Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

[arian]

[font=Verdana][/font]
Greetings to all.

Goat wrote....post278
As for Jesus being dead. People die, and the longest anyone is known to have lived that is verified to have ever lived is 122 years 164 days... Jesus is supposed to have lived about 2000 years ago. Therefore, if he lived at all, considering the time frame, he's now dead. Can you show otherwise without resorting to religious material that can not be shown to be true?

How old was Adam when he died?
How old was Noah when he died?
Its quite obvious the difficulty you are having in proving that Jesus died.

The following is a quote from the Babylonian Talmud:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! -Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 43a

As we can see the claim he was hanged and if he was hanged then he died.If his death cannot be proven then this book is in doubt(false).

Nickman i am working on your questions.To those that ask me questions that does not relate to this subject i ignore.Those that make false allegations against me i ignore.Those that ask questions that lead to argumental debate i ignore.The only way forward is through intellectual reasoning.

May peace and blessings be upon Jesus,his mother Mary and all mentioned Prophets.
May you all have a peaceful day.

Did Adam even exist?? I mean, it's a story in a book, and we have no reason to think it is other than a story. Because of the name, we have every reason to think that it is an allegory, and was MEANT to be an allegory. Ha-adam, means 'The Man'.

And 'wo-man' means 'from-man', ... so did 'The Man' exist? I know the hardship 'The Man' is causing me as we speak, so he must exist.

A book explains who Adam was, ... so you doubt the book not that Adam existed or not? Is the book valid? Do people find answers in there for their lives? Would a book on Evolution of the species suffice those same everyday questions we have?

If man evolved from single celled bacteria, why would any book, on any subject written by anyone be counted more than an allegory?

Did Noah exist?? It is a story in a book, and we have no reason to think it is other than a story.

It seems to me that you are having a great deal of difficulty to show that Jesus of Nazareth even existed.

Did Abraham Lincoln exist? Maybe it too is only a story in a book, and we have no reason to think it is other than a story??

[arian]

Jeremiah is one example of what the Messiah was expected to do.

Thank you so much ThatGirlAgain...

Yes, this happened many times in the past for the Children of Israel, all pointing to that coming 'Eternal Kingdom' that will descend from Heaven with Christ's second coming. All those that have been born again in the Spirit shall enter in, but the wicked, the greedy, the adulterers, homosexuals and all those that practice witchcraft and magic will be cast out into eternal darkness.

First God shows us over and over again that He holds on to His part of His promise, as if He says; "See, I told you I can do it, and look, once again I brought you together (I'm referring now to this last gathering of Israel) NOT because you have turned to Me, not because your deeds are righteous, in fact your clothes are red as scarlet, like filthy rags, ... but because of my promise! Now take of the blood that I sacrificed for you, the perfect Lamb my dear Son and it will wash you and make your robes as white as snow!"

Can you find any OT reference to the Messiah coming twice? If so, what was the purpose of that as supported by OT references? The Messiah was supposed to come and bring the Kingdom. The Messiah came " no Kingdom. Oh, the Messiah will handle that the next time?

'One will come and establish a Kingdom that shall never pass away...', is that something that makes sense to the physical mind?

The Kingdom is here ThatGirlAgain, it is an Everlasting Kingdom that Jesus brought, only nothing that this here physical body could enjoy, it is all in the spirit that we enter in with our heart, soul and minds, it is really here, ... the body means nothing and no matter no matter how bad things may get for us, we get to be joyful in a place of even the worst physical misery (I know this first hand).

Look, ... I would sometimes hear friends (unbelievers, atheists etc..) after putting their kids to bed tell them bedtime stories of a kingdom far, far away, with unicorns, and elves living in peace in a world free from all evil, where only good witches rule ... and so on... and the kids actually believe and even dream sometime of these fairy places. Why do we do this to our kids if we know there is no truth behind it?
Or is there? Maybe there is truth behind it all, ... only 'the names of people and places have been changed'???

Our Old Testament Prophets told us of these things coming, but they did not comprehend it yet, just as Abraham couldn't comprehend being a 'Father of many nations' before he even had a kid yet? But when the Angel told him he will have a son, even though both him and Sarah were way beyond child baring years, he 'Believed' and was counted as righteousness for him.
This Kingdom is here just as all the Children of Abraham, billions of them have walked the earth (as many as the sand of the sea-metaphorically speaking)

The second coming of Christ could not have been known either in the Old Testament, Jesus explained this to us when He was here. it was hidden from them in the Old Testament, ... the whole thing was done in a humble, beyond human imagination setting to keep the proud Satan unaware, being fulfilled as it happened. He was expecting the Christ to appear in all His Glory, with power and might he himself would have come with and not the way Jesus appeared, not to royalty, but to a simple girl betrothed to a simple carpenter. This was all because as the NT explains, ... "would they have known, they would not have crucified Him."

Amos expresses it in more apocalyptic terms



It is Daniel that is being referred to when Jesus is called the Son of Man and the imminent end of days is described in the Synoptic Gospels.

Daniel 7
13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Can't get any clearer than that of the Christ ruling; "everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed

That is a messianic prophecy. What associates it with Jesus except more prophecies? And we might note that the prophecy based on Daniel that appears in the Synoptic Gospels did not get fulfilled.

First Jesus says that some of the people listening to him will not die until they see the Son of Man come with angels to judge everyone.

No, ... it says that some standing here will see that Kingdom descending, ... and they did, with their spiritual eyes at Pentecost.

Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.

And he said to them, Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.

We walk in the spirit in that Spiritual Kingdom, being born OF the spirit.... Its a little like the story unbelieving mothers tell their kids at bedtime, only this is more real, ... more real than the physical world around us passing away, people dying etc..

Its all there revealed in science, ... only the reality of the answers to what we observe has been distorted by lies and theories of people pretending to be scientists, like the Theory of Evolution and the Big Bang Theory. This has given the way to make children's bedtime stories more believable than the fact of an obvious awesome Creator.

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 8:38-9:1 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Fathers glory with the holy angels.
And he said to them, Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.

Luke 9:26-27 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.

Then Jesus links the coming of the Son of Man to the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem and its population.

Matthew 23:35-36
[Speaking to the Pharisees]
And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

Matthew 24:1-2
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

Matthew 24:15-16
So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel"let the reader understand " then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

[Descriptions of destruction and woe]

Matthew 24:29-34
29 Immediately after the distress of those days

the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

(Very similar language in Mark and Luke, except Luke mentions Jerusalem surrounded by armies, exactly as happened in 70 CE.)

The holy place would be understood by contemporaries as the Temple, destroyed in 70 CE. This sign must happen before that.

It really is an honor to debate with you ThatGirlAgain, you notice things, AND youre smart. I have seen very smart people walk around without noticing a thing happening in this world, especially whether or not Prophesies of the Bible are being fulfilled.

