Coming home . . .

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Haven

Coming home . . .

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Hi all,

I don't know if this is the best sub-forum to post this, and I don't know if this will be well-received, but here it is: after months of research, agonizing, and attempted debunking, I've decided to leave atheism and return to the faith of my childhood, Christianity. I don't have the time to post a long diatribe (yet, I will tomorrow), but in a nutshell the evidence for atheism was illusory and the evidence for (non-fundamentalist) Christian theism was simply too strong to ignore. I have always placed the pursuit of the truth over the pursuit of atheism, and that pursuit -- though it originally took me in an anti-theist position -- is bringing me home. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, mods, if you want to move this to RR, then please do. However, I am hoping to foster at least some discussion on atheism vs. theism, naturalism vs. Christianity, so I think this is a good place for it.

To everyone who's spoken with me here over the past few months, thanks, I really appreciate it. To my theist "foes," I'm sorry that I tried to attack your views; I now recognize you were likely right. To my fellow atheists, I thank you for your support. This doesn't mean that I will become some raving fundamentalist lunatic, I'm still into rationalism, it just led me in a new (old) direction. If you want more details, just ask.

Thanks :)

Debate questions: Is Haven crazy? Have I lost my mind? Is the evidence for theism greater than the evidence for atheism? Does God exist? Is rational theism possible?

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Post #51

Post by Slopeshoulder »


Slopeshoulder wrote: I feel very strongly that evidentiary apologetics is beside the point.
I disagree. Evidence based reasoning is the foundation of rational thought.
Oops, I almost didn't see this down here.
Yes, it is, I agree. But it is not the foundation or driver of religious experience or commitment, not on its own.
Slopeshoulder wrote: Existence is not a category that pertains to God. God gods.
Is the word God a noun or a verb? Is the expression God gods nonsense or is it a meaningless tautology?
The point it is that whatever God "does", including "exist", would "be" in a category outside language, logic, experience, or comparison. God's manner of "being" or "action", his verb, is uniquely his own and synomymous with his essence. In god, essence and existence are one. IF he exists, um, er...

Slopeshoulder wrote: Rationality certainly can and must have a role in religious life, to ward off dangerous extremisms and silly beliefs,
What is to me are silly beliefs are to you may be articles of faith. What to you are silly beliefs may be to others, their articles of faith. How to distinguish, if we dispense with rational thought?

I never suggested for a moment we dispense with it. You edited out the part where I said it matters a lot. But reducing religion to modern ratiuonalism (which you are doing, not reason), and forcing it into that box, presuming it is subordinate to the box, is like asking my cat to stop not barking. It's counterfactual, a category error, hard on the cat, and makes me look like a fool.

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Post #52

Post by Slopeshoulder »

I imagine some are celebrating haven's atheism.
I imagine some celebrated his temporarily returned theism.
I'm just celebrating Haven, a good guy.

And given his 2 changes of heart and very open questions, I'd also like to congratulate him for creating what could become the mondo thread of everything!!

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Post #53

Post by Goat »

Slopeshoulder wrote:I imagine some are celebrating haven's atheism.
I imagine some celebrated his temporarily returned theism.
I'm just celebrating Haven, a good guy.

And given his 2 changes of heart and very open questions, I'd also like to congratulate him for creating what could become the mondo thread of everything!!
I'll join you in your celebration. It's nice to see someone honestly seeking answers.. no matter how they choose in the long run.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #54

Post by revelationtestament »

Haven wrote:After thinking about this some more, doing some reading, and speaking with friends (both theist and atheist), I've had second thoughts about my de-deconversion. Emotion played a larger role than I care to admit, and when looking at it as a whole, there still isn't enough evidence to conclude that God(s) exist. My desire to believe, to "return home" overrode my knowledge that theism is untenable. I'm returning to atheism, and deeply embarrassed I posted this.
Haven - were you just rattling the closet?

