Criticizing Christianity is a lost cause

[john.livingstone@lr]

The best thing about Christianity is that even though it attempts to explain certain events and the beginning of the world, the good book does not attempt to disprove others and their beliefs. The Christian religion is a big group of loving friends, we support God and his message and in the end we are all looking to better our lives through Christ. It makes very little sense to me as to why folks seem to get a kick out of trying to discredit Christianity. The Church is about self improvement, positive self-reflection and love of one another. And with a message this positive, why would an individual attempt to discredit the Bible on the basis of the creation or Noah's Ark or Adam and Eve. These are merely stories with the intent of explaining the progression of man and the Earth. The purpose of Christianity is to improve a person's life through God, not to explain the wonders of the world. And all of the people out there spewing hate about Christianity simply because they heard about why Christianity is unbelievable or how evolution better explains the origins of the world are simply wasting their time because Christians don't care what you have to say if the message isn't positive.

[Grumpy]

East of Eden

Atheism 'prepared the ground' (as you claim Christianity did for Hitler) for the above crimes.

How, exactly, does atheism(which is nothing but the disbelief in supernatural superstitions, "prepare the ground" for ANYTHING?

There is nothing to hold back such evil if you don't believe in God, moral standards, eternal rewards and punishment, and that man has no more intrinsic value than a dog.

This is just your obscene prejudice against those who don't accept your superstitious beliefs. It is not true and is highly offensive. We do not claim you are a Nazi because you are a Christian(though the Nazis were Christians, good Germans all).
Apology for this slander IS expected!

This is why even a horrible person like Torquemada was restrained in his harm

An examination of the well used torture devices used during the Inquisition will show that Torquemada was restrained only by his lack of imagination.

, and why it took atheists to implement truly epic, large scale mass muder. BTW, I don't think you in any way have to answer for these atheist murders or are responsible for them.

Not one human being has ever been killed as a result of Atheist principles, you must consider OTHER causes like Communism, dictatorship or other philosophical reasons to find why a person who is an atheist would kill. The ONLY Atheist principle(if you can even call it that)is lack of acceptance of the supernatural claims of others. What is an "atheist murder" anyway? Is there a "Christian murder"? A "Blond murder"? Atheism is not a reason to do anything, it has no creed, no precepts(other than unbelief), no principles, no philosophy, nothing in common between members, no "churches", no meetings, no leaders, nothing but non-belief in any superstitious beliefs.

Stalin did not kill because he was an atheist, he killed because he was a barberous dictator that would brook no opposition, even from the church. His philosophy(other than "me, me me")was Communism and his lack of religious belief did not inform that.

Grumpy

[humanistheart]

The best thing about Christianity is that even though it attempts to explain certain events and the beginning of the world, the good book does not attempt to disprove others and their beliefs. The Christian religion is a big group of loving friends, we support God and his message and in the end we are all looking to better our lives through Christ. It makes very little sense to me as to why folks seem to get a kick out of trying to discredit Christianity. The Church is about self improvement, positive self-reflection and love of one another. And with a message this positive, why would an individual attempt to discredit the Bible on the basis of the creation or Noah's Ark or Adam and Eve. These are merely stories with the intent of explaining the progression of man and the Earth. The purpose of Christianity is to improve a person's life through God, not to explain the wonders of the world. And all of the people out there spewing hate about Christianity simply because they heard about why Christianity is unbelievable or how evolution better explains the origins of the world are simply wasting their time because Christians don't care what you have to say if the message isn't positive.

Actually, the bile is filled with commands to destroy or ignore people of other faiths.

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesnt receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who dont believe in him. Jude 5

[humanistheart]

He wasn't what you consider to be a Christian, but in that, you're just playing the "no True Christian" card fallacy. Anyone who doesn't fit your criteria for Christianity magically becomes a non-Christian.

No, people who say things like this are not Christian:

."

Given that there is no definitive definition for 'christian' it is impossible to say with any confidence that someone is not christian or behaving 'unchristian'.

[Flail]

By definition, a Christian is someone who has been indoctrinated to believe that only Chrstians are favored by God with eternal bliss, and that all others are unforgiven of their humanity and will suffer for it eternally in Hell despite any right and good conduct that defines their living here.