Things you mentioned happened, AND are happening, ... worse and worse, ... bigger and more of it to wake up as many as God can to the reality, and to as many generations as possible. Remember that there is no time in that Eternal Spiritual Kingdom, yet on this earth the time flies by like crazy (I for one thank God for that). Taking what Jesus said purely in the physical sense will not make sense, ... or not a complete sense, but partial, the physical part only and the rest of the meaning completely ignored. We are to be born again, meaning the Temple moves from the building into the human body as it is written; Dont you know you are the Temple of God, ... and if anyone destroys this Temple, ... him God will destroy? (Im paraphrasing here)

Note the interjected language let the reader understand. Jesus did not say that. The author put that in. Why? Because it was something that his readers would recognize. Otherwise how could they understand it? A likely candidate is Caligula trying to put his statue in the Temple in 45 CE, which resulted in massive riots in Jerusalem.

It was very clearly the terrible Jewish War and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple being referenced. This is confirmed by Jesus saying that these things would happen before this generation passed away. This connects with his prior assertion that some of the people hearing his voice would still be alive when it happened.

But immediately after.nothing happened! No Son of Man in the clouds, no angels, no gathering of the elect. Tying the prophecy of Daniel into Jesus simply does not work.

No it doesnt work within the Old Testament physical sense, we must be born again, ... or start thinking, ... envisioning things more on the Spiritual realm, in that spiritual body (there is the physical, ... and there is the Spiritual... remember?) is the clue to understanding the End Days Prophesies.

The Temple was destroyed exactly as Jesus predicted and many standing there listening to Jesus witnessed this. After that came more and bigger tribulations all the way to WWII and the once again the extermination of our fellow Jews, ... more and more earthquakes and so on, ... and then will come;

Matthew 24:29-34
29 Immediately after the distress of those days

the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

Lets fast forward throughout history to the final birth-pangs, where things happen more often and more intensely, and if blowing cities like Hiroshima and Nagasaki in matter of minutes isnt more intense, then what is? The above verses describe the final chapter, where sin reaches to such an intense state that the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Sin causes all these destruction because our sins effect the entire universe, including the whether (more earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes etc.), more and more meteors (shooting stars, or stars falling from heaven) will hit the earth, ... to where planets will move out of their orbits (heavenly bodies shaken) ... to that epoch when the final chapter to Satans rule of this physical realm will end, and THEN;

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This is immediately after the Last Trumpet sounds, after all the tribulations, and only THEN comes the rapture (not before all the tribulation as the Christian religions would like to believe) ... and those that have been born of the spirit, or have been born again and have lived/fought for that Eternal Kingdom, to them Jesus will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other, and in a blink of an eye shall be changed, be given Spiritual Bodies and rule with Christ our King forever.

27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.


The Gospels go to great lengths to identify Jesus as the Messiah via (allegedly) identifying references in the Hebrew scriptures.

It fits perfectly, Jesus rules over all peoples and nations with His chosen (those who chose Him as King) in an everlasting Kingdom, ... why do you see another person that would fit better? I would love to hear it?

I do not see it fitting at all. Where is this Kingdom? It was supposed to happen very quickly. It did not.

As I described from the Bible, ... it did, only not in the physical sense. A New Kingdom under Christ's rule has arrived at Pentecost, and the Bible says that it is not something we could observe with our physical senses, but we can see it and enter in and out if we are born again in the newness of mind. We are at war against ideas, doctrines, theories and principalities created by the powers of darkness through a long history of divinations through their willing mediums; priests, teachers of the occult, rulers and worldly idols.

But the big time expectation, the institution of the messianic age, is pushed into the future.

It is not something we can see with these physical eyes, the Kingdom is here in the Spirit, in us in our hearts souls and minds just as it was prophesied would be. But at His second coming when we are changed in a blink of an eye, from this corruptible to that incorruptible, we shall see it and dwell with Christ in that everlasting Kingdom forever and ever.

According to the Gospels (see above), it was supposed to be a dramatic unmistakable event. All the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. (Matt 24) If the Kingdom is something that happened already, then the prophecy of a Second Coming to establish this Kingdom is wrong. But we already know that. It was supposed to happen quickly but it did not.

As I said; It Did happen, and with Power, only not to those who were waiting for a physical kingdom. To them it seemed as the believers were drunk, until they all heard them speak their own language, and seen them heal the sick, raise the dead and so on. But even this they could not comprehend.
Jesus was and IS the King of this here New Spiritual Kingdom where we believers walk in and out from. In when we are in the spirit, and out when we preach to the world, ... where we (our physical body only) face danger, pain and suffering from those that hate us and our message. If they kill us, ... hey so be it, as Paul said; Id much rather be with the Lord, ... but for the few that might yet be saved, ... we stay and continue to bare persecutions.

The failure to fulfill this prophecy led to some clever explanations later on. Acts replaces the Second Coming with the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. John says that expectation was just a mistake.

John 21

[Jesus speaking to Peter]

18 Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go. 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, Follow me!

20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, Lord, who is going to betray you?) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, Lord, what about him?

22 Jesus answered, If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me. 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?

24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

John 20 appears to be the original ending of the Gospel of John. John 21 refers to the author in the third person. There is a clear implication. John, a very old man by now and the last hearer of the words of Jesus, has now died. The not taste death and this generation shall not pass away prophecies are wrong.

No, ... John seen that Kingdom descending (after Jesus was resurrected and ascended to Heaven), at Pentecost, as did multitudes of others, just as Jesus promised he would.

You see this New Spiritual Kingdom is here, but so is this earthly kingdom for now, the Spiritual Kingdom is for those who walk according to the Spirit, not according to the flesh. Unless we are Born Again, ... in no wise will we enter that Kingdom

This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, an initiation into that New Kingdom, which as we can see Satan so desperately wants to imitate with his; New World order, or Beyond Utopia, .. or ideas like being one with the universe, etc.. and so on. He too has baptized his followers in the Trinity Doctrine, and left his mark on the hands and foreheads with that un-holy water blessed by a man (priests, Pope) as they baptize babies, and the rest who are baptized in the Trinity, that false three that bare witness in the supernatural realm (which you pointed out a while back, that it was not even in the original text) I truly believe that the mark of the devil is the Trinity Doctrine symbolized by a triangle with 60-60-60 degree angles representing the father, the son, and the spirit, each an individual divine being.

In conclusion,

1. the New Spiritual Kingdom is here, and Jesus is its King, but only those 'born again' in the 'newness of mind' can see/understand it and fight to defend it against the ruling powers of darkness and their principalities still here in this world.

2. Jesus will come soon with Power and might, with His Angels and those who have died for the Lord will be risen first, then we who are still alive will be taken up to meet Him. As we are being taken up, we will be changed in a blink of an eye, from this corruptible to the incorruptible and will continue to descend with Jesus and the Angels to judge the earth, to be witnesses against those we personally called and preached the truth to. Here is where all that nations who have not accepted the truth will run and hide and 'call upon the mountains to fall upon them to hide them from the Judge, the King of kings.'