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Post #55

Post by revelationtestament »

revelationtestament wrote:

God provides evidence for His existence,


McCullough: On this we disagree.
Apparently because you don't consider scriptures to be evidence. Strange, because you probably would accept the writings of 4 or more Roman authors on a subject as evidence. God also responds to faithful prayer.
revelationtestament wrote:

This involves developing a relationship with Him - not using rational thought.

MC: I have no idea what this means.
I think you do, but maybe not. But Mennonites do seem to understand this.
revelationtestament wrote:

Maybe McCullough would agree with this - I have noticed his signature saying the truth will set you free.

MC: I believe that truth does set us free. I am unaware that faith is a demonstrated valid way of discerning truth.
Sometimes it is - sometimes it's study or observation. John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." A concept from God.

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Post #56

Post by McCulloch »

revelationtestament wrote:
revelationtestament wrote:

God provides evidence for His existence,


McCullough: On this we disagree.
Apparently because you don't consider scriptures to be evidence. Strange, because you probably would accept the writings of 4 or more Roman authors on a subject as evidence. God also responds to faithful prayer.
revelationtestament wrote:

This involves developing a relationship with Him - not using rational thought.

MC: I have no idea what this means.
I think you do, but maybe not. But Mennonites do seem to understand this.
revelationtestament wrote:

Maybe McCullough would agree with this - I have noticed his signature saying the truth will set you free.

MC: I believe that truth does set us free. I am unaware that faith is a demonstrated valid way of discerning truth.
Sometimes it is - sometimes it's study or observation. John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." A concept from God.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #57

Post by Darias »

Haven wrote:After thinking about this some more, doing some reading, and speaking with friends (both theist and atheist), I've had second thoughts about my de-deconversion. Emotion played a larger role than I care to admit, and when looking at it as a whole, there still isn't enough evidence to conclude that God(s) exist. My desire to believe, to "return home" overrode my knowledge that theism is untenable. I'm returning to atheism, and deeply embarrassed I posted this.
Don't worry about it. Personally I don't see a need to choose between two extremes. I mean, Strong Atheism is the same thing as Theism -- faith and emotion play into both.

That's why I'm just a fan of being Agnostic; it's not because I think Yahweh might be real, but because I just don't know. There might be beings that are superior to humans out there, but whether there are or aren't, I don't know -- and quite frankly don't care until they show up.

You don't have to conclude that gods probably or probably don't exist. You shouldn't have to chose between the two positions. No one knows.

But not being a Theist doesn't mean you can't still be a Christian.

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Re: Coming home . . .

Post #58

Post by Mithrae »

[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=456067#456067]Haven[/url] at 1:42am wrote wrote:I don't have the time to post a long diatribe (yet, I will tomorrow), but in a nutshell the evidence for atheism was illusory and the evidence for (non-fundamentalist) Christian theism was simply too strong to ignore. I have always placed the pursuit of the truth over the pursuit of atheism, and that pursuit -- though it originally took me in an anti-theist position -- is bringing me home.
[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=456311#456311]Haven[/url] at 5:09pm wrote wrote:I know the evidence against theism is incontrovertible, so I'd be lying to myself if I went down the path of belief. For better or for worse, I'm an atheist, and I need to stop being such a flake (I'm naturally indecisive, in case you guys can't tell Smile) and start learning to live with it.

I obviously deserve whatever criticism / attack I get, as I really shouldn't have posted this without making sure I was going to move in that direction (of de-deconversion). Once again, I deeply apologize, and feel free to lambaste me, because I certainly deserve it.
Either that was an extremely productive 16 hours, or your de-de-deconversion is even more of an emotional move than your OP. The absolutism and polarization of views you express in the later post certainly seems a lot more out of character for you than the OP's (somewhat) measured weighing of evidence for a reason-based approach to your religious roots.

The feeling of 'coming home' is obviously one of the emotional factors which attend every choice we make, but if I had to guess I'd wager that this has lead you to second-guess a decision based on months of pondering as though it were entirely emotional - and in the process make claims the like of which even many 'militant atheists' would balk at!