[East of Eden]

The best thing about Christianity is that even though it attempts to explain certain events and the beginning of the world, the good book does not attempt to disprove others and their beliefs. The Christian religion is a big group of loving friends, we support God and his message and in the end we are all looking to better our lives through Christ. It makes very little sense to me as to why folks seem to get a kick out of trying to discredit Christianity. The Church is about self improvement, positive self-reflection and love of one another. And with a message this positive, why would an individual attempt to discredit the Bible on the basis of the creation or Noah's Ark or Adam and Eve. These are merely stories with the intent of explaining the progression of man and the Earth. The purpose of Christianity is to improve a person's life through God, not to explain the wonders of the world. And all of the people out there spewing hate about Christianity simply because they heard about why Christianity is unbelievable or how evolution better explains the origins of the world are simply wasting their time because Christians don't care what you have to say if the message isn't positive.

Actually, the bile is filled with commands to destroy or ignore people of other faiths.

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

You're changing the subject from Christianity to the OT Nation of Israel.

Any city that doesnt receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who dont believe in him. Jude 5

References to the Last Judgement, not what Christians are to do today. See the parable of the wheat and tares.

[anotheratheisthere]

cnorman, I'd like to propose a truce/stalemate on our whole debate. First of all we started on the wrong foot so emotions and antagonism got in the way of expressing ourselves properly. Secondly, we've splintered the debate into so many tiny micro-debates about each statement we made, that it would take forever to unwind it.

So I'm happy to respectfully agree to disagree on some of the essential elements of our debate, close an eye on anything you said that I perceived as offensive, and offer you my apologies for anything offensive I said myself. The apology also being extended to anybody else I may have offended.

If we get a chance to get back to this debate in the future when we've allowed our ideas to marinate, then I'd be happy to debate the heck out of you, but for now I'm fine with letting it go

Deal?

[cnorman18]

cnorman, I'd like to propose a truce/stalemate on our whole debate. First of all we started on the wrong foot so emotions and antagonism got in the way of expressing ourselves properly. Secondly, we've splintered the debate into so many tiny micro-debates about each statement we made, that it would take forever to unwind it.

So I'm happy to respectfully agree to disagree on some of the essential elements of our debate, close an eye on anything you said that I perceived as offensive, and offer you my apologies for anything offensive I said myself. The apology also being extended to anybody else I may have offended.

If we get a chance to get back to this debate in the future when we've allowed our ideas to marinate, then I'd be happy to debate the heck out of you, but for now I'm fine with letting it go

Deal?

Done, with no hard feelings. And let me add that you have my respect and admiration for stepping back so graciously.

It's easy to let one's convictions overpower one's discretion, and that can lead to an acrimonious and unpleasant debate. I've done it; we've all done it.

Thanks. And,

...Whenever you're ready....



Charles

[JamesWesley]

"Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The Fhrer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race."

This is interesting, may I ask the source so I can research this further?

Meant for public opinion when he was trying to gain power, unlike comments Goebbels noted above.

The first volume of Mein Kampf was published in 1925 and the second volume in 1926. Mein Kampf was certainly used to help Hitler gain power, but he repeated the same phrase "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work. " in 1938 during the Reichstag speech.

Sorry, you are. If they were on the same side, why did Einstein say the Church was the German institution that did the most to oppose Hitler?

No, I am not. You are also putting words in my mouth. I never said the Church was on the same side as Hitler, I said that because of Church teachings that it laid down some groundwork for Hitler. Without the Anti-Semtiscm that the Church promoted in it's teachings in Germany, do you think Hitler would of had such a hatred for the Jews?

I am not familiar with the Einstein quote, but why does it matter? I am not saying that the Church was in league with Hitler and the Nazis but rather that the Church greatly influenced Hitler's thinking.

Your Hitler-as-Christian idea could just as easily be used on Al Capone, whe was born Catholic and is buried in a Catholic cemetary in the Chicago area, complete with a reference to Jesus on his tombstone. Were the gang wars in 1920s Chicago also the fault of Christianity?

