Darren Brown

[Ooberman]

Is he the apologists worst nightmare?

http://youtu.be/jYjgeayfYPI

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 40 by Realworldjack]

I am not one to fake anything either. Which is why I've never been able to speak in Tongues. All Christianity ever had going for it was the feeling. I originally thought it was truth simply because I was told so and I trusted those telling me. The feelings and coincidences solidified the belief. But I am not one to rely solely on feelings without actual proof and I've learned that coincidences regarding me are pretty moot when people with greater problems don't get equal treatment. When I finally realized it was worth questioning what was given to me, I started realizing there was indeed no proof or even evidence whatsoever. You speak of objective evidence but there really isn't any. You can find historical evidence of places and names, but not the corroboration of their stories. Historians generally agree that Jesus existed but that doesn't mean he did any or all of what was spoken of about him. All the evidence points away from Christianity and every other religion known to man. I can't think of a single piece of evidence that points towards Christianity as true. Evidence shows that everything Christianity ever was is entirely plausible as illusion, hoax, misunderstanding, and deceit. It's a valid question to ask "Did God really say?" when it's third-party information. I can tell you God told you to jump off a bridge. Doesn't it seem wise to ask, "Did God really say?" God never told me anything. The Bible never even told me anything either. Rather, a Christian tells me that the Bible says that Paul says that God says. And I can't help but ask, "Did God really say?" I think it's a valid question. God did not tell me anything so I am certainly not questioning God. I am questioning what man said man translated what man copied what man said what Jesus said what God said. I could probably insert more "what man copied" and "man ordained" in there somewhere. In the end, you're taking man's word. Not God's. I certainly agree that Derren Brown proves nothing, but he does at least show easy alternative options to ponder as potential truth. It helps to build an Occam's Razor argument.

[Thunderbuckett]

O sorry, I didn't mean it that way. Ok well I think the article is over all demonstrating how the show he planned is staged to make the experiences look wrong but they don't really do anything to prove they are not valid. the way ti's a staged show makes it not scientific. It's not trust worthy.

Certainly there's a lot of "TV" that goes into it to make it more appealing to the audience. And it's difficult to know for certain what is staged and what is not. I'm personally struggling with the idea that he can hypnotize someone such that weeks later he can call them up on a cell phone and put them to sleep with mere words. I just don't buy it. So if that's fake, who knows what else is as well. That being said, unless there is proof of something being actually staged as opposed to being assumed, then it's hard to say he was taken down. The article may indeed be correct, but I don't recall any direct proof.

he has no control to decide that they are having bonified religoius experience. he has nothing to compare to. he's just assuming if they say they do it must be the same as all others who say they do.

Which begs the question - how does ANYONE know they are having a religious experience?

that's what I just said there's a standard control called the "M scale" that's based upon validation of a theory that is based upon the writings of all the mystics around the world. But none of the reserachers that are trying to destroy religoius experience use it.

I know Hinman claims "ya just know" or judges it by the positive effects after the fact.

who? Never heard of the bum.There's a scientific way do it, that is to compare to the standard. The standard is established through the validation of Stace's theory.

If a drunk sobers up, it's God. If he falters, it wasn't really God, but then if he sobers back up for 20 years.., it's God... falls... not God..

upon what basis do you compare religious experience to being drunk? are you that much afraid of emotions? do you not know you have them. Do you not understand mental health is about dealing with emotions not pretending you don't have them?

Being drunks is loss of control. Religious experience is finding control. you are not out of control are you? no you are not. so how are they similar?

Hinman (aka Metacrock) tends to do a lot of post hoc rationalization.

Well he sure sounds like an idiot. why doesn't he ever talk about the m scale. that's the proven empirical scientific way to understand religious experience. One one would think he would talk about it.

Here TB is doing a similar thing. He wants to say "if it's real, it's real, but anytime we know it's fake it's obviously not the real thing - and we know the difference because there's an a priori difference.."

Yet, we have no idea is ALL religious experiences are exactly the same as the fake ones.

can you show me where he says that? I just looked on his website and he doesn't say anything like that. I don't think you understand anything he says.

Is that what I did? let's try to think about it? can we analyze what is said?

I said there's a scientific means that prove proven through validating a theory that shows the standard for the experience. Since we know the standard it's not hard to say what doesn't meet the standard is it? is that ad hoc? why? what's ad hoc about it?

[Ooberman]

TB why not start a thread about the M-Scale. I'm sure we will all be fascinated.

As it is, I don't see the difference between what Darren Brown did and what other Faith healers do.

Do you have any cases of verified miracles? Perhaps of a leg getting longer?

[Thunderbuckett]

TB why not start a thread about the M-Scale. I'm sure we will all be fascinated.

