Darren Brown

[Ooberman]

Is he the apologists worst nightmare?

http://youtu.be/jYjgeayfYPI

[Realworldjack]

My point is, the Bible never attempts to evoke emotion, feelings, and never attempts to create an experience, and point to these things, as the evidence of it's truth.

This comment is either soaking wet with - no drowning in - sarcasm, or the greatest indication of how vastly different Believers view the Bible than nonbelievers.

It appears to me that the Gospels and Epistles are doing nothing but exuding emotional pleas, and are incredibly absent any intellectual content.

Please give me an example of all these emotional pleas the Bible is exuding with, because I certainly don' see it. Let's look at the first sermon preached that kicked off this movement, which was by Peter,

P) 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]
22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[e]
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.�’[f]
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.�

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?�

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.� [/quote]

As you can see, Peter starts out by using a Old Testament passage, to explain the events the crowd is now witnessing, no emotional pleas here! Rather this is objective evidence! He then immediately brings up the miracles performed by Jesus, and points to the fact that these miracles would be common knowledge among the crowd! Again, objective evidence. He then points to the fact that Jesus was crucified! Objective evidence! Then points to another Old Testament passage, and demonstrates, how this passage, could not be talking about, King David, because of the fact that the body of David was still in the tomb, and with them to this day! Objective evidence! Therefore he points to the fact that the tomb of Jesus is empty! Again objective evidence!

Now, all of what Peter says here could be a lie, but that is a whole different discussion. What we are discussing here, is whether the Bible uses emotional pleas, so let's not get side tracked on a different debate here.

I have done this on other threads, but think about these words for a moment, witness, eyewitness, evidence, defense, convict, conviction, proof. Now, where would you hear these words on a daily basis........ thats right, a court of law, where they are looking to determine truth, from the objective evidence. The words above are biblical words, in other words the Apostles never point to emotion, rather they pointed to the objective evidence.

Now let's look at what Paul says,

1 Corinthians 15:17
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; [/quote]

What is Paul doing here? He is telling the Corinthians, your faith is not built on how you feel, rather it is built on the Resurrection of Christ, and if this Resurrection did not in fact take place, then your faith is useless, no matter how you feel!

Now let's look at what Peter said,

2 Peter 1:16
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. [/quote]

What Peter is saying here is that, religion creates clever stories to appeal to the emotions, that is not based on fact, however, that is not what we have done, rather we were EYEWITNESSES! There is one of the courtroom words again.

The Christian faith stands or falls on historical claims. If these historical claims are found to be false, then it matters not about emotion. Now this is just the start, I could continue on, and on, so this is just a bit of evidence against your claim,

@It appears to me that the Gospels and Epistles are doing nothing but exuding emotional pleas, and are incredibly absent any intellectual content.[/quote]

The ball is now in your court!

[Zzyzx]

Isn't emotion a large part of religion?

It may be a large part of religion, but I would ask, can you demonstrate that it has anything at all, to do with the Christian Faith, according to the Bible? In other words, can you demonstrate from the Bible, where we are told the emotions are involved, in determining whether or not it is true? My point is, the Bible never attempts to evoke emotion, feelings, and never attempts to create an experience, and point to these things, as the evidence of it's truth.

Emotionalism appears to be ABOUT the bible and the religious belief system on the part of people in debate as well as in real life. Many exhibit outward signs that they become enraptured at some times and angry or upset at others, in response to their religious beliefs.

Whether or not that emotionalism is taught by the bible is immaterial to this discussion.

In debate I observe frequent emotional appeals in threads as well as the emotion of hostility when religionists' claims and stories are questioned or challenged. I have received threats of "eternal damnation" and even physical threat (on a different site) in response to my challenging of religious pronouncements.

[bjs]

[Replying to Ooberman]


[Replying to post 21 by Haven]



We cannot debate every topic in every thread.