3. Then after each man is heard out, and all the witnesses for and against them heard, a 'decision' will be made according to their deeds, and will get what they have earned. They will not be judged, but get what they earned. The judgement is now, those who refuse to accept Jesus as their King have already chosen Satan, that dragon to be their king and serve him loyally, so the judgment is already made by their 'choice' The Bible is clear; He that does not 'confess that Jesus is the Son of God' and served Him as their King shall be cast into hell, that lake of fire prepared for Satan and his angels. Their deeds will follow them, and determine the level of darkness they will have to spend their eternity in. Now there without Christ, away from the presence of God they will live according to what they have earned. If they chose to believe in evolution, or the Big Bang theory, ... they get to wait for that BB to happen, that Gravitational Singularity, that Event Horizon or whatever they have chosen as their creator and become one with that universe.

So people, I pray you don't place your 'eternal life' on a theory, or some man-made-doctrine, but better be sure of what you hope for and certain of what you cannot see!

'Heaven is a gift, but hell is earned' and all those who have rejected the 'gift (which is Christ)' shall be cast into hell. "He that denies me before man, I shall deny before my Father in Heaven"

4. This physical universe will be burnt up along with everything in it, even the elements will burn up, and a New Earth and New Heaven that have been prepared for us will be revealed, ... and there in the 'presents' of God, with Jesus as King we shall spend eternity, creating and living in peace forever and ever, as one mind with God.

Jesus IS the Messiah of the Hebrew Bible.

[ThatGirlAgain]

Jeremiah is one example of what the Messiah was expected to do.

Thank you so much ThatGirlAgain...

Yes, this happened many times in the past for the Children of Israel, all pointing to that coming 'Eternal Kingdom' that will descend from Heaven with Christ's second coming. All those that have been born again in the Spirit shall enter in, but the wicked, the greedy, the adulterers, homosexuals and all those that practice witchcraft and magic will be cast out into eternal darkness.

First God shows us over and over again that He holds on to His part of His promise, as if He says; "See, I told you I can do it, and look, once again I brought you together (I'm referring now to this last gathering of Israel) NOT because you have turned to Me, not because your deeds are righteous, in fact your clothes are red as scarlet, like filthy rags, ... but because of my promise! Now take of the blood that I sacrificed for you, the perfect Lamb my dear Son and it will wash you and make your robes as white as snow!"

Can you find any OT reference to the Messiah coming twice? If so, what was the purpose of that as supported by OT references? The Messiah was supposed to come and bring the Kingdom. The Messiah came " no Kingdom. Oh, the Messiah will handle that the next time?

'One will come and establish a Kingdom that shall never pass away...', is that something that makes sense to the physical mind?

The Kingdom is here ThatGirlAgain, it is an Everlasting Kingdom that Jesus brought, only nothing that this here physical body could enjoy, it is all in the spirit that we enter in with our heart, soul and minds, it is really here, ... the body means nothing and no matter no matter how bad things may get for us, we get to be joyful in a place of even the worst physical misery (I know this first hand).

Look, ... I would sometimes hear friends (unbelievers, atheists etc..) after putting their kids to bed tell them bedtime stories of a kingdom far, far away, with unicorns, and elves living in peace in a world free from all evil, where only good witches rule ... and so on... and the kids actually believe and even dream sometime of these fairy places. Why do we do this to our kids if we know there is no truth behind it?
Or is there? Maybe there is truth behind it all, ... only 'the names of people and places have been changed'???

Our Old Testament Prophets told us of these things coming, but they did not comprehend it yet, just as Abraham couldn't comprehend being a 'Father of many nations' before he even had a kid yet? But when the Angel told him he will have a son, even though both him and Sarah were way beyond child baring years, he 'Believed' and was counted as righteousness for him.
This Kingdom is here just as all the Children of Abraham, billions of them have walked the earth (as many as the sand of the sea-metaphorically speaking)

The second coming of Christ could not have been known either in the Old Testament, Jesus explained this to us when He was here. it was hidden from them in the Old Testament, ... the whole thing was done in a humble, beyond human imagination setting to keep the proud Satan unaware, being fulfilled as it happened. He was expecting the Christ to appear in all His Glory, with power and might he himself would have come with and not the way Jesus appeared, not to royalty, but to a simple girl betrothed to a simple carpenter. This was all because as the NT explains, ... "would they have known, they would not have crucified Him."

But it still amounts to there being no prophecy about what did happen and the prophecy about what was supposed to happen unfulfilled. I do not see how this supports the notion that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, which is what this thread is all about. In fact I do not see how it amounts to anything more than a less than credible excuse for the wrong thing happening. It seems that it would give Satan the idea that this Jesus guy was a fake and that God is powerless, thereby encouraging Satan to really go to town on world domination. Of course that is assuming that the Satan character is really as portrayed in the NT. The OT Satan is much different, more of a devils advocate ( 0) than the personification of evil. Any recourse to the reconstructed Satan as an element in demonstrating Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah is not going to work.

Amos expresses it in more apocalyptic terms



It is Daniel that is being referred to when Jesus is called the Son of Man and the imminent end of days is described in the Synoptic Gospels.

Daniel 7
13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Can't get any clearer than that of the Christ ruling; "everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed

That is a messianic prophecy. What associates it with Jesus except more prophecies? And we might note that the prophecy based on Daniel that appears in the Synoptic Gospels did not get fulfilled.

First Jesus says that some of the people listening to him will not die until they see the Son of Man come with angels to judge everyone.

No, ... it says that some standing here will see that Kingdom descending, ... and they did, with their spiritual eyes at Pentecost.

Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.

And he said to them, Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.

We walk in the spirit in that Spiritual Kingdom, being born OF the spirit.... Its a little like the story unbelieving mothers tell their kids at bedtime, only this is more real, ... more real than the physical world around us passing away, people dying etc..

Its all there revealed in science, ... only the reality of the answers to what we observe has been distorted by lies and theories of people pretending to be scientists, like the Theory of Evolution and the Big Bang Theory. This has given the way to make children's bedtime stories more believable than the fact of an obvious awesome Creator.

This invisible Spiritual Kingdom is not at all what was prophesized. Again it sounds like something made up to cover up the fact that the actual prophecies did not come true.

If you want to discuss the Big Bang or Evolution, go to the appropriate forum. I will only discuss it here to the extent that the alternative to the Big Bang is that the universe always existed and there is no creator. Never quite grasped why theists might be opposed to the Big Bang.

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 8:38-9:1 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Fathers glory with the holy angels.
And he said to them, Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.

Luke 9:26-27 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.

Then Jesus links the coming of the Son of Man to the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem and its population.

