Christian 'Drop-outs'

[OpenYourEyes]

For Discussion or Debate:
How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Just to elaborate on some terms and why I started this thread...
A Christian drop-out stems from the same idea of high school drop-out, in that both groups left something prematurely. The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections. As such, I tend to not spend much time answering their every objection and instead I help lay a foundation for them (in their thinking) where they can find the answers themselves because all the main problem boils down to is a problem dealing with doubt.

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 23 by OpenYourEyes]

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

This quite clearly is an attempt at talking about myself, since recently, you and I were talking and I mentioned an answer my former religion teacher gave me as to why there are no female priests in Roman Catholicism. I mentioned that at the time, I didn't pursue this topic. I mentioned dropping the religion.
However, in your OP, although you do not name me, you portray me as someone who NEVER put in any effort whatsoever into research of religion (which was true at the time I asked the teacher that question) and even worse you say that I DROPPED OUT OF MY CLASS.
Notice here that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has responded on this thread has criticised your actions here, even those who believe there is a God.
I'm still waiting for my apology.

I talk to many forum members and I'm a member of several different forums, so I don't recall it being you that referenced in my OP. Please stick to the details that are part of my point and not the name of a forum member.

I will not apologize because I've done nothing wrong. If anything, much of your post is off-topic so I request that you please stay on topic.

I disagree. Rikuoamero is dead on in his remarks and you have demonstrated you literally do not know what you are talking about because those arguing with you have demonstrated they know their Bible and have studiously researched the problems wth the Christian belief system.

[Danmark]

Wrong. Your entire OP and most of your follow up arguments have been ad hominem. You tell people 'if they probed deeper they'd' [agree with you]; that they 'demonstrate they haven't' researched sufficiently. You have offered no argument supported by objective facts, no analysis, just broadsides claiming people who don't agree with you must not have thought about it sufficiently. There are hundreds of arguments on this forum, all supported by research including scripture that demonstrate your entire premise is false.

The evidence that I could present would involve me quoting the post of members from this forum and other forums and I'm not so sure that people would be willing to read through all of my examples. Usually, when people stereotype Christians, I don't recall them having to go through and cite every example, although I at least cited one example and I've brought the issue up on several other threads. Either way, even if my empirical examples are lacking (part of the reason is to stay on topic), I still have offered plenty reasonable deductions to support my point.

Also, keep in mind that my point does not apply to all former Christians. It only applies to those who left the faith, and from what I've been able to gather, they left prematurely or based on unreasonable reasons.

And just to stay on topic, can you answer the two debate topic questions that are clearly posted in my opening post?!

You are the one 'stereotyping Christians,' the ones you claim 'dropped out' before studying sufficiently. What you actually appear to be saying is that anyone who disagrees with you on the subject is ignorant and not diligent. You have not backed this claim with facts. However I have supported the reverse by citing to the arguments here AND the many books by former Christians criticizing your version of your 'faith.' We can add Bart Ehrman to the long list. You may disagree with him, but you cannot say he has not studied the Bible and the history of the church.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 39 by OpenYourEyes]

The evidence that I could present would involve me quoting the post of members from this forum and other forums and I'm not so sure that people would be willing to read through all of my examples.

In your OP, you said, in the last paragraph

One recent example is of a former Christian...

You couldn't have quoted whoever it was you were talking about (more than likely myself, because what are the odds that two people talked to OpenYourEyes around the same time about the same topic, of poor answers from teachers regarding Christianty?)? Why not? If you're going to mention a single person, however obliquely, why no quote?
Whenever I reference someone in my opening posts, I either state flat out that I will not be naming them, or I do AND I give a quote, to show what it is I'm talking about.
Methinks that the reason you didn't do this on this thread is because if you had quoted me, you then wouldn't have anything to use to say "See!? See how little he researched! Why he even dropped out of class, it says so right...here...uhh..."
You would have failed at portraying me as someone who drops classes because
1) Not once have I ever said I did do that
2) Not once have I ever dropped classes, period.

[OpenYourEyes]

[Replying to post 38 by rikuoamero]

I actually went through the trouble of tracking down the person whose story I referenced. It was from an email exchange I had with a college friend just before the Summer. I know if I was referring to you, then I would've had no problem quoting the exact post as I've done on this forum before. Hopefully this clears things up and the ad-hominems cease.

Can you also answer the following:

For Discussion or Debate:
How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?

Lets discuss and debate this issue.

[jgh7]

My point about Christian drop outs was not meant to include all Christians who leave the faith, but rather it's a term I came up with to label those who left the faith for reasons that could have been avoided or resolved. They left the faith prematurely, in other words. One common scenario that I encounter are atheists who leave Christianity because of some nagging doubt or objection, but then they fail to do any serious searching for answers.

What amount of study/research is required when properly deciding whether to have belief or dismiss belief in Christianity? When is it acceptable vs. premature? When is it done for reasons that could have been resolved, and when is it done for adequate reasons? When are nagging doubts and objections valid, and when do they require more searching?

I don't know who these "drop-outs" are anymore.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 38 by rikuoamero]

I actually went through the trouble of tracking down the person whose story I referenced. It was from an email exchange I had with a college friend just before the Summer. I know if I was referring to you, then I would've had no problem quoting the exact post as I've done on this forum before. Hopefully this clears things up and the ad-hominems cease.

Can you also answer the following:

For Discussion or Debate:
How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?

Lets discuss and debate this issue.