Did the Catholic church spread the notion that Gang wars were okay? Just because a person is a Christian and they do horrible deeds does not mean that Christianity is too blame. In Al Capone's case, I don't believe the Church had any part. In Hitler's, I do.

The Middle Eastern Crusades were a justified counter-offensive against Muslim aggression.

Perhaps the first one. What about the second? Or the third? The fifth? The sixth?

It was around as long as man, what was unique to Christianity is that it ended it.

Christianity supports slavery in its book.

Agreed, the Inquisition was bad. The atheist Stalin killed twice as many per week at one point than the entire history of the Inquisition. If I need to answer for the Inquisition, you need to answer for Stalin.

Stalin was (perhaps) an Atheist? And? Atheism does not promote any sort of doctrine saying that people should be killed. Atheism had nothing to do with the murders and corruption committed under Stalin.

You have a sloppy understanding of this word. 'Genocide' is defined by The American Heritage Dictionary as "the systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political or ethnic group". You really think this was the intent of the Pilgrims in 1620? The main killers of native Americans were Old World germs to which they had never been exposed and had no resistance. The decimation of native populations by these diseases was a huge human tragedy, but in no sense did it constitute a crime.

Disease killed much more Native Americans then the sword, but that does not mean there was not an attempt to kill the Native Americans off. There is actually an example in my area where Spanish soldiers killed hundreds of Native Americans in an attempted Genocide.

You mean the war that ended slavery?

The United States civil war ended slavery, yes. However, the Confederates believed that Christianity supported slavery and they used numerous verses to support this view.

Murder in different forms
etc
etc

To be quite honest, I have forgotten what murders I was refereing to. I will retract this point for now as I can't remember what I meant by it. Isn't that embarrassing?

To repeat, atheistic communism killed 100,000,000, FAR more than Christianity ever did

I challenge you to prove how Atheism has anything to do with those deaths.

Atheism 'prepared the ground' (as you claim Christianity did for Hitler) for the above crimes. There is nothing to hold back such evil if you don't believe in God, moral standards, eternal rewards and punishment, and that man has no more intrinsic value than a dog. This is why even a horrible person like Torquemada was restrained in his harm, and why it took atheists to implement truly epic, large scale mass muder.

That is absurd. Atheists only disbelieve in a God, they have morals. I think you would find it interesting to know that "Atheist" countries are far more peaceful than "Christian" or other religious ones.

BTW, I don't think you in any way have to answer for these atheist murders or are responsible for them.

Again, Atheism has nothing to do with any murders. Atheism is not responsible for any crimes. Tell me, have you ever heard an Atheist go around a town saying "Believe in nothing or I shall kill you!" or have you heard an Atheist say "In the name of Atheism, I will kill you!"?

[East of Eden]

"Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The Fhrer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race."

This is interesting, may I ask the source so I can research this further?

Wikipedia

No, I am not. You are also putting words in my mouth. I never said the Church was on the same side as Hitler, I said that because of Church teachings that it laid down some groundwork for Hitler. Without the Anti-Semtiscm that the Church promoted in it's teachings in Germany, do you think Hitler would of had such a hatred for the Jews?

I am not familiar with the Einstein quote, but why does it matter? I am not saying that the Church was in league with Hitler and the Nazis but rather that the Church greatly influenced Hitler's thinking.

OK, I don't agree with it, but I see what you're saying.

Did the Catholic church spread the notion that Gang wars were okay? Just because a person is a Christian and they do horrible deeds does not mean that Christianity is too blame. In Al Capone's case, I don't believe the Church had any part. In Hitler's, I do.

In both cases, the church had no part. Pius XII made many statements against Hitler.

Christianity supports slavery in its book.

I Tim. 1:10 condemns slavery. It wasn't the free-thinkers of the 1800s that ended the slave trade, but Christians driven by their convictions. The whole slavery thing is a side issue. In His short ministry the main mission of Christ was to reconcile us to God by his atoning death on the cross. I'd rather be a slave on my way to heaven than Bill Gates on his way to hell.

