Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

[Tired of the Nonsense]

There are no (Christians present) in actual point of fact. None that will support the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus as a point of "logic, reason and critical thinking." Unless there happens to be a Christian newbe present that I am unaware of who wishes to tackle the job. None of the Christian regulars here will defend the story of the resurrection beyond a "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it," defense.

Not so. None is all. I would defend it gladly. Logic and reason reveals what is most evident and what the Bible reveals is absolutely most evident. Start the thread up if you dare. Bring your best arguments.

[Mithrae]

The city was filled with tens of thousands of pilgrims for the holy day ceremonies remember. Who is to notice one more animal drawn cart moving through the city containing a heavily wrapped corpse covered in blankets and traveling accessories? It's roughly 90 miles from Jerusalem to Galilee, a week long journey transporting a corpse through a warm arid clime. When would you have chosen to start it? The answer I submit, is ASAP!

On the Sabbath? Quite unlikely. You make a good argument that Joseph's tomb was probably used temporarily before taking the body home, but an extra day's delay in a cool tomb probably wouldn't have been sufficient reason for them to violate restrictions against travel on the Sabbath.

According to John (who lived long enough to see the executions of his brother James, his fellow disciple Peter, and Jesus' brother James), when he and Peter went to the tomb they saw that the linen in which Jesus had been wrapped was still there (John 20:6-8) and became persuaded by that. Presumably Jesus' family or disciples taking the body to Galilee would have taken the wraps and spices as well. So do we trust this claim by John, or consider it part of the grand hoax?


(Edit regarding authorship: Unlike Matthew, the fourth gospel does say that it was written by a disciple (1 John 1:1-3, John 1:14 and 19:35), a claim which the appendix written shortly after his death confirms (John 21:23-24). Circumstantially, we see in the synoptics that the 'inner circle' of Jesus' disciples were Peter, John and James (Mark 9:2 etc) and both Paul and Acts confirm the ongoing prominence of the survivors of that trio; yet of those three noteworthies, only Peter is named in the fourth gospel. The author calls himself the 'disciple who Jesus loved,' and avoids mentioning his dead brother.)

[assisigirl]

Fascinating Thread! Such a diversity of human opinion. Praise to All..

Anything that reaches out beyond the bell curve of probability must be confirmed with extra emphasis for or against the argument

SelectThis! wrote this in an excellent early post. It would seem on the surface to be a good methodolgy to proceed. It does not work in practice, I think.

assisigirl: If I proceed in the manner prescribed I end up with playhavock's conclusion ie that the whole thing is a fabrication.

It is like plucking a seagull for Sunday dinner, there is no meat left?

I have some simple questions for someone like aglassdarkly for example.

1. Why is the narrative neutral on Romans and heavily anti-semitic.(Crucify Him)
2. Why would a roman governor undermine his own authority to concede to the Priests?
3. Why the constant exact dialogue, this seems impossible to recollect postumously.
4. Why the embellishment, curtains tearing, eclipse etc etc.?
5. Whats the charge, had Jesus no rights of citizenship, ie Joseph had been at a census. Why the severity of sentence? For what?
6. How likely is it that a terrorist would be released so that Jesus could take his place. Is their any historical precedent for what seems an absurd account or is this just another 'saviour for a sinner' analogy.
7. Whats the Pete 'cock crowing' about except to assert that Jesus is prophetic.

Pick up these feathers for me aglassdarkly with your housewife religious practicality.

[assisigirl]

Death by Roman Crucifixion

Death by Roman crucifixion was a result of the whole body weight being supported by the stretched arms. When nailed to the cross there was a massive strain put on the wrists, arms and shoulders often resulting in a dislocation of the shoulder and elbow joints. The rib cage was constrained in a fixed position, which made it extremely difficult to exhale, and impossible to take a full breath. The victim would continually try to draw himself up by his feet to allow for inflation of the lungs enduring terrible pain in his feet and legs. The pain in the feet and legs became unbearable and the victim was forced to trade breathing for pain. The length of time required to die from crucifixion could range from hours to a number of days

assisigirl:This is what I think about on Good Friday, human barbarity!