As it is, I don't see the difference between what Darren Brown did and what other Faith healers do.

Do you have any cases of verified miracles? Perhaps of a leg getting longer?

we don't know what he did. He just evoked a bunch of emotions. where is your evidence that mystical experience is nothing but emotion?

[Ooberman]

TB why not start a thread about the M-Scale. I'm sure we will all be fascinated.

As it is, I don't see the difference between what Darren Brown did and what other Faith healers do.

Do you have any cases of verified miracles? Perhaps of a leg getting longer?

we don't know what he did. He just evoked a bunch of emotions. where is your evidence that mystical experience is nothing but emotion?

1. Will you start a thread on the M-Scale?

2. He showed how to do the leg-lengthening trick. We know EXACTLY what he did.

3. The burden is on you to provide some account of the "mystical".

I'm wondering, do you think Darren Brown's tricks are real or not? It's hard to get a bead on what you think of them.

[Realworldjack]

TB why not start a thread about the M-Scale. I'm sure we will all be fascinated.

As it is, I don't see the difference between what Darren Brown did and what other Faith healers do.

Do you have any cases of verified miracles? Perhaps of a leg getting longer?

we don't know what he did. He just evoked a bunch of emotions. where is your evidence that mystical experience is nothing but emotion?

Hello Thunder,

You seem to me to be a Christian. I am a Christian as well. You also seem to be attempting to defend mystical experiences, as evidence for the Christian Faith. I myself, as a Christian, am opposed to mystical experiences, and believe they have no place in the Christian Faith. In other words I do not believe God communicates to us through mystical experiences. The Apostles never spoke of mystical experiences, and never instructed anyone to ever seek them, so then the Apostles never pointed to the subjective as evidence, rather they pointed to objective historical facts, as they claimed to witness. So, my question to you is. How do you defend, mystical experiences, according to Scripture?

I believe Derren Brown has done us as Christians a great favor, by exposing something I already knew which was that many, many, Churches attempt to create these experiences, and then point to these experiences, as evidence. But as I said, this is something the Apostles, never did, in fact they warned against it. With this being said, I am certainly glad, Mr. Brown has exposed this, my only regret is that more Christians are not exposing it!

[Zzyzx]

I myself, as a Christian, am opposed to mystical experiences, and believe they have no place in the Christian Faith. In other words I do not believe God communicates to us through mystical experiences.

I believe Derren Brown has done us as Christians a great favor, by exposing something I already knew which was that many, many, Churches attempt to create these experiences, and then point to these experiences, as evidence.

Thank you RWJ for presenting a "Thinking Man's Christianity" to offset the more fundamental or fanatical views that are so common in these threads and elsewhere.

Your views seem similar to those of one of my mentors in life -- an Episcopal college chaplain (on matters other than religion). When one sets aside the mystical or dogmatic and focuses on "love one another", there is no objection or challenge from me (and little to debate since our views on many or most things in real life will probably be similar).

[Zzyzx]

we don't know what he did.

The video illustrated pretty clearly that an illusion of faith healing was created and that it was convincing to people.

He just evoked a bunch of emotions.

Isn't emotion a large part of religion?

where is your evidence that mystical experience is nothing but emotion?

Are you asking someone to provide evidence of what they have not said?


Regarding evidence: are you prepared to provide evidence (other than testimonials, opinions, conjecture, and ancient texts) to support any claims or statements you make?

[Realworldjack]

we don't know what he did.

The video illustrated pretty clearly that an illusion of faith healing was created and that it was convincing to people.

He just evoked a bunch of emotions.

Isn't emotion a large part of religion?

where is your evidence that mystical experience is nothing but emotion?

Are you asking someone to provide evidence of what they have not said?


Regarding evidence: are you prepared to provide evidence (other than testimonials, opinions, conjecture, and ancient texts) to support any claims or statements you make?

You say,

@Isn't emotion a large part of religion? [/quote]

It may be a large part of religion, but I would ask, can you demonstrate that it has anything at all, to do with the Christian Faith, according to the Bible? In other words, can you demonstrate from the Bible, where we are told the emotions are involved, in determining whether or not it is true? My point is, the Bible never attempts to evoke emotion, feelings, and never attempts to create an experience, and point to these things, as the evidence of it's truth.

[Ooberman]

My point is, the Bible never attempts to evoke emotion, feelings, and never attempts to create an experience, and point to these things, as the evidence of it's truth.

This comment is either soaking wet with - no drowning in - sarcasm, or the greatest indication of how vastly different Believers view the Bible than nonbelievers.

It appears to me that the Gospels and Epistles are doing nothing but exuding emotional pleas, and are incredibly absent any intellectual content.