Stalin was (perhaps) an Atheist? And? Atheism does not promote any sort of doctrine saying that people should be killed. Atheism had nothing to do with the murders and corruption committed under Stalin.

From Wikipedia:

"Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (especially the Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and also a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion[75]....... Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction as a public institution: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937"1938."

Disease killed much more Native Americans then the sword, but that does not mean there was not an attempt to kill the Native Americans off. There is actually an example in my area where Spanish soldiers killed hundreds of Native Americans in an attempted Genocide.

Or it could have been a battle, and anyway what specifically did it have to do with Christianity? If we had wanted to exterminate the American Indian, we could have easilty done so. Where is your evidence for genocide?

The United States civil war ended slavery, yes. However, the Confederates believed that Christianity supported slavery and they used numerous verses to support this view.

And they were wrong, and were defeated by Christians with the right view. You do think people can be wrong, don't you?

To be quite honest, I have forgotten what murders I was refereing to. I will retract this point for now as I can't remember what I meant by it. Isn't that embarrassing?

I know the feeling.

I challenge you to prove how Atheism has anything to do with those deaths.

See my Wikipedia quote above where murders are directly connected to atheism. This persecution is still going on today in Communist China and Cuba.

That is absurd. Atheists only disbelieve in a God, they have morals. I think you would find it interesting to know that "Atheist" countries are far more peaceful than "Christian" or other religious ones.

Not according to my above Wikipedia passage, and I could put up many more from places like Cambodia, China, etc. You are statistically far safer in a Christian nation than an atheist one.

Again, Atheism has nothing to do with any murders. Atheism is not responsible for any crimes. Tell me, have you ever heard an Atheist go around a town saying "Believe in nothing or I shall kill you!" or have you heard an Atheist say "In the name of Atheism, I will kill you!"?

That went on all the time, with 100,000,000 victims who held the 'wrong' beliefs.

[Cephus]

This is interesting, may I ask the source so I can research this further?

It's really irrelevant, the question here is what Hitler believed, not what someone else said about his beliefs. In Hitler's own writings, both public and private, you cannot find anything that suggests he was anti-Christian.

No, I am not. You are also putting words in my mouth. I never said the Church was on the same side as Hitler, I said that because of Church teachings that it laid down some groundwork for Hitler. Without the Anti-Semtiscm that the Church promoted in it's teachings in Germany, do you think Hitler would of had such a hatred for the Jews?

Actually, the church was demonstrably on his side, at least privately, all the way through WWII. Certainly when it became clear that he was a raving lunatic, they backpedaled to preserve public opinion, but after the war, they acted to smuggle Nazis out of Germany under Red Cross visas, certainly not the act of a church that didn't support the Nazi regime.

Did the Catholic church spread the notion that Gang wars were okay? Just because a person is a Christian and they do horrible deeds does not mean that Christianity is too blame. In Al Capone's case, I don't believe the Church had any part. In Hitler's, I do.

I've never researched Capone, but so far as I'm aware, he never spoke out that his religious beliefs were responsible for his actions. Hitler did. Likewise, Christians love to bring up Stalin and Pol Pot and claim atheism causes mass murder, but neither of them, again to my knowledge, ever stated that atheism was the impetus for their actions. Bad people do bad things, it all depends on where they, themselves, place the credit for their evil. Hitler placed it in Christianity.

The United States civil war ended slavery, yes. However, the Confederates believed that Christianity supported slavery and they used numerous verses to support this view.

And still do to this day, in fact. You have to remember that the KKK is a Christian organization and even looking at racist splinter groups, virtually all of them espouse a fundamentalist Christian view. It's a simple fact that the Bible teaches that slavery is fine. It tells you who you can take as a slave, how much you should pay, how they should be beaten, even how to trick a Jew into becoming a slave forever. From end to end, the Bible tells slaves to be obedient to their masters, I'm not surprised that the KKK and similar groups have seized on this idea.

That is absurd. Atheists only disbelieve in a God, they have morals. I think you would find it interesting to know that "Atheist" countries are far more peaceful than "Christian" or other religious ones.

Religion has a demonstrable negative correlation with societal health. The fact is, atheists and theists both have the same source of morality, atheists are just honest about it.