Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

[Tired of the Nonsense]

There are no (Christians present) in actual point of fact. None that will support the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus as a point of "logic, reason and critical thinking." Unless there happens to be a Christian newbe present that I am unaware of who wishes to tackle the job. None of the Christian regulars here will defend the story of the resurrection beyond a "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it," defense.

Not so. None is all. I would defend it gladly. Logic and reason reveals what is most evident and what the Bible reveals is absolutely most evident. Start the thread up if you dare. Bring your best arguments.

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 47 by SelectThis!]
Will ya look at that, he can copy/paste with the best of 'em.
Was Jesus angry when he tipped over the tables and drove people out with a whip?

A full cup does not need to be filled.

Question to hard for ya.....................nevermind, I'll try and think of an easier one. OK?

[SelectThis!]

Suffering work always leads to a surplus (Reward).

Interestingly enough this was also the motto of Auschwitz (more or less). Suffering work doesn't always lead to a reward. Sometimes suffering work just leads to more suffering and death.

41 Then Jesus said to them, Why is it said that the Messiah is the son of David? 42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:

The Lord said to my Lord:
Sit at my right hand
43 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.[c]
44 David calls him Lord. How then can he be his son?

Two things here. The enemy will be the footstool in the end. How can David call him lord and be his son?

You must be born again. Death is only rising to new life. When Jesus said, "I and the Father are one," He was referring to Adam, but also God before the Son was the first born into all of creation. This makes those after Adam the forefathers of Jesus (Last Adam).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjd__U9RhkI

The Word of God is within us. It comes out in all areas of existence. When he sings the song, what is said by the criminal military officers?

"No power on earth can stop us now."

"That's impossible. We killed that man."

"Well for God's sake, kill him again."

Revelation 6

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood? 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

"Our future is in HIS hands."

The Word is a mirror of the heart. Many here will argue that the word of God is false and cannot be trusted. This is because the Bible is in the image. What casts that Word is the true Living Word of God. The tree of life is DNA and that DNA is recorded in the Lamb's book of life. We are the mirror to this Word and that Word has the power to emerge in every area possible, even a silly movie.

Truth must necessarily be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind and therefore congenial to it.
by G. K. Chesterton

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Holmes



.

[SelectThis!]

[Replying to post 47 by SelectThis!]
Will ya look at that, he can copy/paste with the best of 'em.
Was Jesus angry when he tipped over the tables and drove people out with a whip?

A full cup does not need to be filled.

Question to hard for ya.....................nevermind, I'll try and think of an easier one. OK?

Your pretext is founded on an incorrect premise. I have shown you why the enemy is allowed to show evidence of themselves in the trial. They will then be made the footstool. If you consider the post I made concerning Enoch, you can then know why the bankers, false priests (Rome) and the Masons (Builders) are on trial. We are all thieves, but as Enoch says, the righteous must be on Earth to see the wicked judged in a final rendering of verdict.

Enoch One

1.1 These are the words of the blessing of Enoch; according to which he
blessed the chosen and righteous who must be present on the day of
distress, which is appointed, for the removal of all the wicked and impious.
1.2 And Enoch began his story and said: -
There was a righteous man whose eyes were opened by the Lord, and he
saw a Holy vision in the Heavens, which the Angels showed to me. And I
heard everything from them, and I understood what I saw: but not for this
generation, but for a distant generation that will come.

What are the odds that we have 7 billion people, both righteous and wicked, here at one time (Novelty Event)? As Enoch says, this information was given when the 70 generation judgment call form God was started (Check the Mayan Long Count Calendar). We are that distant generation.

As I have shown, the whole connects perfectly to the parts. The words are one thing, but our history is the witness to the power in the words. I have heard nobody contradict this yet. This is because it is both logical and rationally seen by the evidence.

Did you watch the Carl Munck video that shows the previous kingdom of fallen beings across the ENTIRE Earth? Did they possess an intelligence that was an artifact out-of-place? YES! Confirmed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw9lTB0hTNU

It's funny. Nobody so far has answered my evidence with a logical reasoning that shows it as false. How come? It's because we see the evidence before us and it cannot be seen differently than what the Bible shows.

.

[bjs]

[Replying to post 47 by SelectThis!]
Will ya look at that, he can copy/paste with the best of 'em.
Was Jesus angry when he tipped over the tables and drove people out with a whip?