Matthew 23:35-36
[Speaking to the Pharisees]
And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

Matthew 24:1-2
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

Matthew 24:15-16
So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel"let the reader understand " then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

[Descriptions of destruction and woe]

Matthew 24:29-34
29 Immediately after the distress of those days

the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

(Very similar language in Mark and Luke, except Luke mentions Jerusalem surrounded by armies, exactly as happened in 70 CE.)

The holy place would be understood by contemporaries as the Temple, destroyed in 70 CE. This sign must happen before that.

It really is an honor to debate with you ThatGirlAgain, you notice things, AND youre smart. I have seen very smart people walk around without noticing a thing happening in this world, especially whether or not Prophesies of the Bible are being fulfilled.

Things you mentioned happened, AND are happening, ... worse and worse, ... bigger and more of it to wake up as many as God can to the reality, and to as many generations as possible. Remember that there is no time in that Eternal Spiritual Kingdom, yet on this earth the time flies by like crazy (I for one thank God for that). Taking what Jesus said purely in the physical sense will not make sense, ... or not a complete sense, but partial, the physical part only and the rest of the meaning completely ignored. We are to be born again, meaning the Temple moves from the building into the human body as it is written; Dont you know you are the Temple of God, ... and if anyone destroys this Temple, ... him God will destroy? (Im paraphrasing here)

The destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem happened. But they were supposed to be followed very quickly by the Second Coming. Did not happen. By the time that John and Acts were written this had become painfully obvious and other excuses were needed. John has it become a misunderstanding that it would happen quickly despite the very explicit language of the Synoptic Gospels and the clear expectation of Paul. Acts changes it from Jesus returning to the Holy Spirit, again despite explicit language in the Synoptics and Paul about an imminent return of Jesus and a universal judgment.

Not only do the OT prophecies fall flat. So do the NT ones.

Note the interjected language let the reader understand. Jesus did not say that. The author put that in. Why? Because it was something that his readers would recognize. Otherwise how could they understand it? A likely candidate is Caligula trying to put his statue in the Temple in 45 CE, which resulted in massive riots in Jerusalem.

It was very clearly the terrible Jewish War and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple being referenced. This is confirmed by Jesus saying that these things would happen before this generation passed away. This connects with his prior assertion that some of the people hearing his voice would still be alive when it happened.

But immediately after.nothing happened! No Son of Man in the clouds, no angels, no gathering of the elect. Tying the prophecy of Daniel into Jesus simply does not work.

No it doesnt work within the Old Testament physical sense, we must be born again, ... or start thinking, ... envisioning things more on the Spiritual realm, in that spiritual body (there is the physical, ... and there is the Spiritual... remember?) is the clue to understanding the End Days Prophesies.

The Temple was destroyed exactly as Jesus predicted and many standing there listening to Jesus witnessed this. After that came more and bigger tribulations all the way to WWII and the once again the extermination of our fellow Jews, ... more and more earthquakes and so on, ... and then will come;

Matthew 24:29-34
29 Immediately after the distress of those days

the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

Lets fast forward throughout history to the final birth-pangs, where things happen more often and more intensely, and if blowing cities like Hiroshima and Nagasaki in matter of minutes isnt more intense, then what is? The above verses describe the final chapter, where sin reaches to such an intense state that the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Sin causes all these destruction because our sins effect the entire universe, including the whether (more earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes etc.), more and more meteors (shooting stars, or stars falling from heaven) will hit the earth, ... to where planets will move out of their orbits (heavenly bodies shaken) ... to that epoch when the final chapter to Satans rule of this physical realm will end, and THEN;

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This is immediately after the Last Trumpet sounds, after all the tribulations, and only THEN comes the rapture (not before all the tribulation as the Christian religions would like to believe) ... and those that have been born of the spirit, or have been born again and have lived/fought for that Eternal Kingdom, to them Jesus will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other, and in a blink of an eye shall be changed, be given Spiritual Bodies and rule with Christ our King forever.

The Synoptic Gospels clearly reference the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and state that these will happen in the current generation before all those who heard the words of Jesus were dead. Then immediately after Jesus was supposed to return in the sky with angels and judge everyone. Did not happen. Pushing it into the future is a clear contradiction of this prophecy. Revelation even starts off saying that the time is near for the end of the world and it must soon take place. Did not happen.

27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.


The Gospels go to great lengths to identify Jesus as the Messiah via (allegedly) identifying references in the Hebrew scriptures.

It fits perfectly, Jesus rules over all peoples and nations with His chosen (those who chose Him as King) in an everlasting Kingdom, ... why do you see another person that would fit better? I would love to hear it?

I do not see it fitting at all. Where is this Kingdom? It was supposed to happen very quickly. It did not.

As I described from the Bible, ... it did, only not in the physical sense. A New Kingdom under Christ's rule has arrived at Pentecost, and the Bible says that it is not something we could observe with our physical senses, but we can see it and enter in and out if we are born again in the newness of mind. We are at war against ideas, doctrines, theories and principalities created by the powers of darkness through a long history of divinations through their willing mediums; priests, teachers of the occult, rulers and worldly idols.

The Pentecost story is at variance not only with the clear expectations set forth in the OT prophecies, it even is at variance with the explicit NT prophecies. This invisible Kingdom sounds a whole lot like another cover story for prophecies not happening.

But the big time expectation, the institution of the messianic age, is pushed into the future.

It is not something we can see with these physical eyes, the Kingdom is here in the Spirit, in us in our hearts souls and minds just as it was prophesied would be. But at His second coming when we are changed in a blink of an eye, from this corruptible to that incorruptible, we shall see it and dwell with Christ in that everlasting Kingdom forever and ever.

According to the Gospels (see above), it was supposed to be a dramatic unmistakable event. All the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. (Matt 24) If the Kingdom is something that happened already, then the prophecy of a Second Coming to establish this Kingdom is wrong. But we already know that. It was supposed to happen quickly but it did not.

As I said; It Did happen, and with Power, only not to those who were waiting for a physical kingdom. To them it seemed as the believers were drunk, until they all heard them speak their own language, and seen them heal the sick, raise the dead and so on. But even this they could not comprehend.
Jesus was and IS the King of this here New Spiritual Kingdom where we believers walk in and out from. In when we are in the spirit, and out when we preach to the world, ... where we (our physical body only) face danger, pain and suffering from those that hate us and our message. If they kill us, ... hey so be it, as Paul said; Id much rather be with the Lord, ... but for the few that might yet be saved, ... we stay and continue to bare persecutions.

This invisible kingdom is not what was promised. The OT prophecies concerning it were not fulfilled and neither were the NT ones. All of the prophecy based reasons for believing that Jesus was the Messiah do not work. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

The failure to fulfill this prophecy led to some clever explanations later on. Acts replaces the Second Coming with the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. John says that expectation was just a mistake.

John 21

[Jesus speaking to Peter]

18 Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go. 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, Follow me!

