Can we excuse Leviticus?

[marco]

Having watched a film, based on fact, where a young gay man was brutally beaten to death I turned to the enlightenment of Leviticus 20:13.


"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them."

This is apparently God speaking, the architect of universal harmony. Can this verse ever be justified? Apparently so. I learned that if the entire world resorted to homosexuality then Jesus would not have been able to come and redeem mankind. When Jesus did come, the law passed into disuse.

If the entire world had decided to be celibate, that too would have impeded Christ's arrival, so celibacy should also be an abomination. Maybe it is in some quarters though Paul didn't seem to think so.

Do we: Ignore Leviticus and any other bits of the Bible that seem brutal?
Do we say the old law is no longer needed?
Do we say that if a book inspires such hate, it is a bad book?

[JehovahsWitness]

There is nothing in the spirit of Christ that warrants this.

What concretely are you refering to when you speak about "the spirit of Christ", if not what you conclude about the man from what is reported about him by the gospel writers? ( I focus on the gospel accounts because secular history tells us little about him but that he was executed as a criminal).

If you are attempting to build a case against Jesus explicit commands as to church procedure based on other reports of his words and actions as recorded in other gospel books, feel free to present your scriptural evidence, I'd be interested in reading the references.

If by the "spirit of Christ" you are merely referring to a vague feeling you have about the man based on the childhood church experiences or stories your mother told you coming back from mass, thank you for sharing.



JW

[marco]

If by the "spirit of Christ" you are merely referring to a vague feeling you have about the man based on the childhood church experiences or stories your mother told you coming back from mass, thank you for sharing.

Foolish Marco! I was under the impression that Christ said it was easy to love our friends, but we must love those who are our enemies. I read somewhere about Christ explaining the meaning of a good neighbour. And did he not speak of forgiving seventy times seven? And when others wanted to condemn and punish the woman taken in adultery, did he not say that he had no condemnation? But if you want me to believe that Christ taught cruelty, rejection, hardness who am I to oppose you?

I believe that if a gay youth touched the garments of Christ he would not be turned into another person, but would see that he is welcome in Christ's eyes. Those that deny this, I think, are the whited sepulchres Christ condemned.

It would appear I am painting Christ as a loving, caring merciful being. How do you paint him?

[1213]

Interesting that this contradicts JW’s opinion about the validity of the ‘old law’. Perhaps something for the ‘doctrine & dogma’ forum to debate amongst the Christian community?

Bible says:

Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully,
1 Tim. 1:8

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

So, I think it should be clear that the Law is good and valid. By what I know, the difference is that some think there is a law that tells we must judge. Bible doesn’t give right to judge for all.

It seems only the non-theists who have a consistent, morally justifiable position on this issue.

Interesting, I don’t see that.

Also interesting to consider how laws supposedly ‘not based on hate’ can be reconciled with the act of putting people to death. Are you suggesting that God in fact loves gay people, and his clear directive regarding their execution is driven by love?

I have understood that God’s judgments are based on what is good and right, not to emotions. And I have understood that love means in the Bible that person cares without conditions. And I believe God cares of all, and that is why He doesn’t allow unrighteous to live forever. If unrighteous would live forever, they would make life eternal suffering for all and that is why I believe God doesn’t allow unrighteous to live forever.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

[JehovahsWitness]

Quite apart from anything else, they contradict Christ's instruction to love others, be they Samaritans, tax collectors or pagans.

You raised a similar point back in November 2017, my answer remains the same, namely that discipline is entirely compatible with love. See link for details.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 71#p895871



JW

[William]

[Replying to post 42 by ]

marco: But if you want me to believe that Christ taught cruelty, rejection, hardness who am I to oppose you?

William: Are you being ironic and is the question rhetorical?

[marco]

[Replying to post 42 by ]

marco: But if you want me to believe that Christ taught cruelty, rejection, hardness who am I to oppose you?

William: Are you being ironic and is the question rhetorical?

Yes, I think what I said qualifies as irony, William. And yes, the question is asked rhetorically. I don't think Christ taught anything of the sort. But those who hurt others, including family members because they seem sinful or, horror of horrors (irony) might be gay, are following Christ only if they think Christ advocated cruelty.

[marco]

You raised a similar point back in November 2017, my answer remains the same, namely that discipline is entirely compatible with love.

Yes, the woman who drove her son to suicide through her strict observance of Leviticus shared your opinion. But I suppose when we tell ourselves we're right, consequences don't matter.

[JehovahsWitness]

You raised a similar point back in November 2017, my answer remains the same, namely that discipline is entirely compatible with love.

Yes, the woman who drove her son to suicide through her strict observance of Leviticus shared your opinion.

I have no idea what woman you are referring to , but I do believe I have explained more than once in this thread that I do not believe we are under any of the Mosaic laws including that of Leviticus. If this woman believed as I do she most certainly would not adhere to a strict observance of an abolished law.

... I suppose when we tell ourselves we're right, consequences don't matter.

As for the link between convictions and consequences I, like you (correct me if this doesnt apply to you) do my best to verify what I believe is true and adhere to priciples of love, mutual respect and tolerance. Including refraining from mockery which, since we cannot know the mental and emotional state of another person, may have dramatic consequences.



JW

[Clownboat]

At the time the law was in question was operative, yes absolutely.

An odd opinion. An act is good or bad depending on the day of the week or the year.

I was not refering to the act, homosexuals acts were, are and always will be bad.

How and by what means God deems fit to punish said badness depends on the the time and circumstances. For the nation of Israel, which was a strict theocracy, death was to be immediate as administered by the nations judges. Christians were not living in an independent theocracy, they would be scattered amongst various nations and were not given authority to execute those that engage in them, leaving any evental need for execution in Gods hands.

I wonder who "urges" this?

We believe Almighty God does as communicated by his inspired word the bible.

JWs "disfellowship" rather than leaving it up to God..

When I said leave it up to God I was specifically referring to any eventual executions. This doesnt equate to tolerating such behaviours inside the Congregation. Anyone who unrepentently practised such things is, following the bible directive, to be put outside the Christian congregation. Which is what we do by disfellowshipping them.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

I read this post and all I see is humans treating other humans poorly.
People will justify their poor treatment of others because of claims they place on a god concept.

The behavior above is ONLY JW's taking action against other humans. No god has been shown to approve of how they are treating our fellow humans and no actions from said god have been observed. Only the actions of humans are shown to be at work here, but let the discrimination continue, praise be to god.

Clearly, it is not being left up to god like has been claimed (I'm sure the saying is just an empty religious platitude anyway). It is 100% human interactions going on. It takes faith as a mechanism to pretend that a god is behind it all and approves their behavior. Most societies know better. I wish the gods would catch up.

[Clownboat]

I was not refering to the act, homosexuals acts were, are and always will be bad.

Is this your opinion?

All my posts express my opinion. I believe, as I said on the outset, that God has the right to dictate what is good and bad, ie what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. The bible is clear on the topic and as one of Jehovahs Witnesses I whole heartedly agree with it.



JW

If only the gods were out here dictating.
They are not and we all know this, therefore logic dictates that they don't care or don't exist.

Humans do care and have developed societies.
Virtially all societies developed god concepts to to dictate human mandates. I don't see how your god/religion is any different. I do notice all his 'actions' are actually just humans acting and using the god concept as justification though. This informs me that humans are behind the concept, not some supreme being that hates it when weiners touch for example.

I find it amusing to consider the idea that a creator god created the vast universe (just consider how large it is) and he is up there in heaven mad at humans for touching themselves (for example).