Criticizing Christianity is a lost cause
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john.livingstone@lr
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Criticizing Christianity is a lost cause
Post #1The best thing about Christianity is that even though it attempts to explain certain events and the beginning of the world, the good book does not attempt to disprove others and their beliefs. The Christian religion is a big group of loving friends, we support God and his message and in the end we are all looking to better our lives through Christ. It makes very little sense to me as to why folks seem to get a kick out of trying to discredit Christianity. The Church is about self improvement, positive self-reflection and love of one another. And with a message this positive, why would an individual attempt to discredit the Bible on the basis of the creation or Noah's Ark or Adam and Eve. These are merely stories with the intent of explaining the progression of man and the Earth. The purpose of Christianity is to improve a person's life through God, not to explain the wonders of the world. And all of the people out there spewing hate about Christianity simply because they heard about why Christianity is unbelievable or how evolution better explains the origins of the world are simply wasting their time because Christians don't care what you have to say if the message isn't positive.
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Post #51
East of Eden wrote: So what? I suspect many atheists here were raised in a religion.
Adolf Hitler was emphatically not an atheist. Here he is in his own words.
" The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred
duty, each in his own denomination, of making people
stop just talking superficially of God's will, and
actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be
desecrated."
"For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and
their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is
declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.
Therefore, let every man be active, each in his own
denomination if you please, and let every man take it
as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who
in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines
of his religious community and tries to butt into the
other."
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance
with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending
myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of
the Lord."
-- Adolf Hitler, from "Mein Kampf", translation by
Ralph Mannheim.
"Hitler certainly believed that he was a Christian:
The Fuhrer made it known to those entrusted with the
Final Solution that the killings should be done as
humanely as possible. This was in line with his
conviction that he was observing God's injunction to
cleanse the world of vermin. Still a member in good
standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of
its hierarchy ("I am now as before a Catholic and will
always remain so" [quoting Hitler]), he carried within
him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God.
The extermination, therefore, could be done without a
twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the
avenging hand of God -- so long as it was done
impersonally, without cruelty.
-- John Toland (Pulitzer Prize winner), from "Adolf
Hitler", pp 507, talking about the Autumn of 1941.
The "I am now as before a Catholic..." quotation from
Hitler was recorded in the diary of Gerhard Engel, an SS
Adjutant, in October 1941. Hitler was speaking in
private, not before a mass audience, and so it is
difficult to dismiss the comment as propaganda lies.
Hitler was also very much into the occult. Again, he was emphatically
NOT an atheist.
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Post #52
Agreed. I would call him a pagan rather than an atheist or a Christian.Tired of the Nonsense wrote: Adolf Hitler was emphatically not an atheist. Here he is in his own words.
Hitler was born Catholic just as Stalin was born Orthodox and Mao was born Buddhist. It means nothing, as I pointed out earlier many people reject their religious upbringing as these three men did. Historian Allan Bullock wrote that from an early age, Hitler "had no time at all for Catholic teaching, regarding it as a religion fit only for slaves and detesting its ethics." During his climb to power Hitler needed the support of German Christians and to get this he sometimes used rhetoric such as you have quoted. To say this makes Hitler a Christian is to confuse political opportunism with personal conviction. Hitler himself said in Mein Kampt that his public statements should be understood as propaganda that bear no relation to the truth but are designed to sway the masses." The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred
duty, each in his own denomination, of making people
stop just talking superficially of God's will, and
actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be
desecrated."
"For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and
their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is
declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.
Therefore, let every man be active, each in his own
denomination if you please, and let every man take it
as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who
in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines
of his religious community and tries to butt into the
other."
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance
with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending
myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of
the Lord."
-- Adolf Hitler, from "Mein Kampf", translation by
Ralph Mannheim.
Funny, on another thread I got a lot of grief for pointing out that Hitler said he was a socialist. It was said his policies weren't socialist, therefore he wasn't one. I would say the same for his Christian claims."Hitler certainly believed that he was a Christian:
Not really. Pope Pius XI: Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.The Fuhrer made it known to those entrusted with the
Final Solution that the killings should be done as
humanely as possible. This was in line with his
conviction that he was observing God's injunction to
cleanse the world of vermin. Still a member in good
standing of the Church of Rome
Pius XI began to increasingly criticize Hitlers racial policies to different groups. In a 1938 address to Belgian pilgrims, the pope said that we are the spiritual offspring of Abraham We are spiritually Semites. Four months earlier, he had commissioned an American priest named John LeFarge to write an encyclical titled Humani Generis Unitas to more explicitly denounce the Nazi policy against the Jews.