[assisigirl]

The Roman Custom of Crucifixion in Josephus - Survivors of Crucifixion
It was apparently possible to survive crucifixion and there are records of people who survived. The historian Josephus, a general in command of the Jewish forces of Galilee, is the best literary source for the practice of crucifixion in Palestine during the Roman period. Josephus describes pleading directly to the Roman general Titus for the lives of three friends who had been crucified. His request was granted and his friends were granted their reprieve. He wrote that Titus immediately commanded them to be taken down and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to aid their recovery. Two of them died under the physician's hands but the third recovered. Josephus gave no details of the method or duration of crucifixion before the reprieve of these men

assisigirl:amazing what you can find on the internet????

http://religiousstudies.uncc.edu/people ... ephus.html

[SelectThis!]

[Replying to post 33 by JoeyKnothead]

Incredulity is not a platform. I have made my first post and you have the option to speak to the subject. What you say here has zero value to the discussion other than showing your lack of discussion and debate skills. Bias builds ground for your opponent to stand above you.

[SelectThis!]

[Replying to post 36 by Tired of the Nonsense]

As I stated in my first post, the methods you use for logic in your own statements must then also be applied with benefit of doubt to the antithesis of your own platform. Since you are already stretching the implication of scripture with logical reasoning, you will see that the same type of reasoning applies to my second post.

Your post makes grand assumptions about what actually happened. Those assumptions can also be made to show that Jesus WAS in the tomb at the time. We can argue this all we want and not get anywhere. What we need is proof that his words have power beyond your words or my words in this world. If we can prove this with little doubt (Probability high), then we can then look back and show the reflecting point between positive and negative for the other questions we can raise. Either his words are true and have power to altar reality in the future or they have no power and are false. So far, no one has touched my 2nd post.

To try and answer your post at this time would only be a waste of words. We first need to establish that the words themselves are divine. If we can accomplish this first, we have little room to doubt the positive side of truth. Your post seeks to disprove Christ on an assumption. Assumptions lead to misplaced concreteness.

Why are my assumptions about the banking industry not misplace concreteness? I have a current day witness to back the words up with a parallel context that can be demonstrated as TRUE. Not only do I have witnesses, my assumptions about the positive argument will continue to confirm what is said by example after example.

If we go with your argument that Christ was not in the tomb, this creates a contradiction and paradox to the words that follow through to our current day verification. Probability and logic says that the argument that causes more contradiction and paradox is the lower axiom and not the higher.

Speak to my thread first and we can then return to yours.

Here is an example of how truth mirrors at a point where we must make a choice. God leaves us no defenitive truth to say, "THAT'S IT!" We don't get this defenitive proof with faith or we would have had fact over faith long ago. Instead, we get a mirror where we must make a choice. Good and Evil are polarities in a world of opposites. We must make a choice. Consider this example.

Which of these men spoke the truth?

Aliester Crowley (Freemason/OTO) said, ""Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"

Jesus said, "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." Matt 7:12

The reflecting point here is the difference between objectivism and altruism. We need to decide if truth is absolute or not. Which one do we choose?

Here is a generalization to show the truth:

If you smoke, you take a reward you did not earn. When we take a reward that is not earned, we are thieves. The thief always leaves behind a debt. In this case, the debt is the cancer we develop. Flip this in the mirror to the other side. If we work out in a gym, we are likely to have a longer life. Why? Instead of taking, we give. Suffering work always leads to a surplus (Reward). Work a job and you get a paycheck. Give that money to your family instead of buying smokes and you get a better family. What we give forward always leads to reward. What we take always leads to suffering as a result.

Which side of the mirror above is correct between the two philosophies?

