How You Can Prove the Bible Wrong

[Danmark]

Romans 1:28-31: (ESV)
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Doesn't this mean that if we do not believe in God, we will act as described?
And if so, can atheists not disprove this passage simply by being kind, considerate, and loving; refraining from the long list of evils above?

Is it fair to say the standard is not too high to reach; that all we have to do is meet or exceed the performance of the average Christian?

[Danmark]

Romans 1:28-31: (ESV)
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Doesn't this mean that if we do not believe in God, we will act as described?
And if so, can atheists not disprove this passage simply by being kind, considerate, and loving; refraining from the long list of evils above?

Is it fair to say the standard is not too high to reach; that all we have to do is meet or exceed the performance of the average Christian?

No. Atheists can not disprove the passage. They may not be evil, covetous, or have malice. They may not be full of envy nor murder, strife, deceit, or maliciousness. Likewise they may not be gossips, slanders, or haters of God. Nor insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil. They may not be foolish or heartless. However, they will be disobedient to their Father, that is God and likewise, will have no faith.

So . . . let me be sure I understand. An atheist may be kind, gentle, generous, loving and avoid the evils above enumerated, but if he does not share your faith he is disobedient and evil because he does not share your faith, despite his otherwise blameless conduct?

The plain meaning of Paul in the passage above is just the opposite. Paul is saying that because they do not acknowledge God, they Can NOT be good. They will be "filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit," and so forth. So you disagree with Paul?

To be clear, Paul is saying you cannot be good unless you acknowledge God. You are saying a man can act like a good man, but without faith he is nonetheless evil? This is not only a misreading of Paul, it makes no sense to me.

[Goat]

Romans 1:28-31: (ESV)
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Doesn't this mean that if we do not believe in God, we will act as described?
And if so, can atheists not disprove this passage simply by being kind, considerate, and loving; refraining from the long list of evils above?

Is it fair to say the standard is not too high to reach; that all we have to do is meet or exceed the performance of the average Christian?

No. Atheists can not disprove the passage. They may not be evil, covetous, or have malice. They may not be full of envy nor murder, strife, deceit, or maliciousness. Likewise they may not be gossips, slanders, or haters of God. Nor insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil. They may not be foolish or heartless. However, they will be disobedient to their Father, that is God and likewise, will have no faith.

Before you can say 'they are disobedient to their father'.. you have to show that 'THeir father' actually told them to do something.. ..and quoting from the bible is just quoting what some guy or other CLAIMS God wants them to do.

Can you show that God would actually WANT of anybody, and not just quote from a book that merely makes claims FOR god, but appears to be written by man?

[Divine Insight]

Before you can say 'they are disobedient to their father'.. you have to show that 'THeir father' actually told them to do something.. ..and quoting from the bible is just quoting what some guy or other CLAIMS God wants them to do.

Can you show that God would actually WANT of anybody, and not just quote from a book that merely makes claims FOR god, but appears to be written by man?

Well, not only that, but they would also need to show where the person they are accusing has actually done whatever it is that they believe is "disobedient behavior".

[Divine Insight]

The plain meaning of Paul in the passage above is just the opposite. Paul is saying that because they do not acknowledge God, they Can NOT be good. They will be "filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit," and so forth. So you disagree with Paul?

To be clear, Paul is saying you cannot be good unless you acknowledge God. You are saying a man can act like a good man, but without faith he is nonetheless evil? This is not only a misreading of Paul, it makes no sense to me.

I agree with the respectable gentleman from Washington State.

In fact, this is why I reject the writings of Paul. He's clearly a liar, and I'm living proof.

He's lying because he's making statement about me personally that simply aren't true.

He's claiming that because I don't believe in his view of God that I'm necessarily "filled with all manner of unrighteousness".

That is a lie when applied to me. Therefore I can personally know that Paul was making up lies.

Also, Jesus never predicted that anyone would be coming along to finish his ministry. In fact, why would God send Jesus with a message to humanity and then have to rely on Paul a mere mortal man to finish the message? Jesus said all that needed to be said.

Paul is far more likely to be a false prophet like Jesus warned us about.

He should have never been included in the biblical canon.

I move that we toss Paul out as a false prophet.

[Cewakiyelo]

Romans 1:28-31: (ESV)
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Doesn't this mean that if we do not believe in God, we will act as described?
And if so, can atheists not disprove this passage simply by being kind, considerate, and loving; refraining from the long list of evils above?

Is it fair to say the standard is not too high to reach; that all we have to do is meet or exceed the performance of the average Christian?

No. Atheists can not disprove the passage. They may not be evil, covetous, or have malice. They may not be full of envy nor murder, strife, deceit, or maliciousness. Likewise they may not be gossips, slanders, or haters of God. Nor insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil. They may not be foolish or heartless. However, they will be disobedient to their Father, that is God and likewise, will have no faith.

So . . . let me be sure I understand. An atheist may be kind, gentle, generous, loving and avoid the evils above enumerated, but if he does not share your faith he is disobedient and evil because he does not share your faith, despite his otherwise blameless conduct?

The plain meaning of Paul in the passage above is just the opposite. Paul is saying that because they do not acknowledge God, they Can NOT be good. They will be "filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit," and so forth. So you disagree with Paul?

To be clear, Paul is saying you cannot be good unless you acknowledge God. You are saying a man can act like a good man, but without faith he is nonetheless evil? This is not only a misreading of Paul, it makes no sense to me.