You seem to be basing your decisions on the view that it's better to impose restraint on your 'belief' to things which can be proven, without reference to feelings, rather than to allow yourself 'belief' in things which might be reasonable and fulfilling, but not proven. Personally I think that approach stems from a false dichotomy which doesn't fully appreciate the spectrum of thought and 'knowledge' which includes everything from imagination, speculation and working hypotheses; through faith, beliefs, cultural paradigms and the knowledge we accept as true from our teachers, books or interwebs; to logical truisms and universal day-to-day experience.

---
theopoesis wrote:That being said, Christian theism seems superior to me for several reasons, and I'll have to be brief here. It would take a series of books to argue this thoroughly:

(1) The Trinity: Though it is common to suggest that there are trinities in multiple religions, I am not convinced of the same through my reading in comparative religion. A triad is distinct from a Trinity. I am convinced that teleology helps us overcome Hume's objection that we cannot deduce "ought" from "is". We can do so through this logical form: If moral agent A wants outcome O, A ought to do O. If outcome O is the teleological purpose of that agent, and if failing to act according to one's purpose is in fact self-destructive, then we can formulate a moral system based on a mutual desire of agent A for his/her own benefit, and of God G (from whom teleology originates). It is cooperative in the Christian metaphysic, and it truly can move from is to ought.

Now, suppose that you were to hold to a polytheistic view of the world, or an atheistic view. You could potentially run into problems with the teleological component of this whole metaphysic. If there were two distinct sources of creation, there could potentially be two distinct purposes, two distinct teleologies, and two distinct moral systems. Therefore, for moral coherence, we would need to posit a single source of teleology: monotheism.

Having done so, we run into the Euthyphro dilemma, which argues from a false dichotomy that morality would be meaningless if derived from God. I resolve this dilemma through the suggestion that God acts according to his character. In patristic thought, you could explain this by claiming that God's actions are Personal, and undertaken by the Three Persons of the Trinity, who are perfect hypostasizations of the divine nature and character. Thus, they work in perfect harmony according to a real moral standard that is not contingent on their will nor is external to their nature (thereby defeating Euthyphro as I understand it). The trinity is necessary first because without the three persons instantiating the same nature, there could be division and teleology would break down. But why not simple monotheism, as in Islam or Judaism?

The answer is in considering that "God is love." If we defeat Euthyphro by referring to God's character, then we would hope that God's character was loving in order to maintain any degree of morality as we know it. But to be loving, there must be relationality. In fact, I've read some sociological arguments (not by Christians or specifically talking about God) that indicates that to truly judge a social action, you must judge the action with respect to a minimum of three social agents. Hence the Trinity. Hence Christianity. (That's all very abreviated, but I hope it at least shows that my decision to favor Christianity isn't only arbitrary.

(2) The Incarnation: I'll be much briefer here, but there are many metaphysical ramifications for the transcendence and immanence of God. In God the Father, God is fully transcendent, in God the Son, God is revealed in His person, but hidden in his nature, and in God the Spirit, God is revealed in nature, but hidden in person. (This is incredibly oversimplified.) The point is, this is a very complex metaphysical scheme of immanence and transcendence that provides a lot of opportunity to address what I consider to be some of the major antinomies of important modern secular worldviews.
The jump between some vague form of 'theism' and any specific religion's version is a very interesting question, and one which atheists rightly question.

This seems like a very reasonable answer :)

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Post #59

Post by revelationtestament »

commenting on the trinity:
The jump between some vague form of 'theism' and any specific religion's version is a very interesting question, and one which atheists rightly question.

This seems like a very reasonable answer Smile
{laughing} I like your style Mithrae.

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Post #60

Post by AquinasD »

I felt obliged to reply, but alas have nothing to reply with, especially since the whole fury of Haven's theism has subsided again into the mute autumn of atheism.

I am relieved, though, to see that he has swung between alternately extreme but ultimately more coherent forms of the dichotomous beliefs rather than some namby-pamby but totally uncommitted belief in some vague "higher power." It would indicate that he sees the coherency of a position such as mine, which is edifying even if he ends up disagreeing.
For a truly religious man nothing is tragic.
~Ludwig Wittgenstein

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