Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[marco]

If we wiped out Socrates we'd have to wipe out anything and everything anyone wrote about him. We are not prepared to that that simply because things he said made sense.

I didn't suggest wiping out Socrates - I said it would make little difference to our way of life. I believe he lived and taught and chose his method of ending his life by poison rather than exile.

Things Jesus' disciples and all the others who happened to write about Him gives us the credibility by which we can take everything else about Him as genuine. Just because it is beyond our understanding, comprehension, does not mean His experience is not genuine. We also have countless others who have experienced and can vouch for the reality Jesus spoke about.

I am not questioning the reality of Jesus, but the supernatural bits of his life. People can attest what they want; we don't have to accept their testimony.

[Monta]

[Replying to marco]

"I am not questioning the reality of Jesus, but the supernatural bits of his life. People can attest what they want; we don't have to accept their testimony."

Quite true.
We don't have to and we who do, do so freely.

[marco]

[Replying to marco]

"I am not questioning the reality of Jesus, but the supernatural bits of his life. People can attest what they want; we don't have to accept their testimony."

Quite true.
We don't have to and we who do, do so freely.

Then as the poet Browning observed, God's in his heaven, all's right with the world. There was of course a time when acceptance was not a free choice. and in some religions escaping from acceptance means death. God could make himself much clearer.

[PghPanther]

[Replying to post 510 by PghPanther]


"That's it........science deals with reality......and faith deals with a proclaimed reality outside of the only one we've been able to validate. "

Science is exactly the same.
Just watched ytube on CERN.
They are going into ares and they just don't know how it's
going to end up.
Christian religion has a lot more going for it for we have Jesus the Christ who has been there and has descended to tell us all about it.
I am sure CERN would give their right arm to have that kind of information up their jumper

Not knowing and going to explore is the strength of science and the method it uses not it weakness it how we learn about reality and what it reveals to us................pretending that some ancient manuscripts by superstitious cultures has a lock on a claimed reality we find no evidence of is.................well delusional.

[PghPanther]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

Hello Zzyzx and H.sapiens,

You’re not yet convinced of the deity of Jesus?

Please remember the two thieves that were crucified beside Him. Both were skeptical and mocked Jesus. One ask Him to come down from the cross to save both if He is truly the Son of God. But the other thief came to himself and rebuked Him, ask if he fear God, and said that they both deserved their punishment in contrast to Jesus who was innocent. What reason then did they have to mock Jesus?

The second thief asked Jesus, “Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.� Jesus responded, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.� The repentant thief had all the proof he needed.

How did the second thief end up bold enough to ask Jesus the apparently ridiculous question? Wasn’t he a thief? As the thief realized the lamb-like innocency of the person dying the same cruel death he deserved contrasted with his depravity for which he deserved to die, the spirit of the Lord revealed the grace made available to him similar to the grace made available by the sacrificed lamb of Jewish OT culture. He became aware of the needed grace because of his honest, clean hearted confession of depravity and consequent repentance of heart.

Please also remember when Peter said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.� Jesus responded, “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.� The deity of Jesus was spiritually revealed to Peter, the thief, and to us.

Are you guys satisfied now? What more can I say?

Let me clarify other points you brought up on my last post.

I’m sorry for the assertions I made about the Grand Canyon and Mt. St. Helens without pointing to the material I read to back me up. If you care, I can point you to the material. Layered erosion similar to that seen in the Grand Canyon that supposedly occurred millions of years was found to have formed very quickly in other places such as Mr. St. Helens. But as long as there is war between the creation based and the secular worldviews, so is there a geology war.

Was the Bible authored by fallible man and God a figment of imagination? You want neither to be true. Yes, I mean you! Do you want hope beyond the woes of this life untrue? What are you to do with 1 Corinthians 15:17-19? Don’t you want a trusted standard for truth without which the words of none of us would mean anything? Is it a man-made myth that you and I will die as the Bible said?
Both of you testify of dangerous situations of which you narrowly escaped. You have only testified that God was with you as He was with me. I’m sure that you are not unthankful for His mercy in keeping you. As for Adolf Hitler’s survival from the assassination attempt, it was not yet time for him to die. God is in the affairs of all man.

Israel today and events surrounding Israel are very prominent examples of prophecy coming to pass. Please check out its history since 1948.

