believe in God does not mean you can blaspheme the Lord who millions have accepted as their Savior.
I cannot PROVE to you anything you don't believe in, and I'm sorry that I even tried. It is obvious why you are on this Forum, and many others here, ... the names I will not mention.

It was debate on my side. I was dealing with evidence. You turned it into a question of faith. All it was ever supposed to be was an investigation into whether Jesus qualified as the Messiah described in the Hebrew scriptures. It is still my contention that this is not the case.

Fulfilled Prophecies

The following prophecies concerning Jesus Christ were given in the Old Testament during the time frame of approximately 1700 BC - 400 BC. These prophecies were fulfilled hundreds of years later, during Jesus Christ's life on earth. Each of the prophecies listed below are followed in parentheses by the scripture references for both the prophecy and the fulfillment.

1. He would be born of a Virgin (Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:18).
2. He would be of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 and Luke 3:23, 33).
3. He would be of King David's seed (Jeremiah 23:5 and Luke 3:23, 31).
4. He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2 and Matthew 2:1).
5. He would be a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Matthew 21:11).
6. He would teach with parables (Psalms 78:2 and Matthew 13:34).
7. He would be preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, and Matthew 3:1-2).
8. He would enter Jerusalem on a colt (Zechariah 9:9 and Luke 19:35-37).
9. He would be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9 and Matthew 26:47-50).
10. He would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12 and Matthew 26:15).
11. He would be forsaken by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7 and Mark 14:50).
12. The money would be thrown in the temple and used to buy the potter's field (Zechariah 11:13 and Matthew 27:5-7).
13. He would be accused by false witnesses (Psalms 35:11 and Matthew 26:59-60).
14. He would be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7 and Matthew 27:12-14).
15. He would be beaten by his enemies (Isaiah 50:6, 53:5, and Matthew 27:26).
16. He would be spit upon and beaten (Isaiah 50:6 and Matthew 27:30).
17. He would be struck in the head with a rod (Micah 5:1 and Matthew 27:30).
18. He would be mocked (Psalms 22:7-8 and Matthew 27:29, 31).
19. His hands and feet would be pierced (Psalms 22:16, Luke 23:33, and John 20:25).
Note that this was predicted hundreds of years before crucifixion was invented.
20. Men would gamble for His clothing (Psalms 22:18 and John 19:23-24).
21. He would intercede in prayer for His transgressors (Isaiah 53:12 and Luke 23:34).
22. He would suffer thirst (Psalms 22:15 and John 19:28).
23. He would be offered gall and water (Psalms 69:21 and Matthew 27:34).
24. He would cry, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" (Psalms 22:1 and Matthew 27:46).
25. He would be cut down in His prime (Psalms 89:45 and 102:23-24).
26. None of His bones would be broken (Exodus 12:46, Psalms 34:20, and John 19:32-33).
27. They would look upon Him whom they had pierced (Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:34).
28. He would be executed with thieves (Isaiah 53:12 and Matthew 27:38).
29. He would be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9 and Matthew 27:57-60).

Note that the majority of these prophecies concern the death of Jesus Christ and the events surrounding it. This is especially interesting considering the fact that none of Christ's disciples realized that Jesus Christ was going to die.

In Luke 18:33, Christ, referring to Himself as "the Son of man", told His disciples what would happen to Him, "And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again." That would have been pretty easy to understand, but God hid the saying from their understanding. The next verse, Luke 18:34, says, "And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken."

Despite the fact that Jesus Christ had told them plainly, His disciples still did not realize He was going to die and rise again. The Jews knew from the Old Testament prophecies that the Messiah would be a King that would reign over Israel forever. So they naturally assumed (incorrectly) that the Messiah must never die. Not even His disciples knew about Christ's death, and the Old Testament prophets would have known even less. So there would be no reason for the Old Testament prophets to have written anything about the death of the Messiah, except for the divine hand of God who knew the future. The prophets themselves did not even understand that they were writing of the Messiah's death.