20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, Lord, who is going to betray you?) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, Lord, what about him?

22 Jesus answered, If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me. 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?

24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

John 20 appears to be the original ending of the Gospel of John. John 21 refers to the author in the third person. There is a clear implication. John, a very old man by now and the last hearer of the words of Jesus, has now died. The not taste death and this generation shall not pass away prophecies are wrong.

No, ... John seen that Kingdom descending (after Jesus was resurrected and ascended to Heaven), at Pentecost, as did multitudes of others, just as Jesus promised he would.

You see this New Spiritual Kingdom is here, but so is this earthly kingdom for now, the Spiritual Kingdom is for those who walk according to the Spirit, not according to the flesh. Unless we are Born Again, ... in no wise will we enter that Kingdom

This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, an initiation into that New Kingdom, which as we can see Satan so desperately wants to imitate with his; New World order, or Beyond Utopia, .. or ideas like being one with the universe, etc.. and so on. He too has baptized his followers in the Trinity Doctrine, and left his mark on the hands and foreheads with that un-holy water blessed by a man (priests, Pope) as they baptize babies, and the rest who are baptized in the Trinity, that false three that bare witness in the supernatural realm (which you pointed out a while back, that it was not even in the original text) I truly believe that the mark of the devil is the Trinity Doctrine symbolized by a triangle with 60-60-60 degree angles representing the father, the son, and the spirit, each an individual divine being.

Jesus said he would return right after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in the current generation when some of the people hearing him were still alive. Did not happen. Pentecost does not match the prophecies of wither the OT or the NT. It is an excuse made up after the fact when it became obvious that Jesus was not coming.

In conclusion,

1. the New Spiritual Kingdom is here, and Jesus is its King, but only those 'born again' in the 'newness of mind' can see/understand it and fight to defend it against the ruling powers of darkness and their principalities still here in this world.

2. Jesus will come soon with Power and might, with His Angels and those who have died for the Lord will be risen first, then we who are still alive will be taken up to meet Him. As we are being taken up, we will be changed in a blink of an eye, from this corruptible to the incorruptible and will continue to descend with Jesus and the Angels to judge the earth, to be witnesses against those we personally called and preached the truth to. Here is where all that nations who have not accepted the truth will run and hide and 'call upon the mountains to fall upon them to hide them from the Judge, the King of kings.'

3. Then after each man is heard out, and all the witnesses for and against them heard, a 'decision' will be made according to their deeds, and will get what they have earned. They will not be judged, but get what they earned. The judgement is now, those who refuse to accept Jesus as their King have already chosen Satan, that dragon to be their king and serve him loyally, so the judgment is already made by their 'choice' The Bible is clear; He that does not 'confess that Jesus is the Son of God' and served Him as their King shall be cast into hell, that lake of fire prepared for Satan and his angels. Their deeds will follow them, and determine the level of darkness they will have to spend their eternity in. Now there without Christ, away from the presence of God they will live according to what they have earned. If they chose to believe in evolution, or the Big Bang theory, ... they get to wait for that BB to happen, that Gravitational Singularity, that Event Horizon or whatever they have chosen as their creator and become one with that universe.

So people, I pray you don't place your 'eternal life' on a theory, or some man-made-doctrine, but better be sure of what you hope for and certain of what you cannot see!

'Heaven is a gift, but hell is earned' and all those who have rejected the 'gift (which is Christ)' shall be cast into hell. "He that denies me before man, I shall deny before my Father in Heaven"

4. This physical universe will be burnt up along with everything in it, even the elements will burn up, and a New Earth and New Heaven that have been prepared for us will be revealed, ... and there in the 'presents' of God, with Jesus as King we shall spend eternity, creating and living in peace forever and ever, as one mind with God.

Jesus IS the Messiah of the Hebrew Bible.

1. The New Spiritual Kingdom is not what was prophesized in either the OT or the NT. If the born again can literally see it (as opposed to merely believe the story) can they describe what it looks like and have other people agree with that description in detail? If not then they are not seeing anything real.

2. Jesus has been coming soon for a couple thousand years now. He was supposed to have come immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple while some of the people who heard his words were still alive. Did not happen.

3. Jesus made it very clear (Matthew 19,25, Mark 10, Luke 18 and Revelation 22 among other places) that eternal life is earned by deeds not by belief. Jesus even minimized his role in it. Or would you rather have a God who will send those who never had a chance to hear of Jesus to eternal hellfire despite the clear words of Jesus? What makes you think that you can trust a God like that?

4. Revelation said the end of the world must soon take place and the time is near. It also says that Jesus is coming soon. That was a couple of thousand years ago. Did not happen.

[orthodox skeptic]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

When aquestion such as this arises I wonder if I should re-title myself Cynic rather than Skeptic. By that I mean, that you are asking if the New Testament confirms the Old Testament? Since both are such such questionable sources I can't see how an answer to your question could ever been considered valid if one questionable source is asked to qualify an equally questionable source?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Look, ... I would sometimes hear friends (unbelievers, atheists etc..) after putting their kids to bed tell them bedtime stories of a kingdom far, far away, with unicorns, and elves living in peace in a world free from all evil, where only good witches rule ... and so on... and the kids actually believe and even dream sometime of these fairy places. Why do we do this to our kids if we know there is no truth behind it?

We expect our children to have grown out of their child-like acceptance of stories of elves, unicorns, and jolly old fat men with teams of flying reindeer by the time they reach adulthood though don't we? Because there is a real world out there where bad things sometimes happen and child-like innocence is no protection at all in the real world. And yet you still hang on to a belief in the truth of a flying reanimated corpse who is going to take you to a magical kingdom far far away someday. Why do you accept this story when there is no obvious truth behind it? Because you prefer a world of wonder and bliss and the series of baseless and unfulfilled promises this make believe world offers you over the hard reality of the physical day-to-day world which actually exists.

The second coming of Christ could not have been known either in the Old Testament, Jesus explained this to us when He was here. it was hidden from them in the Old Testament

And it's still hidden today! Because despite the constant drumbeat of the Christian claim for the last 2,000 years that Jesus' return IS AT HAND, and will occur at just about any moment now, the undeniable fact is that everyone who lived 2,000 years ago DIED, and have all remained undeniably and reliably DEAD! There is no empty claim to be found in that statement. It is a hard and undeniable fact devoid of make believe. Everything you claim to be true and believe to be true has proven in every physical sense to be nothing more than an exercise in make believe for the last 2,000 years. "Why do we do this to our kids if we know there is no truth behind it?" An excellent question! The answer appears to be that some individuals PREFER a child-like world of make believe, and will do everything in their power of cling to it. Including passing it on to their offspring and requiring them to believe it too. And it horrifies and infuriates them when those of us who have grown up and moved beyond make believe point this problem out to them. Because once one realizes that in reality the king has no clothes on, there is no gong back to believing that transparent nonsense is actually royal robes.