Again, here is yet another proof that Jesus word's are at a higher axiom and have power to then show his life as true.

My probability box is filling up in two posts and resolves contradiction and paradox. The logical conclusion so far is that I am up 2 posts and you are down one. Assumptions must have witnesses.

[SelectThis!]

[Replying to post 1 by Tired of the Nonsense]

My Method - http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 881#551881

1st Post Concerning the Money Changers - http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 907#551907

2nd Post Concerning the mirror of truth in opposites / Weak assumptions denied - http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 051#552051

In this post, I will continue from the first post concerning the money changer. Here is where I left off.

Matthew 24

32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The fig tree can easily be shown to be Israel. A simple Google search can show this so I'll save text on this topic. Here is where we can show a relationship to some further evidence that the story is lining up with the words of Christ.

Consider the Babylonian Captivity and its timing:

Isaiah 11:11
In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

Here is God's judgment predicted ahead for us to clearly read.

The Prophecy ... Ezekiel 4:4-6

"Then God said to Ezekiel,
'Now lie on your left side for 390 days
to show Israel will be punished for 390 years
by captivity and doom.
Each day you lie there represents
a year of punishment ahead for Israel.
Afterwards, turn over and lay on your right side
for 40 days, to signify the years of Judah's punishment.
Each day will represent one year . . .'"
(Ezekiel 4:4-6)

390 days Judgment against the 10 northern tribes 'Israel'
+ 40 days Judgment against the 2 southern tribes 'Judah'
= 430 years Judgment against the nation of Israel

Fulfillment

430 years of judgment determined against nation Israel
- 70 years fulfilled during the Babylonian captivity
= 360 years remaining in judgment against the nation of Israel

Where are the 360 years?

"And after all this, if you do not obey Me,
then I (God) will punish you seven times more for your sins."
(Leviticus 26:18)

"Then, if you walk contrary to Me,
and are not willing to obey Me,
I (God) will bring on you seven times more plagues,
according to your sins."
(Leviticus 26:21)

"And after all this,
if you do not obey Me,
but walk contrary to Me,
then I (God) also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I will chastise you seven times for your sins.:
(Leviticus 26:27-28)

"I (God) will scatter you among the nations
and draw a sword after you;
your Land shall be desolate
and your cities waste."
(Leviticus 26:33)

This is a factor of 7 (7X)

360 Remaining years of judgment
x 7 The prophetic '7X' factor
= 2,520 Years of judgment remained against nation Israel

360 day years for prophecies, then add the appropriate 'leap months' to the schedule. So, the easiest way to unravel this prophecy is to first convert this prophecy into days ...

2,520 years
x 360 days
= 907,200 days of judgment remained against nation Israel after the Babylonian captivity

907,200 days - 365.25 days = 2,483.78 years of God's judgment remained

Now have another look.

606 B.C Israel taken into Babylonian captivity
- 70 Years for 70 years
= 536 B.C. End of first 70 years of judgment
+ 2483 Years Now add the 2,483 years remaining in this judgment
+ 1 Year Add 1 year because there is no "0" B.C. or A.D.
= 1948 AD! End of judgment against nation Israel

SOURCE - http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread782622/pg1

This is the foundation for me to now show how the precession of the Earth shows a generation. If you take 25920 years and divide by 360 you get 72 years. A Hebrew generation can be shown as 70 years. Either way, we get a close approximation to the exact nature of a generation.

In Genesis 6, there are fallen beings that corrupt mankind. God then says this:

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days"and also afterward"when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created"and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground"for I regret that I have made them. 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

If you consult the book of jubilees, you find that reckoning of time is based on 50 year chunks of time. That's (7X7)+1 and is a golden jubilee. What is God saying here? 120 years is 120 X 50, or 6000.

In the book of Enoch One, we have another clue:

10.12 When all their sons kill each other, and when they see the destruction
of their loved ones, bind them for seventy generations, under the hills of the
earth, until the day of their judgment and of their consummation, until the
judgment, which is for all eternity, is accomplished.
10.13 And in those days, they will lead them to the Abyss of Fire; in
torment, and in prison they will be shut up for all eternity.