The topic of this thread is not to prove if there are in fact miraculous healings today, and I have made no assertions either way on that issue. The topic, according to the opening post, is the validity of Mr. Brown’s criticism and was phrase by asking, “Is he the apologist’s worst nightmare?�

The answer to that is a resounding “no� for at least three reasons:

1. The existence of frauds is well known and Christians have been talking about the dangers of frauds for centuries.

2. His “how to guide� for fake miracles is extremely simplistic and obvious. (The way he faked a blind person regaining his sight came down to little more than “have that person lie about it.�)

3. Very few apologists, and very few Christians in general, rely on faith healers and a central aspect of their faith.

If you enjoyed Mr. Brown’s show then great! However, it should be viewed and entertainment and nothing more.

[Danmark]

[Replying to Ooberman]


[Replying to post 21 by Haven]



We cannot debate every topic in every thread.

The topic of this thread is not to prove if there are in fact miraculous healings today, and I have made no assertions either way on that issue. The topic, according to the opening post, is the validity of Mr. Brown’s criticism and was phrase by asking, “Is he the apologist’s worst nightmare?�

The answer to that is a resounding “no� for at least three reasons:

1. The existence of frauds is well known and Christians have been talking about the dangers of frauds for centuries.

2. His “how to guide� for fake miracles is extremely simplistic and obvious. (The way he faked a blind person regaining his sight came down to little more than “have that person lie about it.�)

3. Very few apologists, and very few Christians in general, rely on faith healers and a central aspect of their faith.

If you enjoyed Mr. Brown’s show then great! However, it should be viewed and entertainment and nothing more.

One has to ask, why is it so many of these fraudulent Christian Faith healers are so successful? Even after they and their techniques have been exposed over and over, they continue to rake in the millions, bilking credulous Christians. Why doesn't the Christian community do a better job exposing these frauds? Why are so many Christians so susceptible to these criminal enterprises?

[Realworldjack]

Isn't emotion a large part of religion?

It may be a large part of religion, but I would ask, can you demonstrate that it has anything at all, to do with the Christian Faith, according to the Bible? In other words, can you demonstrate from the Bible, where we are told the emotions are involved, in determining whether or not it is true? My point is, the Bible never attempts to evoke emotion, feelings, and never attempts to create an experience, and point to these things, as the evidence of it's truth.

Emotionalism appears to be ABOUT the bible and the religious belief system on the part of people in debate as well as in real life. Many exhibit outward signs that they become enraptured at some times and angry or upset at others, in response to their religious beliefs.

Whether or not that emotionalism is taught by the bible is immaterial to this discussion.

In debate I observe frequent emotional appeals in threads as well as the emotion of hostility when religionists' claims and stories are questioned or challenged. I have received threats of "eternal damnation" and even physical threat (on a different site) in response to my challenging of religious pronouncements.

You say,

@Whether or not that emotionalism is taught by the bible is immaterial to this discussion. [/quote]

First of all I was not replying to you. But it is not, "immaterial," when Ooberman says,

O)It appears to me that the Gospels and Epistles are doing nothing but exuding emotional pleas, and are incredibly absent any intellectual content. [/quote]

And you yourself say,

@Isn't emotion a large part of religion?[/quote ]

When this is said, it becomes, relevant, don't you think? You also say,

@ In debate I observe frequent emotional appeals in threads as well as the emotion of hostility when religionists' claims and stories are questioned or challenged. I have received threats of "eternal damnation" and even physical threat (on a different site) in response to my challenging of religious pronouncements. [/quote ]

I have no doubt about this. This only means you are encountering Christians, who have based their belief, on an emotional experience, when the Bible never calls for us to do this. In other words, they more than likely do not know exactly what they believe, or why they believe it. I see this all the time myself, and call Christians out for it, as I have done here on this very thread! But just because there may be Christians like this does not mean, this is the way it should be. So, I would not base my opinion, on what those who claim to be Christians do, rather I would base it on what the actual teachings are, one of which is, we are not to base our belief on emotions!

[ElCodeMonkey]

One has to ask, why is it so many of these fraudulent Christian Faith healers are so successful? Even after they and their techniques have been exposed over and over, they continue to rake in the millions, bilking credulous Christians. Why doesn't the Christian community do a better job exposing these frauds? Why are so many Christians so susceptible to these criminal enterprises?

I think because the Christians are actually hypnotized as Derren Brown alludes. Check out the below video. It's completely hypnotic. This is what mega churches do just like the giant frauds (since, they too are giant frauds). If you already believe in God, these kinds of services will certainly get inside you and you'll feel the amazing presence of your own emotions. I still have a hard time not getting sucked into the feeling after so many years of be absorbed into it.