The Nazi idea of an Aryan Christ who uses the sword to cleanse the earth of the Jews (what Hitler called 'Positive Christianity') was obviously a radical departure from traditional Christianity and was condemned as such by Pope Pius XI.
Here are some more private quotes from Hitler. He sounds like you guys:despite detestation of
its hierarchy ("I am now as before a Catholic and will
always remain so" [quoting Hitler]), he carried within
him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God.
The extermination, therefore, could be done without a
twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the
avenging hand of God -- so long as it was done
impersonally, without cruelty.
-- John Toland (Pulitzer Prize winner), from "Adolf
Hitler", pp 507, talking about the Autumn of 1941.
The "I am now as before a Catholic..." quotation from
Hitler was recorded in the diary of Gerhard Engel, an SS
Adjutant, in October 1941. Hitler was speaking in
private, not before a mass audience, and so it is
difficult to dismiss the comment as propaganda lies.
The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
Historian Richard Evans writes that "the Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in." In fact the churches were far more vocal opponents of Hilter than the German media or academia. Evans went on to say once Hitler and the Nazis came to power, they launched a ruthless drive to subdue and weaken Christian churches in Germany. Evans points out that after 1937 the policies of Hitler's government became increasingly anti-religious. The Nazis stoppped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer rather than God for their blessings. Clergy regarded as "troublemakers" were ordered not to preach, hundreds of them were imprisoned, and many were simply murdered. Churches were under constant Gestapo surveillance. The Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE
Post #54
East of Eden
Grumpy
It does not contain proof of any such thing. This contraversial book, written 9 years after Hitler's death by a rabid anti-Christian, contradicts almost every other book about Hitler's Christianity. It is the odd one out and therefore highly suspect. Every other evidence we have makes plain his Christianity. You can argue he was a terrible Christian, but he was a Catholic all of his life.The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
Grumpy
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Post #55
Why would a 'rabid anti-Christian' work for a Christian?Grumpy wrote: It does not contain proof of any such thing. This contraversial book, written 9 years after Hitler's death by a rabid anti-Christian,
Albert Speer confirmed the authenticity of the table talk transcripts in his 1976 memoirs. Hitler's secretary Traudl Junge also confirms Hitler's anti-Christian private statements in her memoirs.contradicts almost every other book about Hitler's Christianity. It is the odd one out and therefore highly suspect. Every other evidence we have makes plain his Christianity. You can argue he was a terrible Christian, but he was a Catholic all of his life.
Grumpy
From Wikipedia: ""Hitler had a general plan, even before the rise of the Nazis to power, to destroy Christianity within the Reich.[317][318][319] The leader of the Hitler Youth stated "the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognized as a purpose of the National Socialist movement" from the start, but "considerations of expedience made it impossible" publicly to express this extreme position."
"From the mid 1930s, anti-Christian elements within the Nazi party became more prominent - they were restrained by Hitler, who thought religion would die by itself as science advanced.[9] Nevertheless the Party began to suppress religious teaching, closed religious youth movements and excluded religious instruction from the Hitler Youth. The public collection of money for religious charities was forbidden. In 1937 all confessing church seminaries and teaching was banned. Dissident Protestants were forbidden to attend universities, and state-sponsored denominational and private religious schools were closed. During Hitler's dictatorship, more than 6,000 clergymen, on the charge of treasonable activity, were imprisoned or executed.[9] The same measures were taken in the occupied territories, in French Lorraine, the Nazis forbid religious youth movements, parish meetings, scout meetings, and church assets were taken. Church schools were closed, and teachers in religious orders were dismissed. The episcopal seminary was closed, and the SA and SS desecrated churches, religious statutes and pictures; 300 clergy were expelled from the Lorraine region, monks and nuns were deported or forced to renounce their vows."
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE
Post #56
East of Eden
I don't blame you for trying to disavow Hitler and his hatred of the Jews, but he recieved his training in the German churches, there is no doubt of that.
Martin Luther, the founder of all protestant churches(Lutherans)was a rabid antisemite, Hitler was just giving voice to the common(and church sanctioned)bigotry toward Jews of the times. Jews were not only hated in Germany(though theirs was an especially virilent variety), pograms against Jews are found all through history, including the Inquisition(convert or die under extreme torture, compliments of the Catholic church). No matter how much revisionists want to deny the churches complicity in the crimes of the Nazis, we aren't buying it and you are wasting your time. After all, those who do not remember history(accurately)are doomed to repeat it.
