Ends and means

[bernee51]

From the accounts in the gospels, the torture and execution of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth was a hoorendous and barbaric act carried out for reasons contrived by the power structures at the time.

Without this act, however, the salvation claimed by christians would not have occured.

By these brutal acts those who believe benefit through 'eternal life'.

Was this act evil?

Is it a case of the means being justified by the ends?

[Megaboomer]

Value is a strange little concept, considering that it can be attributed to things with little to no proof. After all, if we are judging value to be whatever produces the best results, then the question becomes which results are desired. If one for any reason does not want to be a Christian in life, be in Heaven in death, or both, then we are hard-pressed to define Christianity as "valuable."

-yah but if you believe the bible to be true then it is valuable when the alternative is eternal separation from Love, and eternal hellfire.. (not a joking matter)

That was my post, btw, not Joey's, and I find it to be a joking matter to the point of hilarity.

Just kidding.

The point is, however, that there is no such thing as inherent "value" except what we instill ourselves, so it is in the most objective sense arbitrary. The issue of what happens whether you accept or do not accept this is not the point. I think Whirlwind made the same mistake in assuming that I was pushing a specific view on Christianity, when I was simply demonstrating the arbitrary nature of "value" regardless of belief system (or whichever metaphysical threats might come from their gods, as you suggest).

-sorry bout the miss quote btw
- so are you saying you can define value or are you saying you cannot define it?

In which sense? As in a dictionary definition? If so, according to Dictionary.com's definition in terms of ethical theory is here:

Value (N): Ethics. any object or quality desirable as a means or as an end in itself.

it also means that if something is valuable there are things that are not or less valuable. so how do you know what is valuable in the sense of people?
- i believe that Gods word is the only thing fitting to define someones worth. because if left up to man to decide who is worthless and who is valuable they will end up rejecting someone. the bible says that in Gods eyes all men have fallen short of what is valuable and that is the glory of God. but God will Give man His glory as a free gift if you will belive in the sacrifice it took to get it for you.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 24:

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

>presents statement regarding "meaningful, valuable" life<

Joey, it isn't your present life I'm speaking of. [Eccl.3:19-20]

I challenge you to present verifiable, confirmable, 'non-circular-logical' evidence to show you speak truth.

I will not have a (some) theist declare they do now, or will in the future enjoy some "meaningful, valuable" life above what atheists enjoy, unless that theist can show they speak truth.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 27:

Joey, it isn't your present life I'm speaking of. [Eccl.3:19-20]

From what I have been reading, it seems like you were and your current attempt is aimed at
1) Preaching
2) Saving some face

But that aside...

Value is a strange little concept, considering that it can be attributed to things with little to no proof. After all, if we are judging value to be whatever produces the best results, then the question becomes which results are desired. If one for any reason does not want to be a Christian in life, be in Heaven in death, or both, then we are hard-pressed to define Christianity as "valuable."

Well said. I hold no truck with a barbarous god, nor with that god's adherents.
---------------------------------------

From Post 28:

Joey,

I agree with you IF we “shoot a little lower� than theists in general.

I do wish I'da made the distinction between the one theist and the 'impliable' "all theists".

The rational and thinking theist members here do NOT make such statements because they KNOW better. However, the more fanatical / fundamental / fervent / proselytizing / evangelical believers (of whatever religion) are prone to make statements of personal or denominational “superiority� – condemning all who disagree with them, as though they have all the answers and as though they alone possess “ultimate truth�.

What really bothers me about this is knowing so many theists in my neck of the woods would agree to such an unprovable, unproven notion regarding the superior "meaningful, valuable life" the theist claims to possess.

“Life has no meaning without my god� is their battle cry when charging out to make enemies for their religion (and for religion in general). Many claim that they are obligated to “witness for god�, when in fact their effect is exactly the opposite.

Well phrased, per your typically high standard.

I'll leave the rest of the post for the intended debater.

[Goat]

Megaboomer wrote:
are we just learning from the christians and picking apart their arguments for Jesus Living a perfect Life and dying a terrible death? or is there any elegid evidence/ reason to believe the contrary?

The evidence/reason to believe the opposite is the lack of evidence FOR, and the contrary stories ABOUT.

- Lol like what kind of stories? please enlighten me … and don’t waste my time with folk lore that has no historical validity
-the fact is that the bible has more historical validity than any other historical document known to man…

We must also not forget the fantastic and fantasy like stories that violate the laws of nature about also.

-what are the laws of nature please pray tell? So there is no evidence of things happening out of the ordinary? (rhetorical question).