I know you guys by the fact that you and I personally communicate, not by our joining some kind of religion or hearing religionists talk. We also know God by personal communication. Please don’t think I should prove what you can prove for yourself, you lil turkeys! You have the proof!

Who can anyone trust if he can’t trust God? Who is left other than self? Does self know everything? Is self able to do everything, 100% trustworthy, and is totally independent? Deceivers are waiting to fill the trust vacuum by clever methods of making themselves appear genuine.

Take care
Earl

So a story about two guys hanging by Jesus is proof?..............Proof of Christ's deity?

Or the story of Peter's response to who Christ is?

in the Bible?

Are you serious?

In case you haven't figured this out....the Bible is not a historical recording of actual events.......its is a collection of manuscripts from people who have a belief system in a world view of the supernatural which have been accumulated and debated into a canon of books called a Bible for the sake of prosytelizing not documenting history or actual events............

You might as well site a story about superman and ask us how about proof that kryptonite impacts superman's powers........

Theology speaking you can defend your story telling............but you cannot validate that it is any part of reality.

[PghPanther]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

Interestingly your answer to me was using science but you failed to answer my main point of if your tool (science) works for what youre looking for. In my view, science can point to God but it is inadequate for the task for the most part.

Just a little history lesson here... Philosophers long ago thought that God was not needed until they realized their points boiled down to circuilarity or infinite regresses. Many came to terms with the simple logic that God (or a transcedent existence if you prefer the term) must exist for things to make sense, like to explain first cause, problem of consciousness, OBJECTIVE morality, and the biggest question, WHY are we here despite the astronomical odds that we couldve not existed as intelligent life. In other words, philosophers realized that philosophy is DEAD without a God concept or something alike to hinge on.

Keep in mind philosophy dominated for thousands of years as the intellectual discipline.

I have no doubt that science will follow the same course as philosophy. In fact its inevitable, science is built on philosophy anyways.

Here's science... Time and space had a beginning, ie a cause. Even the atheist Stephen Hawking has stated as much. What could possibly exist without or beyond time and space? All attempts to explain away this point results in circuilarity, the same pitfall that atheist philosophers fell to. Think about it!

You don't know enough about the current state of cosmology and subatomic physics to add any credence to your point...........Hawking has stated that our 4 dimensional space/time reality had a beginning but is more than likely a reconfiguration from a prior state..........on another dimensional construct where cause/effect (aka time as we define it in our reality) can be a quantum like fluctuation and not a singular directed increasing entropic process. More work needs to be done here but research in the LHC is bearing out such conditions. Such a state is eternal but unstable......

Research at the LHC is beginning to bear out that before our universe there may be a state that is eternal, infinite without a cause but unstable and therefore is a first cause without a cause.

Sound similar doesn't it?.............like the God claim but without the baggage of a prior state that is a personal intelligent being..........which begs far more questions than it answers....

The beauty of science is that it will continue to follow the path of where the evidence leads it and revise and or even reject along the way until we arrive a consistent and predictable model in reality.............God claims do nothing of the sort.

[theophile]

After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that: ?

Jesus was anything more than human? None

The more accurate biblical position would be that Jesus is the FULFILLMENT of what it means to be human, which is to be in the image and likeness of God. Not that he is anything MORE than human, but that he is human at its utmost.

So to answer your question with truth / evidence, we'd have to agree what it truly means to be human (and God); then we can look at Jesus to see if he fits that as per the biblical narrative.

Humans possess a soul? None

I don't know what this means. That we have an eternal essence or individuality that persists across the bounds of life? If so, I do think there is an individuality that all creatures possess, but I don't think that this individuality is separable from life... i.e., when life ceases, so too does this soul. When life re-emerges, then so too does this soul. Persistence is life itself.

An afterlife exists? None

Related to above. If there is an afterlife, it is not post-life but rather a re-emergence and continuation of life (and biblically speaking, this life is always more beautiful than before). That is what resurrection is. And resurrection is the greatest biblical promise and hope. (Well, maybe not greatest, but up there.)

But is there truth / evidence for resurrection? No. Jesus was what turned the hope in resurrection to something we could actually believe in (one of Paul's messages), but for us, so far removed from the event and any reliable witnesses, we are left only with hope once again. To hope, or truly hope, means that we affirm it without any evidence to back it up.

