Christian 'Drop-outs'

[OpenYourEyes]

For Discussion or Debate:
How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?
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Just to elaborate on some terms and why I started this thread...
A Christian drop-out stems from the same idea of high school drop-out, in that both groups left something prematurely. The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections. As such, I tend to not spend much time answering their every objection and instead I help lay a foundation for them (in their thinking) where they can find the answers themselves because all the main problem boils down to is a problem dealing with doubt.

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

[OpenYourEyes]

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A Christian drop-out stems from the same idea of high school drop-out, in that both groups left something prematurely.

Unsupported opinion noted.

That part of my statement is a definition and not a claim so saying it's an opinion does not apply.

It has been about sixty-five years since I dropped out of religion. I have wasted no time fantasizing, imagining, praying, hoping, wishing, worshiping, making excuses, feeling guilty, or performing rituals. Instead, I have actually DONE things, accomplished many objectives, live(d) a full / interesting / satisfying / fulfilling life. Those who attempt to tell me it would be better with religion are at a total loss to show me how that would be true.

Did you narrow down the reasons for leaving? And more relevant to my point here, did you bother to do any real research on the issues that you were doubting?

The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely.

Grandiose generalization, limited perspective, personal opinion, unsubstantiated.

Nope, it's part of the definition/description. You can only call it a claim at the point that I apply it to someone.

It is a cheap shot by Apologists to claim that those who “leave the faith� (Apostates) do so for shallow reasons. Reading www.clergyproject.org confirms that many who have sincerely studied related issues leave Christianity for very valid reasons. Many who debate here as Non-Theists spent decades as fervent believers.

Don't even attempt to cheapen them by claiming that they left for shallow reasons.

Saying that such and such person spent decades doing such and such does not impress me. There are also many people who spend decades trying to get rich and fail while others who KNOW how to do it effectively get rich rather quickly. And by analogy, some people don't know how to deal with doubt or how/what to research. You'll be surprised. I've had forum members, can't remember if here or another forum, claim to have been in school for religious studies, just to find out that they chose to consult only ONE source to address their doubt. And then when that ONE source failed them, they drew a negative conclusion which only compounds from there.

I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing.

Stick around here and debate some of the strong debaters who are Ex-Christians (and those were not every religious) and actually read what they have to say – without god glasses fogging the matter.

I've stuck around and this forum has added to the evidence that confirms my point. You expect me to believe that every former Christian left because they did their research but yet they somehow can't even articulate a valid objection to Christianity? This clearly shows a lack of understanding of Christianity that is reflected in their objections, and if they are ignorant of Christianity as an atheist (the present), then most likely they were ignorant of Christianity while they were Christian (the past).

There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections.

My reason for rejecting Christianity (shared with many) is its total failure to produce verifiable evidence that its stories and claims are truthful and accurate. I have “researched� this for ten years of membership in this Forum debating any Theist who is willing – and have yet to encounter ANYTHING more than “Take my word for it (or his or this book)� – or “Seek an emotional experience�.

Researched what exactly? Was your research multi-disciplinary or did it just involve looking into how science can answer the issue for you? If the latter (just science), as I suspect is the case based on your style of debates/demands to theists, then I can see exactly where you went wrong.

Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

Christendom's “answer� appears to be “pray harder, read the Bible more, go to retreats, keep believing so you can go to heaven� NOT check the accuracy of Bible tales and church dogma – NOT learn about the authorship of gospels (and the rest of the Bible). Not compare what is said to what is presently known of the real world.

Notice that in all of your long list here and earlier, not once did you mention that you looked into natural theology, philosophy, history - all of these containing part of the intellectual aspects of Christianity. This is very telling to say the least and it only confirms my point.

How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

I see no reason to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith. Preachers have a vested interest in maintaining membership and believers may have an interest in keeping the in-group large. What other reasons apply?

I'm only interested in preventing Christians from leaving the faith prematurely or for unreasonable reasons.

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?

“Welcome to the liberated group made up of people who have learned that life has meaning and purpose without depending on invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural entities (that cannot be shown to be anything more than imaginary).�

All I see here is a statement derived from unsupported/unsubstantiated ideology - i.e. metaphysical naturalism.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1 by OpenYourEyes]

Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

OpenYourEyes, if you apologize and then deign to ASK me about my life with Christianity and/or my reasons for leaving, I will be only too happy to divulge.

Exactly! The OP is itself an insulting assumption and an example of the 'Christian' attitude that convinces people to leave the Church.

The opening post is my theory, based on many observations on this forums and others, to explain why some former Christians claim to leave Christianity because of reason but yet they can not even portray Christianity accurately. I've attributed this common occurrence as being a result of Christians who lack a good foundation for their belief and also lack the resources (intellectually-based) to handle their doubts and they subsequently drop-out or leave prematurely.