Enoch delivered a message of judgement to the watchers of 70 generations. The book of Jubilees says that Adam died at 19 Jubilees (950). The Bible says Adam died at 950. Enoch delivers a preflood warning of judgment to the watchers and then the flood destroys their kingdom. If we take 70 X 72 (Recession Degrees) we get 5040. Add this to 950 and we get 6000.

The Mayans left us a countdown clock of 5125 years to show the end of this countdown. If they were told that judgment was coming and knew their kingdom would be destroyed, they were smart enough to leave a record of this in stone. At many ancient sites, we see this same type of long count record.

How can we verify that this was a kingdom of extra smart beings? Where is the evidence?

The evidence is found by seeing the Radian Geometry left behind at each of the pyramid sites:

As it turns out, we now have evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw9lTB0hTNU

Watch the video and a larger picture emerges that fits the Biblical account.

What did Jude say on the subject?

Jude 1

6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling"these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Here, we have a direct link between the fallen beings and a coming day of judgment that ends in fire.

Again from Jude:

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.[e] 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

Does our witness, who was closer to the events than us (With the library of Alexandria) know what he was saying in relation to Jesus?

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

Yes he does. We have his account and the work of Carl Munck to confirm that such a kingdom existed. As we start to see a larger story emerge, we know why it was necessary for THE Son of God to come and assist mankind in cleaning the mess of the fallen beings up. But why did God allow this?

Easy. What is one either side of a loaf of bread? The heel. Did God already know the story from beginning to end?

1 Corinthians 10

And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

All of us are drops of water from one larger body of water. The ocean is the Son of God and we are the dew that falls on the ground. You must be born again. Involution and Evolution is explained in my very first post located in Random Ramblings area of this forum. I explain the concept there. Who, then, is the first born over all creation that is the loaf mentioned above? That's the Son of God.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Is the Church one body, like a loaf of bread in slices from the whole? Yes. Then what is the heel on either end? Do you remember that Jesus says, "I and the Father are one?"

1 Corinthians 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

Adam is the heel. The head of the Church is Christ (On God's right hand). The risen body of Christ is the Church. Why a heel on either end? First, we need to hear what God said at the beginning?

Genesis 3

And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.

Satan can only be defeated by God, but the loaf gets to assist. We, who are many, are ONE loaf. God is raising HIS Son in the wilderness. The first century was a foreshadowing of the Day of the Lord and God has demonstrated the ability to know and tell us before it happens. God draws the future into the past for us to see from two directions. It approaches from the past and the future at the same time. Today, we happen to be here at the event horizon of the last day of 6000 years of history.

How many witnesses do I have?

Epistle of Barnabas 15:4

Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years; and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end."

2 Days -Adam to Abraham 2000 Years of Age 1 (FATHER)
2 Days -Abraham to Jesus 2000 Years of Age 2 (SON)
2 Days -Jesus to Today 2000 Years of Age 3 (HOLY SPIRIT)
1 Day -Day of Rest (Day of the Lord) 1000 years (SALVATION)
-------
7 Days (7000 years - Approximately 6000 have passed)

I'll present 14 more later.

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 47 by SelectThis!]
Will ya look at that, he can copy/paste with the best of 'em.
Was Jesus angry when he tipped over the tables and drove people out with a whip?

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Suffering work always leads to a surplus (Reward).

Interestingly enough this was also the motto of Auschwitz (more or less). Suffering work doesn't always lead to a reward. Sometimes suffering work just leads to more suffering and death.

[SelectThis!]

[Replying to post 47 by SelectThis!]
Will ya look at that, he can copy/paste with the best of 'em.
Was Jesus angry when he tipped over the tables and drove people out with a whip?

A full cup does not need to be filled.