Now we come to two of the most interesting prophecies:

Messiah to come to His temple
The Messiah, being preceded by a messenger (John the Baptist) will suddenly come to His temple. Malachi 3:1 says, "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in ...." The Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, and the temple has not yet been rebuilt in all these 1900 plus years. Many non-Christian Jews have been looking for the Messiah to appear for centuries. But this passage makes it clear that the arrival of the Messiah could not have taken place between 70 AD and the present.

Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks
While the prophet Daniel was captive in Babylon in about 538 BC, God revealed the prophecy of Israel's 70 weeks to him in Daniel 9:24-26. "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Israel) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (killed), but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the temple) ...." In this prophecy, the following sequence of events are revealed.

A. There would one day be a commandment to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, which the Babylonians had destroyed years earlier. This was fulfilled in 445 BC by Artaxerxes, king of the Medo-Persian Empire (465-424 BC), nearly a century after the prophecy was given. See Nehemiah 2:1-8 for the account of how Nehemiah asked Artaxerxes for the permission and the means to rebuild the ruins of the city of Jerusalem. In Nehemiah 2:1, we see that this took place "... in the month Nisan (the first month of the Hebrew calendar which occurs in early spring), in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king (445 BC) ...."

B. From the giving of this commandment to the Messiah would be 69 weeks of years (seven plus threescore and two) after which the Messiah would be cut off (killed). This was fulfilled when Jesus Christ was crucified on the 14th day of Nisan (the passover) of 32 AD, right on schedule.

Here is how the calculation of the 69 weeks of years works: Weeks of years are sevens of years, and seven times 69 is 483 years. But we know from the detail of the seventieth week provided in the book of Revelation, that these years are 360 days rather than the years on our present calendar which, figuring in leap years, are approximately 365.25 days. Revelation 12:14 describes the second half of the tribulation as "a time, times, and half a time" (1 + 2 + 1/2 = 3 1/2 years). Revelation 12:6 says this is "a thousand two hundred and threescore (1260) days", and Revelation 13:5 says it is "forty and two months". Since 1260 / 42 = 30 and 1260 / 3.5 = 360, we know that in this prophecy, God is counting months as 30 days each and years as 360 days each. Since the tribulation is a part of the 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, we know that the 360-day years must be used. So to see how many of our years this is, we calculate 483 * (360 / 365.25) = 476 years, 0 months, and a few days. Moving forward from the 445 BC date, this brings us to the early spring of 32 AD (476 - 445 + 1 = 32), when Jesus Christ was crucified. The one must be added to account for the fact that there is no "year 0". The year after 1 BC was 1 AD. The calculation here is somewhat simplified and shows that at a minimum, the prophecy was accurate to within a very few days. Some scholars have used additional evidence for the difficult task of calculating this prophecy to the exact day. To do this, they have to know the day of the month that the commandment of Artaxerxes was given plus the astrological history of moon phases as viewed from Jerusalem, since the months of the Hebrew calendar are based upon observance of the moon phases. As for me, I am more than satisfied to know that the prophecy was accurate to the month 5796 months in advance (12 * 483 = 5796), but readers who are inclined to pursue the more detailed calculation to the exact day are welcome to do so.

Now one might wonder why God didn't use our 365.25-day years in His prophecy? We cannot be certain, but perhaps He was using the same number of days per year that the earth had when He created it. We know from Genesis 7:11 and 8:3-4 that a calendar with 30 day months was used before the great flood. It may be that in the catastrophe of the flood, the earth's rotational speed was increased slightly. One way this could happen would be if the earth's density were increased due to the tremendous seismic activity and the collapse of the water canopy which God used to trigger the flood. Genesis 7:11-12 says, "... all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights." This increase of density would have increased the earth's rotational speed by reducing its moment of inertia in the same way that spinning ice skaters spin faster when they pull their out-stretched arms in closer to their bodies. If the period of the earth's revolution around the sun did not change, then there would be more days per year after the great flood than there were before the flood. Now let's continue to the next event in the sequence of the Daniel 9 prophecy.

C. The people of the prince which is to come will destroy Jerusalem and the temple. This was fulfilled by Titus and the Roman Empire in 70 AD. In the war with the Jews, the Roman army besieged and destroyed Jerusalem, burned the temple, and killed more than one million Jews.

