What is truth

[Blastcat]

Hi guys and gals,

This one goes out to all of my theistic friends.
Apologists and simple Christian folks often talk about knowing "truth" a lot.. but now, I have to wonder what they mean by the term.

Could you help me out?
What is the truth, how do you define it, and do you care about it?

Some people don't care about the truth.
Some people say they love the truth, and that their beliefs are true.

Then I realize.. maybe I don't know what they MEAN when they use the word "TRUTH"

Smile

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 31 by Blastcat]


Moderator Warning

Hi, PghPanther

Great points!

( too bad I have to say BS.. but there you go )

Hello BC! I think that you have been on this forum long enough to be well aware of the rules and guidelines, prompting this warning. Offensive language is not acceptable, even in the abbreviated form.

I would also advise you to be careful with the overall tone of your posts. They can come across as quite condescending.

I believe you are capable of making your point, without the need for colorful language, or offensive tones.

Best wishes for a wonderful day!
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[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 34 by JehovahsWitness]

Hello again, JehovahsWitness

Blastcat,

You asked me how I got where I am, what method I used. I shared. What more do you want? You seem to have all you want, you're happy with hour theological ideological position, not looking for anything more. Fine excelleent, marvelous I'm happy for you.

I'm happy for you, too.

But I am not discussing what MY theology is, because, if you don't know already, I am NOT a theist. I am an atheist, I don't HAVE a theology.

When I ask a question, please understand that I am looking for the answer. If you don't give me one.. I notice.

You are here in defense of your theology, presumably. So.. defend it.
I don't presume that you are here to be part of decor, are you?

I presume that people entering into a debate forum will be willing to DEBATE.

Avoiding questions is not a good debate tactic, and does NOT increase one's credibility.

I sorry if you thought I was talking down to you, that was not my intention I was trying to emphasis the time and effort it has taken me to find what I have.

You got a little preachy there.. no harm. Apology accepted. Now, THAT DOES increase your credibility. Well done.

I take it you are happy with the conclusions you have come to, so I wish you every happiness with it (not being sarcastic, being sincere). What more do you want me to say?

Peace out,

All my conclusions, and I must insist, ALL of them are provisional conclusions. I don't pretend to know ANYTHING absolutely. With new data, I might have to CHANGE my conclusions, and I am quite ready and willing to do so. Most of the time, when I have changed my mind, I can call that LEARNING.

The MORE that I would like you do to is to answer the questions that I asked you before. I accused you of avoiding to answer them.

So, I will repeat the ones I think are the most valuable for me to understand your actual position.

1.What is your FUNDAMENTAL SOLID BASIS that you worked UP from to know what is true?
2. How did you actually come to the conclusion that creationism is true?
3. How do you know that God communicates directly with humans?
4. How do you know that the Bible itself is true?

5. And finally, what IS truth ? I'm still not too clear on that.

Hope you choose to participate.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 35 by JehovahsWitness]

Hey there, JehovahsWitness and others...

Okay, I'm going to come back to this, because... well I don't know really, let's just say that the spirit moves me to.

What was the FUNDAMENTAL SOLID BASIS that you worked UP from? Because, you didn't say.

I'm sorry I thought I was clear. The solid fundamental basis upon which everything else is based is that there exists a loving a Creator.

So, you BASE "truth" on your belief that there exists a loving creator?

I want to get that right.

I'm not interested in making SENSE out of the Bible.. I can't.
I've given up.

May I ask, did you at one time desire to "make sense" of the bible and found you could not? Was there something specific in the bible (specific passages or books) you wanted to "make sense of" but couldn't?

That's easy.. the more I read, the less it makes sense. People write LIBRARIES full of books trying to make sense out of the Bible, and those books don't all agree. Everyone has an opinion.. and then it stuck me.. so DO I.

And THEN it struck me yet again.. what makes their opinions better than someone else's? These theologians are ALL very knowledgeable... but they all don't interpret the Bible the same way. As a JW, you must admit that other Christians don't see eye to eye on all of your beliefs either, right?

Well, I get that.

ALL OF GENESIS.. which is the foundation for the whole story.. sounds INSANE.. for example. I can't pretend that ANY of it is true ... it sounds like a bunch of messed up myths all jammed together. The reason it doesn't make sense is because Bedouin Storytelling might not have been intended TO make sense. That's why this Believed Stuff makes such Bad Sense.

As myth, it works, as poetry, why not?.. as LOGIC or truth or HISTORY.. it's just a Bad Strategy and Bad Science that has led to a Belief System due to Bible Study.

and that makes 7 altogether

[marco]

You can go ahead and pretend anything you like

When I have a problem defending an idea, I don't pretend that it never happened ...
I deal with it.

I generally have no problem at all in explaining an idea. If I give a perfectly clear explanation then I believe there is nothing more I can do. Sometimes the resources at our disposal are woefully inadequate and in such cases I just accept my limitations and open my umbrella.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 40 by bjs]

Context matters.

Yeah, that's true. Context matters. Tell me your contexts and then explain what truth is in those contexts. I'm interested.

Sometimes the term truth can refer to any accurate statement. 2 + 2 = 4. The sky is blue. George Washington was the first president of the United States.

Ok, that's a simple one. I guess the only question would be how do we know if something is accurate? maybe 2+2 doesn't really equal to 4 and maybe George Bush Jr was the first.