Let's see you provide a reasonable explanation of how Judas died. How about, using the text of Mathew and Luke themselves show how those two geologies are accurate.

Show me the convergence of evidence that show dead people walked around Jerusalem.

-um goat i just asked you for evidence that discredits biblical teaching. i'll tell you the evidences that support the bible but i asked you first for the evidence to the contrary... because as i have already stated the bible is the best historical document in human knowledge.

Well, I have just pointed out issues that demonstrate yoru claim that 'the bible is the best historical document in human knowledge' is inaccurate. In Matthew, Judas dies in one manner, per the teaching of the bible, and in Acts, he dies in another manner.

Do you want to continue to claim the bible is the 'best historical document in human knowledge'? Want to back up that claim?

[JoeyKnothead]

Value is a strange little concept, considering that it can be attributed to things with little to no proof. After all, if we are judging value to be whatever produces the best results, then the question becomes which results are desired. If one for any reason does not want to be a Christian in life, be in Heaven in death, or both, then we are hard-pressed to define Christianity as "valuable."

-yah but if you believe the bible to be true then it is valuable when the alternative is eternal separation from Love, and eternal hellfire.. (not a joking matter)

Please note I'm not the one who made the comments attributed to me here, but do agree with them. So...

Can you show you speak truth regarding:

1- "Eternal hellfire" exists.
2- Some folks might end up in it.
3- We ought not joke about folks claiming stuff that assaults the senses but those same folks expect their claims to be believed.

I fart in the general direction of any god that threatens me.

[Zzyzx]

.

What really bothers me about this is knowing so many theists in my neck of the woods would agree to such an unprovable, unproven notion regarding the superior "meaningful, valuable life" the theist claims to possess.

My neck of the woods (deep in the hills of Arkansas) is infested with ticks, chiggers and fanatics, so I understand exactly what you are saying.

Many here seem totally unable to comprehend that life can have meaning without worshiping gods, consulting gods, pleasing gods, dedicating life to gods. Perhaps for them that is true, but they insist that what works for them MUST apply to everyone. In some circles that might be known as being narrow minded (or running in circles).

[Munchskreem]

it also means that if something is valuable there are things that are not or less valuable. so how do you know what is valuable in the sense of people?

That's the thing. We don't. The issue is that there is likely to be no concrete standard of valuation by which we can judge people and things, and hence we can create no concrete system of what we do and do not value. That is not to say, however, that such a lack prohibits us from applying value in a subjective means, however illusory it might be.

- i believe that Gods word is the only thing fitting to define someones worth. because if left up to man to decide who is worthless and who is valuable they will end up rejecting someone. the bible says that in Gods eyes all men have fallen short of what is valuable and that is the glory of God. but God will Give man His glory as a free gift if you will belive in the sacrifice it took to get it for you.

First, there are two things that don't work on me: Jedi mind tricks and personal appeals.

Second, God rejects men all the time, beginning with the casting out of Adam and Eve from Eden to the concept of a punitive afterlife where people are permanently removed from God.

Third, the standard which produces the most inclusivity is not necessarily the one which is the most correct. It does not address my point, which is that value is a concept which can not be objectively applied under any circumstances because it is contingent upon different desired outcomes and different views on what is intrinsically good, when we can not demonstrate that "intrinsic good" actually exists.

The question becomes: How does God justify his monopoly on the only intrinsically good moral standard? Why is the greatest good in his opinion the greatest good objectively speaking? Furthermore, how do we define "good" without self-reference?

[whirlwind]

From the accounts in the gospels, the torture and execution of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth was a hoorendous and barbaric act carried out for reasons contrived by the power structures at the time.

Without this act, however, the salvation claimed by christians would not have occured.

By these brutal acts those who believe benefit through 'eternal life'.

Was this act evil?

Is it a case of the means being justified by the ends?

The act was evil done by the evil but that was the reason He came in flesh.

If this act was evil yet had the consequences you accept...why should the Holocaust (for example) be considered evil if it had consequences that can now perceived as acceptable?

Why should 'satan' be accepted as 'evil'?

The d-evil is evil for his fight is to keep souls from the Father.

How can you know (rather than believe) that is is not the devil who has created this myth of the Christ – just to lead you away from a deeper truth?

What "deeper truth" Bernee? One either believes in God or one doesn't. The Battle of Armageddon, which many see as a future event, isn't. It is an ongoing spiritual war...and has been going on forever. As there are only two sides, no innocent bystanders allowed, those that don't believe are already on Satan's side whether or not they know it. Those that do believe are those Satan "makes war with." As Uncle Sam wants YOU...Satan wants believers.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

God gives him his power. This is the great tribulation...not heads rolling down the street but spiritual warfare that he fights with great deception as he and his workers pretend to be so holy. He wants souls, not flesh bodies.