Trying to say Hitler was not a Christian is as ridiculous and wrong as those that say that slaves were kept in bondage for their own good, so we could make good Christians of them(ditto Indians, Aztecs, Hawaiians and any other indiginous population that Europeans conquered). Christianity has a lot to answer for, denying that won't change anything.
Grumpy
Money, status, self-preservation(atheist were sent to the gas chambers).Why would a 'rabid anti-Christian' work for a Christian?
Albert Speer is not a credible witness for anything. And I will take Hitler's own words over what some other person says he said 9 years after the fact. That book is, at best, hearsay, at worst, outright lies.(...revisionist history...)
I don't blame you for trying to disavow Hitler and his hatred of the Jews, but he recieved his training in the German churches, there is no doubt of that.
Martin Luther, the founder of all protestant churches(Lutherans)was a rabid antisemite, Hitler was just giving voice to the common(and church sanctioned)bigotry toward Jews of the times. Jews were not only hated in Germany(though theirs was an especially virilent variety), pograms against Jews are found all through history, including the Inquisition(convert or die under extreme torture, compliments of the Catholic church). No matter how much revisionists want to deny the churches complicity in the crimes of the Nazis, we aren't buying it and you are wasting your time. After all, those who do not remember history(accurately)are doomed to repeat it.
Trying to say Hitler was not a Christian is as ridiculous and wrong as those that say that slaves were kept in bondage for their own good, so we could make good Christians of them(ditto Indians, Aztecs, Hawaiians and any other indiginous population that Europeans conquered). Christianity has a lot to answer for, denying that won't change anything.
Grumpy
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Post #57
Please cite where atheists were sent to the death camps for their beliefs.Grumpy wrote: Money, status, self-preservation(atheist were sent to the gas chambers).
....or Bormann, or Hitler's secretary, or Goebels? Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The Fhrer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race."[22] Albert Speer reports in his memoirs of a similar statement made by Hitler: "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"[23]Albert Speer is not a credible witness for anything.
In 1941, Hitler praised an anti-Christian tract from AD 362, neo-platonist and pagan Roman emperor Julian the Apostate's Against the Galileans, saying "I really hadn't known how clearly a man like Julian had judged Christians and Christianity, one must read this...."[24]
Good, see above.And I will take Hitler's own words
Actually, there is. "However Hitler's own words from Mein Kampf seem to conflict with the idea that his antisemitism was religiously motivated. From childhood onward, Hitler seems to have continued to reject antisemitism or anti-Judaism based on religious arguments like the deicide claim." WikipediaI don't blame you for trying to disavow Hitler and his hatred of the Jews, but he recieved his training in the German churches, there is no doubt of that.
Albert Einstein, a secular Jew, had this to say:Martin Luther, the founder of all protestant churches(Lutherans)was a rabid antisemite, Hitler was just giving voice to the common(and church sanctioned)bigotry toward Jews of the times. Jews were not only hated in Germany(though theirs was an especially virilent variety), pograms against Jews are found all through history, including the Inquisition(convert or die under extreme torture, compliments of the Catholic church). No matter how much revisionists want to deny the churches complicity in the crimes of the Nazis, we aren't buying it and you are wasting your time.
Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks.
Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitlers campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.
- Albert Einstein, Time magazine, 23rd December, 1940 p. 38
Not nearly as much to answer for as atheism.Trying to say Hitler was not a Christian is as ridiculous and wrong as those that say that slaves were kept in bondage for their own good, so we could make good Christians of them(ditto Indians, Aztecs, Hawaiians and any other indiginous population that Europeans conquered). Christianity has a lot to answer for, denying that won't change anything.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE
Post #58
East of Eden
In a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933, Hitler stated: "We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 161. )
His words.
It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 436. )
Chapter and verse.
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.
( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933 in a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933; from Ernst Helmreich, The German Churches Under Hitler. Detroit: Wayne State Univ. Press, 1979, p. 241. )
Sounds like those who complain about god being taken out of our schools.
This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief.
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 152. )
The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles.
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939. Vol. 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1942, p. 386. )

"God with us," the Nazi motto on military belt buckles.
It is idiotic to try claiming Hitler and the Nazis were not god fearing Christians.
Grumpy
It is true that most of the atheist were killed where they stood...Please cite where atheists were sent to the death camps for their beliefs.
In a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933, Hitler stated: "We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
See below...And I will take Hitler's own words
Good, see above.
Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 161. )
His words.
It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 436. )
Chapter and verse.
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.
( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933 in a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933; from Ernst Helmreich, The German Churches Under Hitler. Detroit: Wayne State Univ. Press, 1979, p. 241. )
Sounds like those who complain about god being taken out of our schools.