So, how do we tease what is accurate from what is inaccurate?

There is also a philosophical concept of ultimate Truth. This was described in Platos allegory of the cave.

Ultimate Truth is a rich and complex idea that I cant fully explain this post. It points to the basis of reality, the purpose and meaning beyond philosophical materialism. It is the ground Being of what exists and what is good and what is worthwhile.

Wouldn't it be nice if we HAD such a thing? .. how would we find out?

When some people says say that Jesus is truth, as EJ pointed out in post 3, they are saying that Jesus is the incarnation of that ultimate Truth.

But what if I don't happen to believe in Platonic Realms?

The infinite Being, the One who is in all and above all, stepped in the physical world in a visible form. They are saying that the Truth, which is far beyond human comprehension, which created and sustains the world, is found in Christ Jesus.

THEY are or YOU are?... I'm interested only in what YOU are saying about what truth is TO YOU.. not what others might.

[JehovahsWitness]

1. What is your FUNDAMENTAL SOLID BASIS that you worked UP from to know what is true?

As I said, that there is indeed a Creator.
https://www.jw.org/finder?pub=lf&wtlocale=E&srcid=share

So, you BASE "truth" on your belief that there exists a loving creator?

Truth is not based on anything. Truth is absolute it doesn't need anything but itself to stand. Finding "spiritual truth"(see #5) is dependent on accepting that there is a Creator

2. How did you actually come to the conclusion that creationism is true?

I am not a "creationist" I believe that the universe has a creator that's not the same thing.
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... sm-belief/

I came to have confidence that the must be a creator through studying the natural world.


3. How do you know that God communicates directly with humans?

He rarely communicates directly. He communicates mainly though his written word the bible, thorugh his holy spirit and through moving individuals and manipulating situations in response to sincere prayers. I believe this to be true because He has used all these indirect methods with me at various time.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/402015921


4. How do you know that the Bible itself is true?

It contains information that cannot possibly be from human origin such as prophecies proven to have be fulfilled.


5. And finally, what IS truth ?

Truth is that which is reliable, sure or factual, that which is a reality. "Spiritual truth" is refering to the accurate information that meets the above criteria that comes from God.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007728



JW

Supplementary information available from links provided.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 28 by JehovahsWitness]

but once convinced there is indeed a Creator nothing can shake that conviction - you cannot unring a bell.

This statement is false. There are many people, such as myself, who were once convinced there was indeed a Creator, but then that conviction got shaken. Are you honestly saying that once someone believes there is a creator, they will NEVER say otherwise?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 31 by Blastcat]

OH that blew my mind.

God HIMSELF could be DECEIVED....WoW...
Is that a new spin on the Cartesian Demon?

Matrix WITHIN a Matrix?

Famouse Youtuber animator Darkmater2525 did a cartoon based on just that premise.



and

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 46 by JehovahsWitness]

JW you contradict yourself.

. What is your FUNDAMENTAL SOLID BASIS that you worked UP from to know what is true?

As I said, that there is indeed a Creator.

I'm basically treating this as being an axiom. (If it isn't, please correct me). Your axiom is that there is indeed a creator (and I think you said in a prior post that this creator is loving).

Truth is not based on anything. Truth is absolute it doesn't need anything but itself to stand.

So I was right. An axiom then.

I came to have confidence that the must be a creator through studying the natural world.

Now here's the contradiction. If "There is a Creator" is an axiom, something that is assumed to be true (your foundational solid basis), then why oh why would you study the world and 'find out' there is a creator?
You're describing a presupposed bias here. 'There is a Creator' is assumed on your part, it's your foundational solid basis, and when you go out into the world and study the world...lo and behold, you 'find' there is a creator!
Your study is rigged because of your axiom.

[JehovahsWitness]

. What is your FUNDAMENTAL SOLID BASIS that you worked UP from to know what is true?

As I said, that there is indeed a Creator.

I'm basically treating this as being an axiom. (If it isn't, please correct me).

No I don't believe so. I had to google what an "axiom" is but my understanding it is an assumption taken without proof to be a self evident truth. If that is correct then no I don't believe so (for me to be sure you'll have to explain to be the difference between an axiom and a reality).

In any case, the discussion was basically "how does one find religious/spiritual truth?". My starting point was that we need to know that such a thing exists before searching for it. If there is no God then there is no (absolute) religious truth, just (objective) opinion. If there is a God we could find truth with Him.

Now, knowing what we're looking for where should one start? It has to be in finding the answer to the question "Is there a Creator?" My point was that this is the first question that must be answered and based on the answer one can move on to other questions.

Looking back it has occured to me that possibly Blastcat was thinking that when I refered to the above being the basis upon which all the other steps are built, he (and possibly your good self) are assuming that I think the ANSWER to this quesiton is self evident and not to be found through logical examination of the available evidence (ie an axiom) this is not the case. As with everything else one has to examine the information available in order to come to an informed conclusion on the matter of the existence of a Creator.

Taking a step back then, I suppose I should have stated what is imo a self evident reality, and that is: we (humans) are here. If there was a "stage" in the reasoning that I failed to stipulate (because I thought it was self evident and unnecessary to state) that is it. We are here, we got here somehow: let the search for how begin. Based on the answer to that question, one can proceed to search for religious truth or alternatively accept that such a thing in the absolute cannot possibly exist

Hope that clarifies what I'm trying to say,


JW