Can we excuse Leviticus?

[marco]

Having watched a film, based on fact, where a young gay man was brutally beaten to death I turned to the enlightenment of Leviticus 20:13.


"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them."

This is apparently God speaking, the architect of universal harmony. Can this verse ever be justified? Apparently so. I learned that if the entire world resorted to homosexuality then Jesus would not have been able to come and redeem mankind. When Jesus did come, the law passed into disuse.

If the entire world had decided to be celibate, that too would have impeded Christ's arrival, so celibacy should also be an abomination. Maybe it is in some quarters though Paul didn't seem to think so.

Do we: Ignore Leviticus and any other bits of the Bible that seem brutal?
Do we say the old law is no longer needed?
Do we say that if a book inspires such hate, it is a bad book?

[JehovahsWitness]

None of the above: we accept the bible as the word of God and accept God's right to say what behaviours are or are not acceptable.

So then you agree that homosexuals should be put to death as per your God's commands?

At the time the law was in question was operative, yes absolutely.

Do JW's support the death penalty for homosexuals?

Not at human hands, no. The above law was abolished and we are now under under Christian law, which still condems sexual contact out of marriage and homosexual acts but does not authorize execution of those that do such things. Christians are urged to leave the judgement as to who should live or die, in Gods hands.

And if not, then how can you claim to have accepted the Bible as the "Word of God"?

Because as I said, we believe the law authorizing humans to execute those that practice homosexual acts was abolished at the death of Christ. Without such divine authorization, no human has the right to take the life of another person. The same principle covers military engagement.




JW



RELATED POSTS

Why do Christians wear MIXED FABRICS and eat SEAFOOD yet prohibit homosexual acts ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p996772

Do Christians cherry-pick "old testament" laws?
viewtopic.php?p=1055839#p1055839

Did Jesus "cherry-pick" the Torah?
viewtopic.php?p=1020092#p1020092

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HOMOSEXUALITY, HOMOPHOBIA and ...BIBLICAL PROHIBITIONS

[Divine Insight]

None of the above: we accept the bible as the word of God and accept God's right to say what behaviours are or are not acceptable.

So then you agree that homosexuals should be put to death as per your God's commands?

At the time the law was in question was operative, yes absolutely.

Do JW's support the death penalty for homosexuals?

Not at human hands, no. The above law was abolished and we are now under under Christian law, which still condems sexual contact out of marriage and homosexual acts but does not authorize execution of those that do such things. Christians are urged to leave the judgement as to who should live or die, in Gods hands.

And if not, then how can you claim to have accepted the Bible as the "Word of God"?

Because as I said, we believe the law authorizing humans to execute those that practice homosexual acts was abolished at the death of Christ. Without such divine authorization, no human has the right to take the life of another person. The same principle covers military engagement.

But that's not what Jesus taught. Jesus taught that not one jot or one tittle of the law shall pass until heaven and earth pass.

Clearly even the JWs know that the God of the Old Testament was disgusting and so they try to replace the original God with Jesus and pretend that Jesus rebuked the original God.

But that can't be made to work.

Besides, all you are basically doing is confessing that the God of the Old Testament was disgusting and if it wasn't for Jesus you'd never accept the original God.

The only reason you support Jesus is because you have been convinced that Jesus rebuked the God of the OT. But how does that make any sense?

The God of the OT did tell men to kill homosexual. So if you think that isn't worthy of defending, then clearly you don't think the God of the OT is worthy of defending.

Replacing Yahweh with Jesus simply doesn't hold water. All that amounts to is a confession that Yahweh was indeed disgusting.

[JehovahsWitness]

But that's not what Jesus taught

That is our interpretation of what Jesus taught. Others like yourself have an alternative view which they are most welcome to.

But that can't be made to work.

It works perfectly fine for us.

[JehovahsWitness]

Clearly even the JWs know that the God of the Old Testament was disgusting ...

I know hundreds of Jehovahs Witnesses and have never met one that has expressed this sentiment. As one of Jehovahs Witnesses myself, I can assure you I know nothing of the kind, in fact , if you were to ask my opinion of the God of the Old Testiment you put it, (and his laws), I would say he is wonderful and his law is perfect.

... all you are basically doing is confessing that ... if it wasn't for Jesus you'd never accept the original God.

I cannot imagine how I gave that impression, but to clarify, no that is not the case. I do not believe we are dealing with two different Gods and I am confident would choose worship YHWH (Jehovah) the God of Abraham, no matter what the circumstances. As for how I feel about him and his laws, see above.

[JehovahsWitness]

The God of the OT did tell men to kill homosexual.

No there is a bible command in the law of Moses for the Israelites to execute anyone found guilty of having sex with a member of the same sex.

So if you think that isn't worthy of defending, then clearly you don't think the God of the OT is worthy of defending.

I'll bear that in mind, thank you for the reminder.





JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[Divine Insight]

No there is a bible command in the law of Moses for the Israelites to execute anyone found guilty of having sex with a member of the same sex.

Apparently JW's have been taught to pretend that the Bible doesn't say w hat it says.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with a male, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

How do you expect to sell a religion to anyone when you deny what's in the very Holy Book that you claim to be trying to sell to people?

Denial of something that has already been carved in stone in your Holy Book won't get you anywhere. All this does is reveal that even you reject what the Bible has to say.

[marco]

Who was I to say Leviticus was wrong? It was paramount to saying God was wrong. Indeed, the truth often doesn't make sense.
To children.

And apparently some devout parents, guided by what amounts to wickedness from pastors, try to prevent their gay children from ending up in eternal damnation. If you watch the documentary film, Prayers for Bobby, you discover that effectively the mother of the lovely lad killed her own son by her devotion to Leviticus and a brute God. Unable to reconcile what nature made him with how Leviticus - or God - condemned him, the poor boy committed suicide.

This is not a question of wrong interpretation but one of the consequences of following savagery. People learn to make their hearts hard and turn from the people they should love, in a silly effort to keep God's laws.

[marco]

Whether modern Christians and Jews admit it or not, they do in effect cherry pick the Bible, and at the very least ignore the nasty parts. (except for those hateful Westboro Baptist Church types, a very small and extreme minority).

That is why you never hear hymns based on the likes of Leviticus, etc.

No doubt there are those who do sing Leviticus. The world is filled with religious hate and I am appalled at what some "Christians" do at funerals in America. Jesus would be horrified but I don't suppose his opinion would matter.

Perhaps the best we can take from Leviticus is how NOT to act.

[marco]

None of the above: we accept the bible as the word of God and accept God's right to say what behaviours are or are not acceptable.

Then welcome to the mindset of the Spanish Inquisition, to the belief in burning people for heresy, to acceptance that ordering a man to kill his son is acceptable. When we place God above friends and family we lose our humanity and perhaps our home should then be a cave and our reason a club.

If a God decrees that a young girl be stoned to death by the good men of the town, then this God loses any right to be honoured or respected. He is the creation of savages.

[JehovahsWitness]

When we place God above friends and family we lose our humanity ...

I suppose that would depend on which God. In any case Christians are charged to do just that. Indeed it is a basic requirement for devotion to the God of the bible.

JW