[The Tongue]

[Tired of the Nonsense wrote].......despite the constant drumbeat of the Christian claim for the last 2,000 years that Jesus' return IS AT HAND, and will occur at just about any moment now, the undeniable fact is that everyone who lived 2,000 years ago DIED, and have all remained undeniably and reliably DEAD!

Only according to the views of the atheists, skeptics, and cynics of the world, but not those who understand the words of the Lord, wherein the truth is revealed.

Isaiah 57: 1; Good people die and no one understands of even care. But when they (Good people) die, no calamity can hurt them. Those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death.

If those who lead good lives find peace and rest, then there must remain another state of unrest for those who live unrighteous lives and we see this state as revealed in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

The unrighteous dead are gathered to Azazel to whom all sin is ascribed and who is cast into the lake of fire. See Lev

Through his earthly servant Jesus, the Lord said; He who believes on me, even though he dies, yet shall he live again, but he who believes on me and lives, will never die. See Leviticus chapter 16.

Jesus did not have to die, he was the compilation of all the spirits of good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin, and who were judged and separated from the unrighteous dead and had been gathered to the living evolving spirit of Enoch our ancestral Father, in the bosom of Abraham and his descendants and over them, the second death had no power, but to disprove that the concept that the death of the body was the end of life, he was obedient to our Father even unto his cruel death on the cross.

John 14: 30; I cannot talk to you much longer, because (DEATH) the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me. But the world must know that I love the Father, that is why I do everything as he commands me.

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die. For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it.

We are now at the close of the sixth day, the seventh day, which is the Great Sabbath, The Day of the Lord, is dawning

Jesus the host body to our ancestral Father Enoch, who had been in the valley of man for three days, or rather, three periods of one thousand years, has proven that they who believe on Him who sent Jesus, even though they die, yet shall they live again. The chosen host body to Elijah, who like Enoch has never died, has now also been in the valley of the earth for three days, will prove that he who lives and believes, shall never die.

The indwelling ancestral Father of Jesus, who dwelt behind the veil of the flesh within the inner most sanctuary of the temple that was the body of Jesus, was Enoch, the compilation of all the spirits of Good people who had been gathered to him in his evolution to become Jesus, who learned through suffering to be true to and an extension of WHO HE WAS.

On the cross, Jesus cried out, My God, my God, why have you abandoned me," as the spiritual Father/kA, behind the veil of the flesh, within the inner most sanctuary of Jesus, ceased to be an individual entity, and the graves of the spirits of who he was their compilation, were opened, and three days later, they entered the city of Jerusalem, where they showed themselves as the risen Christ.

Matthew 27: 52, And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that slept arose. Verse 53, And came out of the graves and three days later after the resurrection, they went into the Holy city and appeared to many.

One would expect the risen body to appear to the family of Jesus first, and this is exactly what we see.

The first to see one of they, who were of body of the risen Christ, the 365 day old unblemished Lamb of God, reborn on earth as Jesus who was offered up for our sake, were his Mother, Mary the wife of Cleophas and her Adelphe Mary Magdalene, who, although looking straight at him, thought that he was the gardener, until he spoke her name.

The next to who one of the risen body of Christ appeared, were Cleophas who is also called Alpheaus the carpenter, who is the biological father of James the youngest of Mary's three biological sons, and James was the first to sit on the Episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision, and Cleophas was the husband of Mary, who, with his son Simon, 'to another marriage,' who was to inherit the Episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision after his half brother, 'James the righteous,' was killed at the instigation of the same Sadducee sect that had his full brother Jesus killed.

Although Cleophas and Simon walked and talked with one of the risen body of Christ for some 11 kilometres, they did not recognise him for who he was, until Simon saw the manner in which he broke the bread, Cleophas then returned to Jerusalem, where eleven of the disciples, which included Simon Peter and Simon the Patriot, were cowering in a darkened room, the only one absent that evening when Jesus appeared in that dimly lit room in the form that they recognised as Jesus, was Thomas Didymus Jude another half brother of Jesus, who was called the Twin, although nowhere does the bible say that he was an actual twin or whether he just held a striking resemblance to someone else. But back to Cleophas, who said to the eleven, "He has risen, he appeared to Simon," who was of course Simon the brother of Jesus who succeeded James the younger as the head of the church founded by Jesus.

Then there were the seven disciples who were fishing on Lake Galilee having no success at all, when someone on the bank told them to throw their net on the right side of the boat in which they caught 153 fishes, sitting down to eat with the person who had a fire prepared with fish on it and some bread, not one of the seven disciples of Jesus who had walked and talked with him, dared to ask who he was, but they understood that he was of the risen body of Christ.

Even when he ascended up into heaven as a cloud, some of the 11 disciples doubted that it was he.

1 Peter 4: 18-20, For Christ was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, and in his spiritual existence he descended into the world of dead and he preached the good news to those who were disobedient in the days when Noah was building the boat.

Chapter 4: 6, and the good news was preached to the dead, to those who had been judged in the physical existence as all are judged, so that in their spiritual existence they might live as God live,s and God is the indwelling spirit to whom all the spirits of good people who fall asleep in righteousness are gathered.

Those spirits to whom Jesus had descended and preached the good news, those who had been Judged in the flesh as all are judged and had been found worthy of the resurrection, are the spirits that were poured out as fire on the heads of all those who had believed the words of our saviour which were spoken through the mouth of his obedient servant Jesus, and they in their spiritual existence, dwelt within the body of man, gathering to themselves the good spirits of the descendants of the ones, who, on the day of Pentecost received their share of the hidden Manna, a little tongue of fire, a living spiritual cell of the body of our saviour who gave his immortal body of light for us and who rose Jesus from death as the first fruits of those who are to be redeemed from the dead past of the only exception of all mankind, who, at the age of 365 was carried into the eighth heaven.

For Enoch says; And God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first day after his works, and it is a day eternal, with neither hours, days, weeks, months, or years: For all time is stuck together in one aeon, and all who enter therein shall be surrounded by great light, and they shall know peace.

And they, the spiritual cells of the immortal Son of MAN who now live in their spiritual existence as God lives, will be resurrected as the body of Christ when they have each gathered to themselves the required number of righteous spirits who have paid the blood price for the sins of their life on earth, and they who are but the compilation of those enclosures of spirits who do not have to suffer the second death, are they of the first resurrection, will each choose for themselves an earthly host body, in which to be reborn on earth, who will take the thrones that have been prepared for them and the resurrected body of CHRIST will rule the Sabbath, the day of the Lord.

From the Book of Enoch the prophet 108: 11-13; And now I will summons the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who, in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name (Who I Am,) and I will seat each one on the throne of his honour. And they shall be resplendent for times without number.