I would not go as far as say that without faith one is necessarily evil. I would say lost to God. Faith is not just the belief in God. It is doing the things that we would see as being righteous because it pleases God. We do it for God and his approval rather than doing it for ourselves and mans approval. Since atheists do not recognize God as their Father. They do not feel a need to honor him nor owe any debt to Him for all that was created for them. The are turning their backs to Him thus they are disobedient and faithless.

Furthermore, the passage is not saying that because they do not acknowledge God they can not be good. It is saying that because they have turned their back upon Him he has nothing more to do with them. "He gives them up" is saying he hands them over. He is no longer going to assist them in their lives. If they want to be separate form him and allow evil to overtake them so be it. Their free to do it but, they will have no place in His Kingdom. Their spirits will be seen as dead to Him as long as they choose to walk away from Him.

If you take a test and get 98% correct but a passing grade requires 100% it matters not that you had 98% of the questions right you still fail the exam.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

[Divine Insight]

Romans 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools.

Who's professing to be wise here but Paul himself?

How hypocritical is that.

He's professing that his religious beliefs are "wise" whilst accusing everyone else's religious beliefs are "foolish".

Who is he to pass judgement on who's a fool?

IMHO, he's the fool.

Jesus never prophesied the coming of Paul. On the contrary, Jesus warned us to beware of false prophets who would come in his name.

I see absolutely no reason whatsoever for not rejecting Paul as being a false prophet who is himself a fool. Jesus warned us that such fools would indeed be coming along.

This is another problem I have with Christianity. It's often far more about the babbling of Paul, and not of Jesus.

Paul proclaims that all are sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God.

But that flies in the face of the teaching of Jesus that he did not come for the righteous as the righteous are not sick and not in need of a physician, but instead he came to call the sinners to righteousness.

So Paul violates the teachings of Jesus anyway.

And about 75% of the New Testament is nothing more than the ramblings of Paul.

I see no reason to accept anything that Paul has to say as having anything at all to do with Jesus.

[bobingersoll]

My understanding is morality decreases as it gets further removed from religion.

Just going to jump in here and wonder out loud, since I haven't read any farther than this statement...and since it made me blow cracker crumbs all over my monitor.

If your understanding is correct, and the closer one is to religion, the higher their moral standards are, can you think of any examples that would give you just the opposite impression (meaning the closer one is to religion the lower their moral standards are)? I would be glad to offer some examples if you can't think of any. (HINT: Start with Genesis 1)

[bobingersoll]

Romans 1:28-31: (ESV)
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Doesn't this mean that if we do not believe in God, we will act as described?
And if so, can atheists not disprove this passage simply by being kind, considerate, and loving; refraining from the long list of evils above?

Is it fair to say the standard is not too high to reach; that all we have to do is meet or exceed the performance of the average Christian?

No. Atheists can not disprove the passage. They may not be evil, covetous, or have malice. They may not be full of envy nor murder, strife, deceit, or maliciousness. Likewise they may not be gossips, slanders, or haters of God. Nor insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil. They may not be foolish or heartless. However, they will be disobedient to their Father, that is God and likewise, will have no faith.

Actually, I am proof that Romans 1 is false (if it is to be applied to all of us who do "...not see fit to acknowledge God..." I am not disobedient to my parents.

[Divine Insight]

Actually, I am proof that Romans 1 is false (if it is to be applied to all of us who do "...not see fit to acknowledge God..." I am not disobedient to my parents.

See. I'm not the only one who caught Paul with his hand in the cookie jar.

He's spreading false witness against people he doesn't even know.

Shame be on Paul!

He's clearly a false prophet because you can tell a false prophet by the rotten stench of his fruit, and Paul's fruit is surely rotten.

[Tex]

You Fail!! Because you don't see what Lord Jesus is doing. You constantly are quoting before his death.....But it is after his death that a person can be made perfect. You see we all failed Christ at the cross. If you knew him, you would have never left him.

Left him?

Do you think Jesus needs a baby-sitter?

Jesus doesn't need me.

Besides I never rejected Jesus. I still support Jesus to this very day.

I simply reject the rumors that he's the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham.

Even Jesus renounced the teachings of the God of Abraham.

So who are you to tell me whether or not I "know" Jesus?

Why don't you let Jesus make up his on mind on that one?

Who are you to decide who is a disciple of Jesus?

You're judging my relationship with Jesus.

I'm not judging yours.

Let's get that straight right off the bat.

Tex: Yes! All men have sinned. It's pretty simple when you look at it. You are like the man who told Lord Jesus that he was perfect. But you know you are not and a liar if you say you are.

And now you're calling me a liar. Judging me again?

Clearly you aren't following the teachings of Jesus at all.

You're not supposed to be judging other people to be sinners.

According to the New Testament gossips Jesus himself asked me to be perfect as my father in heaven is perfect.

And now you're calling me a liar for merely doing as Jesus had requested?

With all due respect Tex, as far as I can see you must be affiliated with the anti-Christ or something. You're rejecting the teachings of Jesus, and calling one of his disciples a liar. That's not nice.

I am as perfect as Jesus in terms of being free from sin.

If you're truly a Christian I certainly hope you are too.

You really have no excuse at all to continue to sin if you have accepted Jesus as your LORD and SAVIOR.

Tex: Here we have a person creating his own Gospel, based on nothing anyone ever heard of, but I get the warning. Interesting.

One....You are a liar if you call yourself "sinless" Like you did a few post ago.

You absolutely have no idea what you are preaching and since Lord Jesus did die on the cross for only doing the work of God....Any god you choose to believe in, let it happen. Therefore you must hate any god that may exist. Because babies die too and god let it happen also. So which god do you believe in, that doesn't let these thing happen? So I can start believing in him too.

Now give me one of your sermons again.