This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief.
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 152. )
The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles.
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939. Vol. 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1942, p. 386. )

"God with us," the Nazi motto on military belt buckles.
It is idiotic to try claiming Hitler and the Nazis were not god fearing Christians.
Atheism cannot hold a candle to religion as a source for conflict, wars and death. And don't try claiming Communism is the same as atheism, Communists have a religion of the state and the majority of atheists are not Communists, just like the majority of Christians are not Nazis.Trying to say Hitler was not a Christian is as ridiculous and wrong as those that say that slaves were kept in bondage for their own good, so we could make good Christians of them(ditto Indians, Aztecs, Hawaiians and any other indiginous population that Europeans conquered). Christianity has a lot to answer for, denying that won't change anything..
Not nearly as much to answer for as atheism.
Grumpy
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Post #59
Again, show me atheists who were sent to the death camps for their beliefs.Grumpy wrote: It is true that most of the atheist were killed where they stood...
Even the atheist writer Christopher Hitchens called Nazism a 'quasi-pagan phenomenon'. I note that most of your Hitler 'Christian' quotes are from the early 1930s, when he was trying to gain power. You are confusing political opportunism with personal convictions. Hitler himself said in 'Mein Kampf' that his public statements should be understood as propaganda that bear no relation to the truth but are designed to sway the masses. I'm more impressed by his deeds after gaining power than by his words before.In a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933, Hitler stated: "We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
And I will take Hitler's own words
See below...
Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 161. )
His words.
It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 436. )
Chapter and verse.
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.
( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933 in a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933; from Ernst Helmreich, The German Churches Under Hitler. Detroit: Wayne State Univ. Press, 1979, p. 241. )
Sounds like those who complain about god being taken out of our schools.
This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief.
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 152. )
The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles.
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939. Vol. 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1942, p. 386. )
"Evans went on to say once Hitler and the Nazis came to power, they launched a ruthless drive to subdue and weaken Christian churches in Germany. Evans points out that after 1937 the policies of Hitler's government became increasingly anti-religious. The Nazis stoppped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer rather than God for their blessings. Clergy regarded as "troublemakers" were ordered not to preach, hundreds of them were imprisoned, and many were simply murdered. Churches were under constant Gestapo surveillance. The Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers."
Why would a 'Christian' do that?
Pretty much the same buckle from WWI, and before. 'God' is not specifically Christian.
"God with us," the Nazi motto on military belt buckles.
Your opinion, I think the reverse is true. What commandments of God were these 'God-fearers' following, the Golden Rule, Thou shalt not murder?It is idiotic to try claiming Hitler and the Nazis were not god fearing Christians.
Atheism killed people 100 times over in one century compared to the entire history of Christianity.Atheism cannot hold a candle to religion as a source for conflict, wars and death.
What were they, Methodists?And don't try claiming Communism is the same as atheism,
The majority of atheists may not be Communists, but the majority of Communists were atheists. They killed millions of Christians in an attempt to stamp out Christianity, to no avail. Truly, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."Communists have a religion of the state and the majority of atheists are not Communists, just like the majority of Christians are not Nazis.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE
Post #60
East of Eden
My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago " a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people."
Sort of puts paid to the revisionist history you are pushing.
Grumpy
You cannot be serious. History is not your best subject, I see. Since before Abraham and Moses slaughtered whole cities conflicts between religions have caused more death than old age.Atheism killed people 100 times over in one century compared to the entire history of Christianity.Atheism cannot hold a candle to religion as a source for conflict, wars and death.
Of course, it was a cult of personality(Hitler)as was Russia(Stalin). "Quasi" means having some of the traits of or the "flavor" of pagans(also a whole host of different religions). But the Nazis were Christians, the whole German state was divided between Lutherans and Catholics.Even the atheist writer Christopher Hitchens called Nazism a 'quasi-pagan phenomenon'.
So Pat Robertson is not a Christian?You are confusing political opportunism with personal convictions.
Yes, it was. Lutherans and Catholic.Pretty much the same buckle from WWI, and before. 'God' is not specifically Christian.
The majority of Christians were not Nazis, but the majority of Nazis were Christian. See how that works? Nazism is not a Christian doctrine, Communism is not an Atheist precept, but Hitler was a lifetime Catholic, Stalin was atheistic(he was anti anything that threatened his power), but Stalin didn't kill in the name of Atheism, Hitler(and the German people)did kill in the name of God.The majority of atheists may not be Communists, but the majority of Communists were atheists.
My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago " a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people."
Sort of puts paid to the revisionist history you are pushing.
Grumpy