I know that firsthand that handling doubt and having the resources (or the willingness to research) works because that's how I've handled my doubts. That's also part of how some atheists have made the transition into becoming Christians. So clearly my point has some validity.

And there's the rub, in the word 'some.' Some people don't give decisions about their faith or their rejection of their faith a great deal of thought or research. Others do.
The problem with your opening post is that without foundation or supporting data you concluded your assessment was the 'usual' case:

The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections.

[emphasis applied]
You've offered ZERO support for your contention that these claims of yours represent the 'usual' case. You make this claim despite the ample evidence on this forum that many here can well reason their case against your faith and that they have great understanding of the Bible and the issues presented by the Christian faith. This is even reflected in the guidelines for this very forum you are privileged to write in:

6. Realize that most participants here are strong debaters and have a vast knowledge of Christianity and the Bible (including non-theists). If you make any claims, be ready to support your claims with evidence if asked. Non-Biblical evidence would go far among non-theists.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 491#213491

[OpenYourEyes]

Like I mentioned to Zzyzx and many others, if you want to investigate God using science then you will likely be frustrated in the end.

I'm perfectly content having examined various religious claims, only to see just how empty they are. That Christianity is not supportable by the scientific method is a problem for the Christian, not the scientist.

It is the job of scientists to cater (or adapt) to reality (presuming that God is part of reality) and not the other way around. When science is not able to do such, just as it is not able to do for pre-scientific past historical events, then it's only reasonable to NOT expect science to be used or to call that the time-past or history is the problem.

I recommend from experience of mine and many others, that you will likely become convinced of God when you rely on a multi-disciplinary approach that incorporates science, philosophy, religion, history, experience, etc.

You left out wishful thinking.

There are non-scientific approaches that can be used to establish validity to some degree. Clearly the dichotomy is not between science and "wishful thinking".

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 30 by OpenYourEyes]

You'll be surprised. I've had forum members, can't remember if here or another forum, claim to have been in school for religious studies, just to find out that they chose to consult only ONE source to address their doubt. And then when that ONE source failed them, they drew a negative conclusion which only compounds from there.

Wow. Is this you trying to say you've forgotten all about me, the person you talked about in your OP?

You expect me to believe that every former Christian left because they did their research but yet they somehow can't even articulate a valid objection to Christianity?

Z never said anything of the sort. He suggested you talk to some of the strong debaters on this site who are ex-Christians. When has Z or anyone else for that matter EVER made the claim that EVERY former Christian is such after having done extensive research?

This clearly shows a lack of understanding of Christianity that is reflected in their objections, and if they are ignorant of Christianity as an atheist (the present), then most likely they were ignorant of Christianity while they were Christian (the past).

Yes, I, who is now a former Christian, didn't understand Christianity in the past, despite the fact I was educated in a series of three Christian schools, run by religious orders, and had priests as my teachers (in some classes, such as religious studies).
/sarcmarc

not once did you mention that you looked into natural theology, philosophy, history - all of these containing part of the intellectual aspects of Christianity. This is very telling to say the least and it only confirms my point.

Dunno about Z, but in my case I did. I did extensive research. I don't agree with much, if anything, that claims the God of Christianity exists.
Then again, it's not like you care about the facts? You took a single episode out of my life, where I quite explicitly stated that I didn't press my teacher on a single issue, and wove a complete fiction where somehow I didn't press my teacher(s) on ANYTHING, and dropped out of classes.

I'm only interested in preventing Christians from leaving the faith prematurely or for unreasonable reasons.

If I could, I'd go back in time, and tell my past Christian self never to look to you for guidance, because you weave fictions. Who are you to say what is an 'unreasonable reason' to leave Christianity, when one of the very ex-Christians you lie about?

All I see here is a statement derived from unsupported/unsubstantiated ideology - i.e. metaphysical naturalism.

So what...it's not possible to find meaning and purpose in life UNLESS you depend on an invisible supernatural spirit?

I notice that while you were careful not to name me directly in your OP, you have replied a few times on this thread...and have yet to respond to me. I wonder why. Well, not really, but hey, let's hear you out.
Still waiting for the apology for the mis-characterisation.

[Danmark]

When certain atheists keep raising objections that inaccurately portrays Christianity then I can only presume that they lack an understanding of Christianity, philosophy, and science. Also, it's likely that this misunderstanding existed before they left Christianity and influenced their decision.

There ya go - attack, slander, slur, and libel anyone who rejects your stupid arguments.

I have not attacked, slandered, slurred, nor libeled anyone. This is clearly an ad hominem.

Wrong. Your entire OP and most of your follow up arguments have been ad hominem. You tell people 'if they probed deeper they'd' [agree with you]; that they 'demonstrate they haven't' researched sufficiently. You have offered no argument supported by objective facts, no analysis, just broadsides claiming people who don't agree with you must not have thought about it sufficiently. There are hundreds of arguments on this forum, all supported by research including scripture that demonstrate your entire premise is false.