It is interesting to note that when this destruction was prophesied in 538 BC, Jerusalem and temple had not even been rebuilt yet. The part of this prophecy regarding the "prince which is to come" concerns the AntiChrist who must come from the revived Roman Empire in the future tribulation which will be the seventieth week of the prophecy (Daniel 9:27).

There are several amazing things about this prophecy: It accurately predicted the time of Jesus Christ's crucifixion, more than 500 years before it happened. It sandwiched His death between two future events (A and C) which have both been very well documented in history. Both of the events came true even though they were prophesied hundreds of years in advance. When one considers that this prophecy amazingly predicted events A and C above, then believing that it was also correct on event B does not exactly require a leap of faith.

I am on this forum to debate/discuss religion, especially Christianity, because of its influence on history. Understanding the forces that formed the various religions is an essential part of that. you are assuming an Us vs. Them scenario. Not in my case.

Read the Bible and show me where it is NOT the 'us' vs 'them', where it's not; God and His People vs the enemies of His People?

You can prove things to me by presenting good evidence that supports a good argument. I did not see that.

Fulfilled Prophecies

The following prophecies concerning Jesus Christ were given in the Old Testament during the time frame of approximately 1700 BC - 400 BC. These prophecies were fulfilled hundreds of years later, during Jesus Christ's life on earth. Each of the prophecies listed below are followed in parentheses by the scripture references for both the prophecy and the fulfillment.

1. He would be born of a Virgin (Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:18).
2. He would be of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 and Luke 3:23, 33).
3. He would be of King David's seed (Jeremiah 23:5 and Luke 3:23, 31).
4. He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2 and Matthew 2:1).
5. He would be a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Matthew 21:11).
6. He would teach with parables (Psalms 78:2 and Matthew 13:34).
7. He would be preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, and Matthew 3:1-2).
8. He would enter Jerusalem on a colt (Zechariah 9:9 and Luke 19:35-37).
9. He would be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9 and Matthew 26:47-50).
10. He would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12 and Matthew 26:15).
11. He would be forsaken by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7 and Mark 14:50).
12. The money would be thrown in the temple and used to buy the potter's field (Zechariah 11:13 and Matthew 27:5-7).
13. He would be accused by false witnesses (Psalms 35:11 and Matthew 26:59-60).
14. He would be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7 and Matthew 27:12-14).
15. He would be beaten by his enemies (Isaiah 50:6, 53:5, and Matthew 27:26).
16. He would be spit upon and beaten (Isaiah 50:6 and Matthew 27:30).
17. He would be struck in the head with a rod (Micah 5:1 and Matthew 27:30).
18. He would be mocked (Psalms 22:7-8 and Matthew 27:29, 31).
19. His hands and feet would be pierced (Psalms 22:16, Luke 23:33, and John 20:25).
Note that this was predicted hundreds of years before crucifixion was invented.
20. Men would gamble for His clothing (Psalms 22:18 and John 19:23-24).
21. He would intercede in prayer for His transgressors (Isaiah 53:12 and Luke 23:34).
22. He would suffer thirst (Psalms 22:15 and John 19:28).
23. He would be offered gall and water (Psalms 69:21 and Matthew 27:34).
24. He would cry, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" (Psalms 22:1 and Matthew 27:46).
25. He would be cut down in His prime (Psalms 89:45 and 102:23-24).
26. None of His bones would be broken (Exodus 12:46, Psalms 34:20, and John 19:32-33).
27. They would look upon Him whom they had pierced (Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:34).
28. He would be executed with thieves (Isaiah 53:12 and Matthew 27:38).
29. He would be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9 and Matthew 27:57-60).

Note that the majority of these prophecies concern the death of Jesus Christ and the events surrounding it. This is especially interesting considering the fact that none of Christ's disciples realized that Jesus Christ was going to die.

In Luke 18:33, Christ, referring to Himself as "the Son of man", told His disciples what would happen to Him, "And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again." That would have been pretty easy to understand, but God hid the saying from their understanding. The next verse, Luke 18:34, says, "And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken."

