How does Jesus's "sacrifice" make any kind of sens

[rikuoamero]

This is for the theists, of course.

Just how does it make sense? What is the debt? Why is there a debt, and how is it to be repaid?

According to standard Christian theology, there was a tree with some fruit that was forbidden to the first humans. The fruit was eaten anyway, and some punishments were handed out.
Surely that should have been the end of it right? But no, according to Christians, someone just HAD to die. Which is strange, considering that nothing of what Adam and Eve did had anything to do with death; the loss of their supposed immortality was not done by them directly, but as a part of the punishment handed out by their god.
Even so...even if we ignore that...how does Jesus dying 'solve' that, or mitigate that?

Would it have worked if Jesus had lain down in a bathtub and slit his wrists? Or hung himself, entirely of his own volition?
I'm guessing no...I'm guessing that what just HAD to be done was for some corrupt priests (were they corrupt? Apparently they were only obeying their god's laws!) called for his execution and had him nailed to a piece of wood, with Jesus not resisting in any way.
So what does that accomplish? What does that show? From what I can see, it only shows that (some) people can kill, are ready and willing to do so, in the name of their god even if (apparently) this "isn't" what God wants (but it is!)

Now, I'm going to guess I'm going to get answers that ignore most, if not all, of what I said. I will be told that the only acceptable sacrifice was Jesus, since he's a sinless, perfect human. Notice that I didn't comment on that part.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 47 by JehovahsWitness]

Doesn't it strike you as odd, that a creature with the characteristics you describe (God), uses such ineffective and illogical approaches to accomplish such odd things, when literally acting differently, or simply changing perspective would accomplish the same goals?

I mean it's supposed to be all-knowing right? Capable of knowing our intentions and very souls?

Doesn't it bother you all those things posited by the religion are unnecessary for such a creature? Why should it judge imperfect creature's actions, when it use its own perfect judgment to make decisions?

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 50 by JehovahsWitness]

So having been punished as justice demanded, why then are we still not free to enter Heaven? I've broken many windows, sure. Now that I've been punished for breaking them, why am I still being treated as a criminal? I don't need to be freed from my condition of unavoidablly breaking windows when there is an alternative of just simply serve the time for said broken windows.

[rikuoamero]

• Yes Jehovah's Witnesses believe that our own death doesn't make us sin free and that's why we need Jesus.

Any questions?

Does that not contradict directly with "If someone is judged unworthy of future life then when their death comes (however it comes) it will be viewed as payment for the sins that one has committed during their lives."

No it doesn't. I used the expression "pay for" as in "punished". A willful murderer who isn't forgiven by God will be judged and held accuntable for his crime. In colloquial english we say he will "pay" for his crime, probably with his life, meaning he will be held accountable and be punished for what he did. Jesus sacrifice was for the elimination of the sinful condition he inherited from Adam which played a part in his committing such a crime. Even having been punished ("paid for") or forgiven for that crime a murderer remains a sinner that will inevitably sin again. At no point then are any descendant of Adam "sin free" because sin is inside of us, as much a part of us as our blood. Our sinful (imperfect) condition is a fundamental part of our human nature.

Are you making the distinction between having paid the wages for one's sin and being sin free?

The biblical expression " the wages for one's sin is death " means, all sin leads to death. The "wages" here is not a metaphor for the ransom. No descendant of Adam can exist without committing a sin (in thought or action) nor can they without the ransom have any hope of being "sin free" (free from imperfection, free from the inclination or the weakness that inevitability leads to sinful thoughts or action./u])

A person's death cannot free them from their sinful nature, but it does mean they will no longer to be held accountable (and punishable) for the sinful actions or crimes they committed during their life.


JWs

What I'm parsing from that post...is that what Jesus supposedly did was basically utterly pointless. He's the second Adam, the second perfect human, the only one who can pay for the random, but even when he does...nothing. This sin thing he's supposed to deal with remains.

JW how many times does an all knowing all powerful creature have to fail in its stated goals before you agree with our assessment: that described as he is, your God is a failure?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Jesus is] the second Adam, the second perfect human, the only one who can pay for the random...

Excellent, that is exactly right.

but ... this sin thing he's supposed to deal with remains.

For now, yes.

When will obedient humans enjoy the full benefits of the ransom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 010#854010

Why has God waited THOUSANDS of years to settle the issues raised in Eden?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 022#910022

[JehovahsWitness]

So having been punished as justice demanded, why then are we still not free to enter Heaven? I've broken many windows, sure. Now that I've been punished for breaking them, why am I still being treated as a criminal? I don't need to be freed from my condition of unavoidablly breaking windows when there is an alternative of just simply serve the time for said broken windows.

RESPONSE Because there is no place for sin in heaven/paradise. Sin is disruptive, harmful and damaging both to the sinner and to others, particularly the vulnerable.