[OpenYourEyes]

[Replying to post 23 by OpenYourEyes]

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

This quite clearly is an attempt at talking about myself, since recently, you and I were talking and I mentioned an answer my former religion teacher gave me as to why there are no female priests in Roman Catholicism. I mentioned that at the time, I didn't pursue this topic. I mentioned dropping the religion.
However, in your OP, although you do not name me, you portray me as someone who NEVER put in any effort whatsoever into research of religion (which was true at the time I asked the teacher that question) and even worse you say that I DROPPED OUT OF MY CLASS.
Notice here that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has responded on this thread has criticised your actions here, even those who believe there is a God.
I'm still waiting for my apology.

I talk to many forum members and I'm a member of several different forums, so I don't recall it being you that referenced in my OP. Please stick to the details that are part of my point and not the name of a forum member.

I will not apologize because I've done nothing wrong. If anything, much of your post is off-topic so I request that you please stay on topic.

[OnceConvinced]

I speak as someone who went from student to teacher and remained a teacher for many years before I "dropped out".

One has to be careful when talking to former Christians that they don't jump to conclusions. For instance, many times I will argue points about the bible that I would never have argued with as a Christian. My perspectives have changed. What I see now, what I draw from the bible, what I "understand" is way different to what I "understood" as a Christian.

It irritates me when a Christian tries to say "It's no wonder you are no longer believer. You misunderstood the bible". No sir, when I was a Christian I understood it in the same way as you do now. It's just now I see it differently. You will find that is the case with many ex-Christians. It's not a matter of misunderstanding. It's a matter of a change of perspective.

Many of us have come to know that the bible can be taken many different ways dependent on your perspective. Just because one has a different perspective to another does not mean its an incorrect one or a "lack of understanding".

Until Christians can come to unity on what the bible is teaching, they really have no right to tell another person with a different perspective that, "you lack understanding". That's just hot air being spoken in a religion where no two believers can agree on what their holy book is saying.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 23 by OpenYourEyes]

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

This quite clearly is an attempt at talking about myself, since recently, you and I were talking and I mentioned an answer my former religion teacher gave me as to why there are no female priests in Roman Catholicism. I mentioned that at the time, I didn't pursue this topic. I mentioned dropping the religion.
However, in your OP, although you do not name me, you portray me as someone who NEVER put in any effort whatsoever into research of religion (which was true at the time I asked the teacher that question) and even worse you say that I DROPPED OUT OF MY CLASS.
Notice here that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has responded on this thread has criticised your actions here, even those who believe there is a God.
I'm still waiting for my apology.

I talk to many forum members and I'm a member of several different forums, so I don't recall it being you that referenced in my OP, but it's the details that are part of my point and not the name of a forum member.

I will not apologize because I've done nothing wrong. If anything, much of your post is off-topic so I request that you please stay on topic.

Ok, come on. You have to at least see why rikuoamero feels like the one being talked about since just 1 day earlier you were discussing this with him:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... p?p=802197

How hard is it to say "This was actually from ...., but I'm sorry if you thought I was talking about you. I apologize for the confusion."

Or if it was really rikuoamero, just fess up and apologize. What's the big deal?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 37 by benchwarmer]

Exactly. Thank you. What are the odds that OpenYourEyes, on two separate forums, was talking to two ex-Christians and, as he put it in the OP

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter.

?

OpenYourEyes had a back and forth conversation on Saturday with me that lasted for about ten comments, spread out over the course of fourteen hours. I find it preposterous that the VERY NEXT DAY, OYE would write a new thread and have in the OP a reference to a conversation with an ex-Christian about an inadequate answer that a former teacher gave about an aspect of Christianity, and that OYE would forget who this is all about, or that someone else on some other website said something to OYE recently that was basically the same thing.

[OpenYourEyes]

Wrong. Your entire OP and most of your follow up arguments have been ad hominem. You tell people 'if they probed deeper they'd' [agree with you]; that they 'demonstrate they haven't' researched sufficiently. You have offered no argument supported by objective facts, no analysis, just broadsides claiming people who don't agree with you must not have thought about it sufficiently. There are hundreds of arguments on this forum, all supported by research including scripture that demonstrate your entire premise is false.

The evidence that I could present would involve me quoting the post of members from this forum and other forums and I'm not so sure that people would be willing to read through all of my examples. Usually, when people stereotype Christians, I don't recall them having to go through and cite every example, although I at least cited one example and I've brought the issue up on several other threads. Either way, even if my empirical examples are lacking (part of the reason is to stay on topic), I still have offered plenty reasonable deductions to support my point.

Also, keep in mind that my point does not apply to all former Christians. It only applies to those who left the faith prematurely or due to unreasonable reasons.

And just to stay on topic, can you answer the two debate topic questions that are clearly posted in my opening post?!