Personally speaking, I don't believe you. The odds are just too high that two people would be talking to the same person, within the same time frame, about poor answers received from former teachers. At the very least, if true, you could quote the email exchange, while censoring names.
I'm not going to answer anymore on this thread, at least...maybe not for today. I still feel a bit too angry.
Try asking me tomorrow (Tuesday).

[OnceConvinced]

They left the faith prematurely, in other words. One common scenario that I encounter are atheists who leave Christianity because of some nagging doubt or objection, but then they fail to do any serious searching for answers.

Who is to determine what is premature? How can you be so sure it's premature?

Don't forget Jesus has been promising for over 2000 years now that he was going to return. Would it be premature for us to determine it was a false prophecy? If not how many years should we wait before we reject the prophecy as nonsense and move on?

We are all at different points in our life and for some what others may deem "Premature" may not be premature for the one asking the questions.

When certain atheists keep raising objections that inaccurately portrays Christianity

Who determines what accurately portrays Christianity?

then I can only presume that they lack an understanding of Christianity, philosophy, and science.

What if you are the one with the misunderstanding? Who makes the judgement call here? Perhaps it's just that the person has a different perspective to you?

Also, it's likely that this misunderstanding existed before they left Christianity and influenced their decision.

I very much doubt that. As I said in my last post, just because we may see something a certain way now does not at all mean we saw it that way when we were Christians. For me now my views are radically different to when I was a Christian.

Most would reach the same conclusion as you if they only do a superficial examination but if you probed deeper you'd find out that the differences are not that great when it comes to the important characteristics of Christianity. For instance, the overwhelming majority of Christian denominations believe in the divinity of Christ, the resurrection, the nature of God, the authority of Scripture, they share the same Bible canon, etc. Dividing over what day to worship, as Seventh-day Adventists are distinguished for has little impact on understanding the core messages of Christianity.

There are huge differences even with he core tenets, which is why there are so many thousands of denominations many accusing other denominations of being false Christians. All one has to do is spend some time on this forum to see the lack of unity amongst Christians when it comes to important characteristics. There are even threads on this forum asking what it takes to consider yourself saved or a "true Christian". None of you seem to be able to agree on this! I can point you to one thread in particular if you wish. It's undeniable proof that even the most important characteristics of Christianity are not agreed upon by Christians.

[rikuoamero]

My point about Christian drop outs was not meant to include all Christians who leave the faith, but rather it's a term I came up with to label those who left the faith for reasons that could have been avoided or resolved. They left the faith prematurely, in other words. One common scenario that I encounter are atheists who leave Christianity because of some nagging doubt or objection, but then they fail to do any serious searching for answers.

What amount of study/research is required when properly deciding whether to have belief or dismiss belief in Christianity? When is it acceptable vs. premature? When is it done for reasons that could have been resolved, and when is it done for adequate reasons? When are nagging doubts and objections valid, and when do they require more searching?

I don't know who these "drop-outs" are anymore.

In my case, the straw that broke the camel's back was being told at my Confirmation (a Roman Catholic ceremony that you go through aged around 12), we were now filled with the Holy Spirit, or words to that effect.
I of course felt no different. I didn't notice some immaterial spirit taking up residence within me. No whisperings of a god were in my ear. Nothing. I remember looking around in confusion wondering what the heck the bishop was talking about.
And that's when it hit me. "This bishop is talking nonsense. Can it be...that the rest of what he says is nonsense too?"

[Divine Insight]

How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

Without rewriting the Bible and removing all the outrageous and clearly false claims that it makes I wouldn't have a clue what to suggest here.

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?

Well, obviously standard Christian apologies for the Bible aren't effective. The mere fact that this is a problem in Christianity points to a religion that simply isn't convincing. Clearly they already had good reasons to "drop-out" in the first place.

In fact, calling them "drop-outs" is already a very derogatory position to take toward them that can only insure that they aren't going to want hear any more arguments from the person who has already labeled them as "drop-outs". You're never going to win "ex-Christians" back over to Christianity by accusing them of being "drop-outs".

You're also not going to win any favor with them by accusing them of not having studied or considered the issues deeply. Why begin your evangelism by casting insults at them? Where is there any wisdom in that?

One thing that you could try to do is find a convincing apologetic school of thought to offer for Christianity. You've already got your work cut out for you there since Christendom itself is extremely divisive and the Christian apologists and evangelists can't even convince each other of their disagreeing views of this clearly troubled religion.

Which Christian sect do you even support?

Are you suggesting that Protestants are "Catholic Drop Outs" who have stopped believing in Catholicism?

Perhaps if you make clear which version of the Christian Fairy Tale you feel is the correct version then you could move forward to asking people to consider your favorite version of the mythology.

Short of that the term "Christianity" is pretty meaningless.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 32:

It is the job of scientists to cater (or adapt) to reality (presuming that God is part of reality) and not the other way around.

No. Scientists are not bound to show the Christian speaks truth.

When science is not able to do such, just as it is not able to do for pre-scientific past historical events, then it's only reasonable to NOT expect science to be used or to call that the time-past or history is the problem.

Nor is it reasonable to expect the Christian to show he speaks truth.

There are non-scientific approaches that can be used to establish validity to some degree. Clearly the dichotomy is not between science and "wishful thinking".

Naw, the dichotomy is between showing one speaks truth, and a failure of it.

Alas, the Christian can only complain about a "failure" of the scientific method when it comes to their goofy, irrational, illogical claims.

I guarantee it, if the scientific method ever offered support for Christian claims, the Christian'd be him one science loving son of a so-and-so.