After The Day of the Lord, the Great Sabbath of one thousand years, the seventh day from the first day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930, fire will descend from heaven and incinerate all physical life forms on this planet, fulfilling the prophecy of the Lord through his prophet Zephaniah 1: 2-3; The Lord said, I am going to destroy everything on earth. All human beings and animals, birds, and fish. I will bring about the down fall of the wicked. I will destroy all mankind, and no survivors will be left. I, the Lord, have spoken.

!8; On the day when the Lord shows his fury, not even all their silver and gold will save them. The whole earth will be destroyed by the fire of his anger. He will put an end---a sudden end---to everyone who lives on earth.

During the thousand years of peace, and knowing the cataclysmic event that awaits the earth and with the great wealth paid as tribute by the nations of the earth, a genetic bank of all the relevant life forms will be created to repopulate the earth when it is again capable of sustaining Life.

When all physical life forms on this planet has been incinerated, the elect and chosen who were the resurrected body of the ANOINTED ONE, over who the second death has no power, will be caught up to heaven to sit with Jesus=Enoch in the throne of Godhead to the entire creation visible and invisible, and it is He, who, when the time is right, and all the infrastructure for the sustainability for mankind has been restored on the earth, will say; And now, let us make man in our image.

Under the guidance of Jupiter (Planet) man prepares, by means of religious exercises, for the journey to the life beyond (the human existence) and he attains rest under the influence of Saturn. (Basra Encyclopaedia), --- De Boer, Philosophy in Islam, p, 88.

The world being melted and re-entered into the bosom of Jupiter, this God continues for some time totally concentered in himself: . . . afterwards we see a new world spring from him, perfect in all its parts; animals are produced anew; an innocent race of man is formed under more favourable auspices, in order to people this earth. " Seneca, Epist, 9, and Qucest. Nat. L. 3, c, ult.

What is to occur will occur irrelevant as to the view of you disbelievers.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

What is to occur will occur irrelevant as to the view of you disbelievers.

What has not yet occurred is not yet relevant, that much is true. What never does occur seems to be totally irrelevant to the 2,000 year old ongoing string of empty clams for you believers.

[EduChris]

...Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?...

According to preeminent Jewish scholar Abraham Joshua Heschel:

The goal of all efforts is to bring about the restitution of the unity of God and world. The restoration of that unity is a constant process and its accomplishment will be the essence of Messianic redemption (Man is not Alone, p. 112).

He goes on to say:

The Bible is not a history of the Jewish people, but the story of God's quest of the righteous man. Because of the failure of the human species as a whole to follow in the path of righteousness, it is an individual...on which the task is bestowed to satisfy that quest by making every man a righteous man (ibid, p. 245).

According to the earliest Jewish followers of Jesus the Jew, Jesus is that individual who makes every (hu)man righteous in God's eyes, thus fulfilling what Heschel describes as "the essence" of the Messianic task.

[arian]

But it still amounts to there being no prophecy about what did happen and the prophecy about what was supposed to happen unfulfilled. I do not see how this supports the notion that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, which is what this thread is all about. In fact I do not see how it amounts to anything more than a less than credible excuse for the wrong thing happening. It seems that it would give Satan the idea that this Jesus guy was a fake and that God is powerless, thereby encouraging Satan to really go to town on world domination.

That is exactly what is going on, a senseless all out world domination where every nation is deceived equally and has accepted a lie of promises that they will never collect on. God is powerless to help those that refuse His help.

Satan knows that Jesus is coming back, and even the demons said when they seen Jesus the first time; "Have you come to judge us before it's time?"
Satan has to fool people so they would not notice the times. I mean people are worshiping some devine beings instead of the One True God.

Of course that is assuming that the Satan character is really as portrayed in the NT. The OT Satan is much different, more of a devils advocate ( 0) than the personification of evil. Any recourse to the reconstructed Satan as an element in demonstrating Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah is not going to work.

In the OT Satan was still allowed to reside in Heaven, remember Job? He was roaming the earth and then came before the Lord along with the Angels in Heaven when God asked him where has he been, and if he took note of righteous Job? But after he was cast out of Heaven, he knew it was all over for him, so here he is trying his damnedest to destroy as many of us as he can, as Jesus said; "Satan roams around like a roaring lion to devour whom he may, because he knows his time is short"

This invisible Spiritual Kingdom is not at all what was prophesized. Again it sounds like something made up to cover up the fact that the actual prophecies did not come true.

Can you 'see' my thoughts ThatGirlAgain? How long have we been debating and I have never seen you yet. Was or is our debates real? Look how much work we put into them, all done with the body, yet it is all commanded by our spirit, our minds. The body is just a Temple, a house, a robot to do the biding of our mind. NOT the brain, ... the brain is controlled by the mind.

How can we see the Kingdom of God? It is when we start to discern between good and evil, when we recognize the evil in this world and wonder, imagine that New Eternal Kingdom where no evil will be able to ruin our plans.

If you want to discuss the Big Bang or Evolution, go to the appropriate forum. I will only discuss it here to the extent that the alternative to the Big Bang is that the universe always existed and there is no creator. Never quite grasped why theists might be opposed to the Big Bang.

Have you grasped the difference between the gods in theism and the One True God of the Hebrews yet? I believe my toy box full of plastic toy soldiers analogy is pretty clear don't you think?

Also, once you can imagine the mind apart from the body (remember the the brain is part of the body), you will start to understand (see) this New Kingdom. We are mostly using and communicating with each other right now using our mind, the rest is physical tools we use from the house (brain, hands etc), or outside the house like the computer and so on.

The Big Bang Evolution theory is like a used-car salesman telling you a long story about the history of the car he is selling you, trying to distract you from the actual car your looking at. And we both know it works, unless that 'old grandma' that drove that car to church and back on Sunday only for the past six years was a heavy pot smoker and beer drinker and hid her beer cans under the seat along with the marijuana buts?

The destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem happened. But they were supposed to be followed very quickly by the Second Coming. Did not happen. By the time that John and Acts were written this had become painfully obvious and other excuses were needed. John has it become a misunderstanding that it would happen quickly despite the very explicit language of the Synoptic Gospels and the clear expectation of Paul. Acts changes it from Jesus returning to the Holy Spirit, again despite explicit language in the Synoptics and Paul about an imminent return of Jesus and a universal judgment.

Not only do the OT prophecies fall flat. So do the NT ones.

No, not only the Holy Spirit that entered the believers, but the Spiritual Kingdom that was revealed to their minds. I know it IS hard, but we have to at least start to imagine the 'mind/spirit/soul' of man separate from the body. I had a hard time separating it too because we think that the brain creates the mind, ... that somehow those electrical impulses make up the 'mind', but it's not. The mind is our spirit that resides in this temple, or body and even though it is invisible, it is very real, ... without it we could not reason, walk, talk, create, OR live. We would be no different than a clay sculpture.

The New Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom that for now only our 'mind' can enter in and out from. And as Jesus said; "where two or three are gathered in my name, there I will be in the midst of you" It is NOT by sight...