According the Gospel Jesus did not drive people out with a whip. John 2:15 says, he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle.

The Gospel records Jesus using a whip to drive out sheep and cattle. I dont know much about sheep, but just about the only way to get cattle moving is with a whip or a cattle prod.

There is no mention of anger in the passage. It is presented more as an act of civil disobedience.

[aglassdarkly]

There's not even an implication that they suspected the tomb might be empty. The passage certainly doesn't tell us SPECIFICALLY of any uncertainty when the tomb was sealed. In fact, how do you know that part of securing the tomb didn't include checking it first?

If the priests knew for a certainty that the body was inside the tomb, then no seal would have been necessary. Trained guards with swords are a much more effective deterrent then some few cords held with embossed clay, any day. The seals were no real deterrent to anyone intent on defying them. All the seals really did was insure that the guards could not be held responsible if the tomb proved to be empty later. Which it did. If the priests knew for a certainty that the body was inside, why bother with the seals? No body in the tomb when the priests returned to check? Then the guards were clearly culpable, seal or not. Would the priests have opened the tomb to check for the body?

(Nazir 7.1) "The Nazarite and the Kohen Gadol may not defile themselves through contact with corpses even in the case of the death of a near relative; discussion of the question whether the Nazarite or the high priest defiles himself if both together find a corpse which must be buried and no one else is there to do it ( 1); things which defile the Nazarite, and other regulations regarding the uncleanness of a person entering the Temple." ( 2-3).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazir_%28Talmud%29

Being in the open presence of a corpse would have rendered the chief priests of the nation ritually unfit to enter into the temple on a high holy day. And the purification ritual required to regain a state of ritual cleanliness from such an unclean state took days to perform.

This doesn't explain why they didn't have the Roman guards check the tomb.

It's like locking the front door and setting the alarm. You do it to make doubly sure that no one will get inside. If they suspected that the body was gone already, there'd be no need for guards or a seal.

If they were certain the body was already gone they would not have bothered to make the appeal to Pilate in the first place. Uncertainty is the key here. The priests followed the most logical course of action open to them to deal with an uncertain situation.

Certainty cures. If they thought the body might not be in there, they would have asked the Romans to check, keeping themselves ritually clean.

And how did they discover that? Did the priests and guards break the seal and open the tomb to discover... SHOOT! THEY NEVER PUT THE BODY IN THERE!... ???

Exactly right. The body was originally and very publically taken to Joseph's new tomb of course. And in fact the corpse was never publically seen again after that point. The priests were unable to investigate the tomb on the high holy day, but they WERE free to do so Sunday morning. The seals and guards were never intended to be left there indefinitely.

So when they went to investigate the tomb, did they break the seal and open the tomb?

Really? You can't think of any other purposes for the herbs and ointments?

None?

Really?

A HUNDRED POUNDS of sweet smelling herbs and ointments has only one obvious purpose in this situation, to disguise the odor of decay for an extended period.

Even in your own hypothetical scenario where the body was going to be moved from Joseph's tomb in a few days anyway (edit: there's still no evidence that Joseph wouldn't allow Jesus' body to remain there), they could have brought the herbs and ointments so that the body wasn't gross when they eventually moved it. It's not evidence that they intended on immediately sneaking the body to Galilee.

And I can think of a couple other reasons why they would have brought herbs and ointments into the tomb of the sacrificed Messiah... respect (Josephus, the historian, wrote that 40 pounds of similar materials were used to bury R. Gamaliel, out of respect), they might have also seen themselves fulfilling the prophecy in Psalm 16:10, it was a common part of the embalming process... plus we know that the woman in Luke 24 brought additional prepared spices to the tomb (were they "in on it" too?).

... and no one noticed?

-I'll be gone for a couple days?
-Where will you be, sweety?
-None yo bizzness woman!

-Where are you taking all those expensive smelly things, hun?
-Wherever I want, k?

The city was filled with tens of thousands of pilgrims for the holy day ceremonies remember. Who is to notice one more animal drawn cart moving through the city containing a heavily wrapped corpse covered in blankets and traveling accessories?

All those people were in the city when Jesus was crucified and no one noticed the sneaky apostles "pretending" to put the body in the tomb, but really sneaking it onto a wagon and running out of town?

And I'm more interested in the interpersonal/relational side. They all snuck out of town immediately after the crucifixion? No one wondered why? Mary and Martha were like "Okay, it's cool, you guys deserve a vacation... it's not like Jesus told us all to mourn with those who mourn."