[Ooberman]

[Replying to post 56 by ElCodeMonkey]

That's a perfect example of how religion and theater is so closely intertwined. Paul and the early Christians were, obviously, great at stirring up emotion. It's what made them popular.

A monotone preacher doesn't gain converts.

If you take a look at the quote Realworldjack posted, you can see it's fully emotional. There are few facts in the piece.

2=2=4. That's factual and unemotional.

1+1+1=1, that's all emotional...

[Zzyzx]

. . . you are encountering Christians, who have based their belief, on an emotional experience, when the Bible never calls for us to do this.

Does the bible promote the emotions of love and fear? Does it credit its "god" with emotions of jealousy, hatred, anger, disappointment, etc?

In other words, they more than likely do not know exactly what they believe, or why they believe it.

I do not disagree that many Christians do not seem to know exactly what they believe or why they believe it.

I also observe that many who seem very confident that they know what they believe and why – are often pointing in very different directions. There is a great deal of disagreement in Christendom about what the "teachings" really mean and who are the REAL Christians.

Do you demonstrate this yourself by unfavorable comments directed toward fellow Christians who believe or interpret differently from your beliefs and interpretations? Perhaps they think you are as wrong as you think they are. Are you "right" or are they – and by whose reading of the bible?

Would it not be more appropriate to say that religious beliefs are a very personal matter and that each person's beliefs should be in accord with themselves rather than seeking approval or agreement from others?

I see this all the time myself, and call Christians out for it, as I have done here on this very thread! But just because there may be Christians like this does not mean, this is the way it should be.

This demonstrates that there are many (thousands of) different "interpretations" of scripture – each of which is claimed to be correct.

So, I would not base my opinion, on what those who claim to be Christians do, rather I would base it on what the actual teachings are, one of which is, we are not to base our belief on emotions!

As a resident of the infamous bible belt, I have ample opportunity to observe what self-proclaimed Christians DO. In my opinion the actions of followers reflect the values they were taught (whether by reading the bible or by accepting what religious leaders teach).

[Zzyzx]

you'll feel the amazing presence of your own emotions.

Excellent observation, "amazing presence of your own emotions."

Many people tend to be highly emotional and to base decisions largely on emotion rather than reasoning.

[Ooberman]

. . . you are encountering Christians, who have based their belief, on an emotional experience, when the Bible never calls for us to do this.

Does the bible promote the emotions of love and fear? Does it credit its "god" with emotions of jealousy, hatred, anger, disappointment, etc?

In other words, they more than likely do not know exactly what they believe, or why they believe it.

I do not disagree that many Christians do not seem to know exactly what they believe or why they believe it.

I also observe that many who seem very confident that they know what they believe and why – are often pointing in very different directions. There is a great deal of disagreement in Christendom about what the "teachings" really mean and who are the REAL Christians.

Do you demonstrate this yourself by unfavorable comments directed toward fellow Christians who believe or interpret differently from your beliefs and interpretations? Perhaps they think you are as wrong as you think they are. Are you "right" or are they – and by whose reading of the bible?

Would it not be more appropriate to say that religious beliefs are a very personal matter and that each person's beliefs should be in accord with themselves rather than seeking approval or agreement from others?

I see this all the time myself, and call Christians out for it, as I have done here on this very thread! But just because there may be Christians like this does not mean, this is the way it should be.

This demonstrates that there are many (thousands of) different "interpretations" of scripture – each of which is claimed to be correct.

So, I would not base my opinion, on what those who claim to be Christians do, rather I would base it on what the actual teachings are, one of which is, we are not to base our belief on emotions!

As a resident of the infamous bible belt, I have ample opportunity to observe what self-proclaimed Christians DO. In my opinion the actions of followers reflect the values they were taught (whether by reading the bible or by accepting what religious leaders teach).

This is why I have repeatedly asked Christians to name Good Christians, so we know them when we see them.


Instead, they avoid the question - but then are quick to point out the bad ones as a generalization, of a few obviously bad people.

It's very much like sport fans. It's the same thing.