Your question is like saying to a Father: I'm a convicted peodophile, I'm not repentant nor have I been cured of my condition, but that's not a problem, I've served my time for my last rape of a child and I'm willing to do prison time after I rape your kids, can I move in? What would be the Father's answer?

The meek have had to put up with the wicked for thousands of years. The revolving door of sin and punishment has been an unavoidable feature of such an existence but it has meant much suffering of the innocent. Jehovah has a better way, those that want to be cured of their sinful condition can repent of their sins, accept the benefits of the ransom and live respecting the Divine standards. Those that refuse can die.

Nobody will be forced to live by God's standards, but Jehovah will not oblige the righteous to have to live alongside the wicked forever.


JW

[Willum]

[Replying to post 54 by JehovahsWitness]

As usual, Riku has a great point.

So Adam was the first perfect man, and he goofed epic-time.
What makes you God's second perfect man, born in worse times, would turn out any better?

The only thing that allows you to believe Jesus was any good is to define him as being perfect. But Adam was a perfect man too, and he failed.

He failed, God failed, Jesus is only successful because you define his failures as being part of some perfect yet inexplicable plan.

This is flawed.

Isn't it about time you abandoned the religion as flawed?

[Bust Nak]

RESPONSE Because there is no place for sin in heaven/paradise. Sin is disruptive, harmful and damaging both to the sinner and to others, particularly the vulnerable.

Right, but that doesn't answer my question, why am I barred from heaven when I have already been punished for my sin? Are you suggesting that someone can sin in heaven?

Your question is like saying to a Father: I'm a convicted peodophile, I'm not repentant nor have I been cured of my condition, but that's not a problem, I've served my time for my last rape of a child and I'm willing to do prison time after I rape your kids, can I move in? What would be the Father's answer?

You tell me what it would be, I can only tell you what the answer should be: "Sure, I love you as my own biologically kid, and it's not a problem since all the residents here are pedophiles to various degree, you've served your time and there is no further risk so, welcome."

Once again it seems you are suggesting sin is a real possibility in heaven.

The meek have had to put up with the wicked for thousands of years. The revolving door of sin and punishment has been an unavoidable feature of such an existence but it has meant much suffering of the innocent. Jehovah has a better way, those that want to be cured of their sinful condition can repent of their sins, accept the benefits of the ransom and live respecting the Divine standards. Those that refuse can die.

Nobody will be forced to live by God's standards, but Jehovah will not oblige the righteous to have to live alongside the wicked forever.

But the wicked are already getting into heaven, the so called "righteous" are merely forgiven. The implication here is that the "righteous" are somehow better behaved but the Bible made it clear that good behavior and doesn't get you into heaven re: dirty rags. The best of the hell bounded, are categorically better people than the worse of the "righteous" in terms of causing suffering to innocents. It's not that hard to find a nice atheist and a nasty but genuine Christian.

If said nice atheist can pay for the wages of sin without Jesus, how is he not getting into heaven first before than the believer?

[rikuoamero]

[Jesus is] the second Adam, the second perfect human, the only one who can pay for the random...

Excellent, that is exactly right.

but ... this sin thing he's supposed to deal with remains.

For now, yes.

When will obedient humans enjoy the full benefits of the ransom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 010#854010

Why has God waited THOUSANDS of years to settle the issues raised in Eden?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 022#910022

I notice you ignored completely my question, about your God being a failure. While of course you can do that, I'd like to ask why.
If you disagree with my assessment, please explain the numerous times God states a goal and then does not accomplish it. Especially Jesus. Apparently not even Jesus can deal with this sin thing.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 54 by JehovahsWitness]

As usual, Riku has a great point.

So Adam was the first perfect man, and he goofed epic-time.
What makes you God's second perfect man, born in worse times, would turn out any better?

The only thing that allows you to believe Jesus was any good is to define him as being perfect. But Adam was a perfect man too, and he failed.

He failed, God failed, Jesus is only successful because you define his failures as being part of some perfect yet inexplicable plan.

This is flawed.

Isn't it about time you abandoned the religion as flawed?

Makes me think that either these men weren't perfect...or that perfection itself isn't as great as it's claimed to be.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Jesus is] the second Adam, the second perfect human, the only one who can pay for the random...

Excellent, that is exactly right.

but ... this sin thing he's supposed to deal with remains.

For now, yes.

When will obedient humans enjoy the full benefits of the ransom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 010#854010

Why has God waited THOUSANDS of years to settle the issues raised in Eden?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 022#910022

I notice you ignored completely my question, about your God being a failure. While of course you can do that, I'd like to ask why.

♦ RESPONSE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 395#853395

If you disagree with my assessment, please explain the numerous times God states a goal and then does not accomplish it.

♦ Could you provide and example of one of these "numerous times"?



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Why has it taken thousand of years to settle the issues raised in Eden?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 803#886803