The story doesn't seem consistent.

You're assuming. (That the tomb proved to be empty on Sunday morning.)

Empty, as in devoid of the body of Jesus. Actually I am drawing on Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to provide me with this particular "assumption."

Don't misquote me.

So you think the apostles pretended to put Jesus' body in the tomb, but they secretly covered it in ointments and spent a week taking the body to Galilee... and while they were gone Jesus appeared to the women and the other disciples in Jerusalem and to the apostles in Galilee? Like a very convincing puppet show (in Galilee) and a hallucination (in Jerusalem)? Or they all decided to lie about it?

Mark 16
[1] And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
[2] And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
[3] And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
[4] And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

In fact this account virtually SCREAMS conspiracy. According to the account in Mark, these women, entirely alone, set off to the tomb at first light to anoint a body already pretty well slathered in 100 pounds of ointments with yet even more ointments despite the fact that they knew perfectly well that access to the body was blocked by a large boulder which they had no possible hope of moving on their own.

Conspiracy theorists always think things SCREAM conspiracy. But a couple days after you've lost someone, you don't think things through very well. I've experienced that. They didn't bring anyone with them to help roll the stone away, that's a pretty small oversight. There's no evidence that they even knew there would be Roman guards at the tomb.

The obvious conclusion isn't always right. And before we even consider what's obvious, we need to take into account the whole picture, not this one issue.

That wasn't the question however, was it? The question was which conclusion is the more obvious.

While I can say which is more obvious, out of the two options, the greater point is that the more obvious answer isn't always correct. Don't dodge the issue.

What's obvious to me is that Matthew 27:64 does not verify, as you claimed, that the disciples stole the body or that they spread a "rumor" that Jesus rose from the dead. Like hERICtic said, it wouldn't make sense for the biblical authors to explain how they fooled everyone... if they were still trying to fool people. It would be like a magician revealing his trick mid-illusion. What makes more sense, using your reason and logic: your interpretation stretches the truth into conspiracy-theory-land OR no one associated with the story believed it to be anything other than the truth?

I replied to hERICtic on this question.

I hear silence on the obviousness of your previous claim. Matthew 27:64 does not verify, as you claimed, that the disciples stole the body or that they spread a "rumor" that Jesus rose from the dead.

And I noticed that you dodged my question.

Additionally, if you're right about the priests suspecting that Jesus' body wasn't in the tomb, why did the priests bribe the guards (who reported that an angel appeared and opened the tomb on the third day) to keep their mouths shut? Why didn't the priests say "SHOOT! THE TOMB WAS EMPTY THE WHOLE TIME!" ??? Your theory doesn't match the account.

This IS Matthew's version of events and ONLY Matthew's version of events remember. None of it can be reconciled with the other Gospels.

So you don't believe Matthew's account?

[otseng]

What you say here has zero value to the discussion other than showing your lack of discussion and debate skills.

Moderator Comment

Please avoid making any comments of a personal nature.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[SelectThis!]

What you say here has zero value to the discussion other than showing your lack of discussion and debate skills.

Moderator Comment

Please avoid making any comments of a personal nature.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Thank you for the reminder.

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 47 by SelectThis!]
Will ya look at that, he can copy/paste with the best of 'em.
Was Jesus angry when he tipped over the tables and drove people out with a whip?

According the Gospel Jesus did not drive people out with a whip. John 2:15 says, he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle.

The Gospel records Jesus using a whip to drive out sheep and cattle. I dont know much about sheep, but just about the only way to get cattle moving is with a whip or a cattle prod.

There is no mention of anger in the passage. It is presented more as an act of civil disobedience.

How could I be so silly, he was just moving some livestock, good thing he didn't send the humans packing. Oh wait here's a quote from http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch ... quote]John 2:15
So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.
[/quote]
But he wasn't driving out the people, you will call it an act of civil disobedience because you can't possibly accept it for what it is ie a fit of anger..................like father like son.

[southern cross]

double post oops

[Mithrae]

[Replying to post 47 by SelectThis!]
Will ya look at that, he can copy/paste with the best of 'em.
Was Jesus angry when he tipped over the tables and drove people out with a whip?

Could you explain how this contributes to evidence that Jesus was raised from the dead, or to evidence that Jesus was not raised from the dead.