So yes, he creates myths. Not myths to attract atheists for their decision is made. The myths are to deceive those that love Christ into believing he and his minions are Christ or Christian as they teach falsely...leading those that allow it away from God to the fake. The anti-christ when properly translated is....the instead-of-christ. He stands instead of the true Christ and many are deceived.

He does this through deception...pretending to be so holy as he masquerades as a follower of God.

Likewise – the masquerade of the evangelists and later those that followed who have created a religion of deception on behalf of the ‘evil one’ in order to lead you further from the truth.

Those are the deceivers I was speaking of Bernee. They are Satan's army. They have "created a religion of deception." They do lead further from the truth. They lead away from the true Christ to the fake, the instead-of-christ. As did Satan in the garden, he entices with just a little twist of truth to cause one to fall away. So they stand at the pulpit, reading one or two verses from His Word while the truth is twisted. They teach the lie of rapture or the lie of the earthly "holy father" or bowing to Mary, or passing snakes around, or not receiving blood transfusions, or, or, or ....

The Holocaust I don't understand Bernee. Although through Biblical history Israel has been subject to many terrible things. There are places where it is written He took His protection away because they didn't follow Him. It isn't that He punished them but He no longer protected them. They were subject to the world without Him. They broke the covenant...not Him.

I must ask....why do you see the results of the Holocaust as now being "acceptable?" Or am I not understanding what you wrote?

There are those that argue that the existence of the state of Israel – required to meet prophecy – was very much influenced by the fact of the Holocaust. Surely this is an acceptable outcome?

The terrorist acts of the Israelis during the 1920’s notwithstanding.

I see. I never heard that connection before. It doesn't make sense to me. Allow your own people to be slaughtered when they are the very ones the nation of Israel is to be filled with.

It was prophesied a thousand years before it happened [Psalms 22].

Off topic, but....

Please show how this is a prophesy. I am sure the Judaic scholars amongst us will beg to differ.

Please show how this so-called prophesy is not a case of retrofitting aan event that was believed to have happened (death and resurrection) to fit with the OT text in order to give the beleif more credibility.

Why are you not being duped by this?

Because it was written long before the birth of Christ. The words were never changed.

On what grounds do you claim the words of that Psalm are referring to Christ?

On what grounds do you claim that the story of the Christ as told in the gospel is not a retrofit?

On the grounds of common sense. The Psalm was written long before the event. The event is documented. While on the cross Jesus was teaching....even in His agony, He was teaching us. He never referred to His Father as "God" while He walked the earth in flesh. Yet while on the cross He said....

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me?

He was quoting the Psalm that foretold His crucifixion....

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

His purpose...

John quotes....

How did 'John', writing at the earliest some 50 years after the fact know all this?

How can what he wrote ver verified?

Why are you not being duped by this?

John was with Him.

This is (yet another) unsupported and unsubstantiated claim

It is unsubstantiated to you that my ancestors were from Scotland but...it is true. It is unsubstantiated that I was saved from a terrible accident...but I was. John was with Him Bernee. It is supported and substantiated in the Bible. It is your decision to believe it or not.

He lived in John and He lives in me and He lives in believers. We are given to know.

I believe you are deceived.

I know you do.

Duped by the Words? Why are you not being duped by atheism?

Atheism makes no claims. By what can I be duped?

The biggest dupe of all times. The claim atheism makes is that there is no God. Even the devils know that isn't true.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[whirlwind]

From Post 24:

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

>presents statement regarding "meaningful, valuable" life<

Joey, it isn't your present life I'm speaking of. [Eccl.3:19-20]

I challenge you to present verifiable, confirmable, 'non-circular-logical' evidence to show you speak truth.

I will not have a (some) theist declare they do now, or will in the future enjoy some "meaningful, valuable" life above what atheists enjoy, unless that theist can show they speak truth.

Joey, we have different viewpoints on what circular logic is. I would love to answer your questions with truth. When you are ready to discuss what is written, if I'm still here, we can discuss the answers He gives.

[whirlwind]

-when did God destroy the earth more than once I’m not aware of this?

Science shows that earth is ancient...millions or billions of years old and...it is. There are references in the Bible that tell us of that previous age. That was the age in which Satan rebelled and God destroyed the earth. When this present age began it was covered with water. The history of our age begins in [Gen.1:2].

Remember, when we first learn about Satan he is already in his fallen state.