Despite the fact that Jesus Christ had told them plainly, His disciples still did not realize He was going to die and rise again. The Jews knew from the Old Testament prophecies that the Messiah would be a King that would reign over Israel forever. So they naturally assumed (incorrectly) that the Messiah must never die. Not even His disciples knew about Christ's death, and the Old Testament prophets would have known even less. So there would be no reason for the Old Testament prophets to have written anything about the death of the Messiah, except for the divine hand of God who knew the future. The prophets themselves did not even understand that they were writing of the Messiah's death.

Now we come to two of the most interesting prophecies:

Messiah to come to His temple
The Messiah, being preceded by a messenger (John the Baptist) will suddenly come to His temple. Malachi 3:1 says, "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in ...." The Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, and the temple has not yet been rebuilt in all these 1900 plus years. Many non-Christian Jews have been looking for the Messiah to appear for centuries. But this passage makes it clear that the arrival of the Messiah could not have taken place between 70 AD and the present.

Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks
While the prophet Daniel was captive in Babylon in about 538 BC, God revealed the prophecy of Israel's 70 weeks to him in Daniel 9:24-26. "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Israel) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (killed), but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the temple) ...." In this prophecy, the following sequence of events are revealed.

A. There would one day be a commandment to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, which the Babylonians had destroyed years earlier. This was fulfilled in 445 BC by Artaxerxes, king of the Medo-Persian Empire (465-424 BC), nearly a century after the prophecy was given. See Nehemiah 2:1-8 for the account of how Nehemiah asked Artaxerxes for the permission and the means to rebuild the ruins of the city of Jerusalem. In Nehemiah 2:1, we see that this took place "... in the month Nisan (the first month of the Hebrew calendar which occurs in early spring), in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king (445 BC) ...."

B. From the giving of this commandment to the Messiah would be 69 weeks of years (seven plus threescore and two) after which the Messiah would be cut off (killed). This was fulfilled when Jesus Christ was crucified on the 14th day of Nisan (the passover) of 32 AD, right on schedule.

Here is how the calculation of the 69 weeks of years works: Weeks of years are sevens of years, and seven times 69 is 483 years. But we know from the detail of the seventieth week provided in the book of Revelation, that these years are 360 days rather than the years on our present calendar which, figuring in leap years, are approximately 365.25 days. Revelation 12:14 describes the second half of the tribulation as "a time, times, and half a time" (1 + 2 + 1/2 = 3 1/2 years). Revelation 12:6 says this is "a thousand two hundred and threescore (1260) days", and Revelation 13:5 says it is "forty and two months". Since 1260 / 42 = 30 and 1260 / 3.5 = 360, we know that in this prophecy, God is counting months as 30 days each and years as 360 days each. Since the tribulation is a part of the 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, we know that the 360-day years must be used. So to see how many of our years this is, we calculate 483 * (360 / 365.25) = 476 years, 0 months, and a few days. Moving forward from the 445 BC date, this brings us to the early spring of 32 AD (476 - 445 + 1 = 32), when Jesus Christ was crucified. The one must be added to account for the fact that there is no "year 0". The year after 1 BC was 1 AD. The calculation here is somewhat simplified and shows that at a minimum, the prophecy was accurate to within a very few days. Some scholars have used additional evidence for the difficult task of calculating this prophecy to the exact day. To do this, they have to know the day of the month that the commandment of Artaxerxes was given plus the astrological history of moon phases as viewed from Jerusalem, since the months of the Hebrew calendar are based upon observance of the moon phases. As for me, I am more than satisfied to know that the prophecy was accurate to the month 5796 months in advance (12 * 483 = 5796), but readers who are inclined to pursue the more detailed calculation to the exact day are welcome to do so.

Now one might wonder why God didn't use our 365.25-day years in His prophecy? We cannot be certain, but perhaps He was using the same number of days per year that the earth had when He created it. We know from Genesis 7:11 and 8:3-4 that a calendar with 30 day months was used before the great flood. It may be that in the catastrophe of the flood, the earth's rotational speed was increased slightly. One way this could happen would be if the earth's density were increased due to the tremendous seismic activity and the collapse of the water canopy which God used to trigger the flood. Genesis 7:11-12 says, "... all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights." This increase of density would have increased the earth's rotational speed by reducing its moment of inertia in the same way that spinning ice skaters spin faster when they pull their out-stretched arms in closer to their bodies. If the period of the earth's revolution around the sun did not change, then there would be more days per year after the great flood than there were before the flood. Now let's continue to the next event in the sequence of the Daniel 9 prophecy.