The Synoptic Gospels clearly reference the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and state that these will happen in the current generation before all those who heard the words of Jesus were dead.

Again, the Spiritual Kingdom came at Pentecost and is here, only this physical body cannot see it, nor enter it.

Just as we are promised a new body for our spirit/soul to live in, there will be a new Earth and a new Heaven for our new bodies to live in. It is no use for this physical brain to demand something it cannot understand, the mind ... that spirit within us must come alive first (born again), but the flesh is against that, it wants to see it for itself, because it wants to live not die. Look how many are dead in Christ, don't believe in God, make up fairytale theories as their creator and then demand to see the Spiritual Kingdom. Then we say: "If I cannot see it, it didn't happen and it doesn't exist. God doesn't exist either because I cant see Him."

This is why religions like the Jehovah Witnesses changed that coming New Spiritual Kingdom into just a renewed physical kingdom, because this physical body demands to stay alive and live forever on this physical earth. The Mormons do the same thing, they imagine a physical god residing on a physical planet... even if they both have to re-write the whole Bible to fit their demands.

Sorry physical body, but you will NOT 'live forever on this planet earth', or any other planet in this universe.

Then immediately after Jesus was supposed to return in the sky with angels and judge everyone. Did not happen. Pushing it into the future is a clear contradiction of this prophecy. Revelation even starts off saying that the time is near for the end of the world and it must soon take place. Did not happen.

"When you see all these things happen, then the end will come..." "The Lord is not slack in His coming, ... only He would that everyone would be saved..."

I understand what you mean though, ... 2,000 years seems a lot for us, but in reality none of us had to live/wait 2,000 years, only around seventy, eighty years and as soon as we close our eyes in death, we are awakened in a blink of an eye, .. right?

The Pentecost story is at variance not only with the clear expectations set forth in the OT prophecies, it even is at variance with the explicit NT prophecies. This invisible Kingdom sounds a whole lot like another cover story for prophecies not happening.

Cover story? Our Jewish ancestors were waiting for the Messiah at the time, and He came, and they killed Him. They seen Him with their own eyes, seen what he did and said, so how are they going to accept a Spiritual Kingdom? If they refused to accept and 'believe' what they seen with their eyes and heard with their ears, how will they accept and believe what they cannot see?
Faith is to be sure of what we hope for and certain of things we cannot see, ... yet they believe in a 13.75 billion year old BB story???

This invisible kingdom is not what was promised. The OT prophecies concerning it were not fulfilled and neither were the NT ones. All of the prophecy based reasons for believing that Jesus was the Messiah do not work. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

They were promised a Kingdom that will never pass away, ... we die... so how did they understand an Everlasting Kingdom, ... a physical one? How long before they would have killed that King too? Unless they were expecting to keep ALL the laws flawlessly and make sacrifices purely from the heart as was required for an eternity? Yeah... right, as if they actually even thought of that as a possibility, not alone believed in such a thing?

Jesus said he would return right after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in the current generation when some of the people hearing him were still alive. Did not happen. Pentecost does not match the prophecies of either the OT or the NT. It is an excuse made up after the fact when it became obvious that Jesus was not coming.

If the Jews didn't believe it 2,000 years ago when Jesus was walking the earth, ... how could I, or anyone make you believe it now? Can you describe what kind of man or woman that you would believe to be the Jewish Messiah? Can you describe this person, what you'd expect him to do, or say that would convince you that he IS the Messiah? Can ANY Jew, or has any Jew described such a person that they's accept as their Messiah?

First of all, many Jews today don't even believe Moses existed, or any God that this Moses talked to existed, so what would some prophesy of some Messiah even matter?

But one will come in his own name, ... now that they will believe.

1. The New Spiritual Kingdom is not what was prophesized in either the OT or the NT. If the born again can literally see it (as opposed to merely believe the story) can they describe what it looks like and have other people agree with that description in detail? If not then they are not seeing anything real.

When you hear someone talk to you and tell you something, can you see it with your eyes, or do you vision it with your mind? You 'see it' with your mind right? Well the same way we can see that Spiritual Kingdom that is here, ... it is where absolute truth reigns. Can you 'see' truth?

Where you see believers walk in the teachings of Christ, there you see people walking in that Kingdom.

2. Jesus has been coming soon for a couple thousand years now. He was supposed to have come immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple while some of the people who heard his words were still alive. Did not happen.

As I said before, describe to me the person who you, or that you believe the Jews would accept as their Messiah? Give me the time, the manner, the family, the place, the character and some of his deeds that would be expected of him to reign and rule Israel forever in an Eternal Kingdom? This way I could understand why Jesus did not fit that person, and why He was so rejected by the Jews.

3. Jesus made it very clear (Matthew 19,25, Mark 10, Luke 18 and Revelation 22 among other places) that eternal life is earned by deeds not by belief. Jesus even minimized his role in it. Or would you rather have a God who will send those who never had a chance to hear of Jesus to eternal hellfire despite the clear words of Jesus? What makes you think that you can trust a God like that?

Faith without works is dead, just as works without faith is useless. God is just and kind. God is Love so I'm sure He will judge according to His character every last person.

I don't worry about those that haven't heard of God and Christ , I worry of those who have heard and even seen the miracles and still denied Him, and continue to deny Him.

4. Revelation said the end of the world must soon take place and the time is near. It also says that Jesus is coming soon. That was a couple of thousand years ago. Did not happen.

2,000 years later and just look around you and see how many truly serve the God of the Hebrews, the One True God even though He sent His own Son to die for us? Maybe God sees that 2,000 years is just not enough? Pretty much everyone heard of Christ, I mean He is preached throughout the world, but it seems to me we would still need at least another two to three hundred years to sink in, what do you think?

[Danmark]

....
The second coming of Christ could not have been known either in the Old Testament, Jesus explained this to us when He was here. it was hidden from them in the Old Testament, ... the whole thing was done in a humble, beyond human imagination setting to keep the proud Satan unaware, being fulfilled as it happened. He was expecting the Christ to appear in all His Glory, with power and might he himself would have come with and not the way Jesus appeared, not to royalty, but to a simple girl betrothed to a simple carpenter. This was all because as the NT explains, ... "would they have known, they would not have crucified Him."
....

The NT goes to great length to take prophesies from the Jewish Bible and weave them into a Midrash that tries to persuade that Jesus was the Messiah, but they just couldn't come up something to suggest a 2d coming. So THAT prophesy, which they would have loved to have added to the mix, had to be excused by the feeble, 'well, uh... gee... uh ... see, they would not have crucified him had they really known.' That is a fatally weak argument. All thru the Bible and NT we are told of God's mighty power and how he can mold Kings to his will, but suddenly The Almighty cannot bring about the crucifiction if there was prophesy about a 2d coming? Suddenly your god is too weak. That's your argument?