C. The people of the prince which is to come will destroy Jerusalem and the temple. This was fulfilled by Titus and the Roman Empire in 70 AD. In the war with the Jews, the Roman army besieged and destroyed Jerusalem, burned the temple, and killed more than one million Jews.

It is interesting to note that when this destruction was prophesied in 538 BC, Jerusalem and temple had not even been rebuilt yet. The part of this prophecy regarding the "prince which is to come" concerns the AntiChrist who must come from the revived Roman Empire in the future tribulation which will be the seventieth week of the prophecy (Daniel 9:27).

There are several amazing things about this prophecy: It accurately predicted the time of Jesus Christ's crucifixion, more than 500 years before it happened. It sandwiched His death between two future events (A and C) which have both been very well documented in history. Both of the events came true even though they were prophesied hundreds of years in advance. When one considers that this prophecy amazingly predicted events A and C above, then believing that it was also correct on event B does not exactly require a leap of faith.

It would appear that you are not going to take seriously any evidence or argumentation I offer, considering anything other than your preconceived notions as blasphemy, so I am not bothering anymore.

Thank you.

No anger on my part, just a desire to conserve time and energy for more productive use.

Energy towards something more productive? What would that be, towards those whose faith could be shaken? I guess it is useless energy and a waste of time to bang ones head against a rock, ... for on the Jewish Christ that solid 'Rock' I stand, and all other ground is sinking sand.

You want facts, ... but what is fact if you cannot believe in them? It all ends in 'faith' which is being sure of what we hope for, and certain in what we cannot see.

IMO I believe that you are here as many others here who oppose the Messiah, to bring in that New World Order, to finalize plans like "Agenda 21", the 'Venus Project', the 'Beyond Utopia' belief through a dehumanizing religion called the 'Big Bang Evolution Theory'.

And of course it is here, and everyone of us will taste of it, for a short while before as described by this 'Agenda 21' "all but 5% of humans would be wiped of the face of this earth." all this in order to preserve 'life' on this planet LOL I thought humans were considered 'life', ... but I guess this is why the Evolution Theory teaches that humans are neither animals nor humans, thus I guess they must be wiped off the face of the earth leaving room only for animals (the greatest of these are the ones who proposed this 'wild' idea)

[cnorman18]

Here are the facts on "Agenda 21" -- and here is the document itself.

[99percentatheism]

Preamble
23.1. Critical to the effective implementation of the objectives, policies and mechanisms agreed to by Governments in all programme areas of Agenda 21 will be the commitment and genuine involvement of all social groups.

23.2. One of the fundamental prerequisites for the achievement of sustainable development is broad public participation in decision-making. Furthermore, in the more specific context of environment and development, the need for new forms of participation has emerged. This includes the need of individuals, groups and organizations to participate in environmental impact assessment procedures and to know about and participate in decisions, particularly those which potentially affect the communities in which they live and work. Individuals, groups and organizations should have access to information relevant to environment and development held by national authorities, including information on products and activities that have or are likely to have a significant impact on the environment, and information on environmental protection measures.

23.3. Any policies, definitions or rules affecting access to and participation by non-governmental organizations in the work of United Nations institutions or agencies associated with the implementation of Agenda 21 must apply equally to all major groups.

23.4. The programme areas set out below address the means for moving towards real social partnership in support of common efforts for sustainable development.

I've never cared even th sligtest about "One World Government" and "End Times" fears . . . but the preamble in the UN's declaration about Project 21 looks to be thedemands for a Marxist/Communist utopia that many indicate that it is.

Certainly a "mark" to identify us all for UN compliance is not too far fetched.

Oh, the OP?

That answer is yes. Jesus can only be the Messiah of the Hebrew Bible.