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

These fall into the same camp as the resurrection. There is, in my opinion, a fundamental view of reality portrayed in the bible, where through goodness, more things become possible (freedom expands), e.g., water can turn to wine, a few fish/loaves can feed thousands, the dead can return to life. The reverse is also true: that through evil, fewer things become possible (freedom contracts).

Just translate to the moral realm, and to a child. If the child is good, more things become possible (freedom expands) for that child. If the child is bad, his/her freedom contracts.

Is there truth / evidence for this view? History offers plenty. What happens under a totalitarian, i.e., evil, regime? Possibilities close down. What happens 'under' a regime that respects difference? Possibilities open up. Abilities flourish. Science thrives... Cancer becomes curable. Great distances become traversable. Things that before were not possible become possible...

You still have to take a leap of hope to get to something like resurrection, but it's not absolutely ridiculous to think that one day we could restore a life. Even from the ashes...

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc., occurred as described? None

I'm not going to call the bible anything more than a story (or set of stories) and claim historical accuracy. It's more the underlying philosophy and vision of humankind that is important. These events in the bible are related to what I've been describing. As evil increases, and freedom and possibilities close down, God intercedes in the story of human history to open things up. A human being, in its fullness, would do the same... Hence flooding the earth - not to close things down by killing off humankind but to break open the rule of an evil, totalitarian regime. Same the plagues in Egypt. Or the dispersion of the people of Babel...

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

See above. God intercedes in the story of human history with the end of justice, and expanding the creative freedom of a world that has closed down upon itself through evil.

Is there truth / evidence for this? Again, see above. It's a story, not history. The real question is whether we accept the underlying premises I've suggested that evil closes down possibilities and that God acts to keep things open so that creation can flourish.

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None

I don't know what this means either. Did God send them the words to write? No, that's ridiculous. But does that mean that the words they wrote do not reveal something of the divine?

Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

The biblical account is not against reasoned discussion and dialectical arrival at truth. I've returned a few reasoned responses that could open up the conversation.

1) What is it to be a human being in its fullness? Does this approximate what we think of God?

2) What is the relationship between good and evil and freedom? Does it, as I've contended here, lead to expansion and contraction of freedom respectively? And more and less becoming possible respectively?

More broadly, how do morality and metaphysics relate? I've suggested the biblical view... The relationship is significant...

3) Can we not see in the expansion of freedom through goodness the basis for miracles? Or things that were not possible becoming possible?

4) Can we not understand the story of God's intercession in human history as actions to keep things open, and to break up oppressive rules that would close down creation?

5) What is the difference between a divinely inspired text and a text that hits upon something really important and truthful in its story-telling?

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 526 by theophile]

Thank you for the reasoned reply Theo

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

The more accurate biblical position would be that Jesus is the FULFILLMENT of what it means to be human, which is to be in the image and likeness of God. Not that he is anything MORE than human, but that he is human at its utmost.

Notice that the question asks for verifiable evidence beyond Bible tales etc.

Keeping in mind that Bible stories are NOT considered authoritative or proof of truth in these debates, “the Bible says so� is meaningless.

Is there corroborating evidence from verifiable disconnected sources?

So to answer your question with truth / evidence, we'd have to agree what it truly means to be human

Biologists identify what constitutes human – Homo sapiens sapiens.

When one adds “truly means� they are injecting opinions and emotions into the question.

(and God); then we can look at Jesus to see if he fits that as per the biblical narrative.

If Jesus “fit� the Bible narrative in stories (including the “prophesies�) recorded long after his death what would that tell us? Any of us can “predict� with 100% accuracy the outcome of past presidential elections – and backdate our writing to the 1800s.

Remember that the earliest copy available of Bible stories dates from the Fourth Century.

Even more interesting, the earliest existing copy of the Torah itself dates from Middle Ages – 1200 range.

Humans possess a soul? None

I don't know what this means.

No one seems to know what “soul� means – but many seem convinced that humans have one that transcends death.

That we have an eternal essence or individuality that persists across the bounds of life? If so, I do think there is an individuality that all creatures possess, but I don't think that this individuality is separable from life... i.e., when life ceases, so too does this soul.

I do not disagree.

When life re-emerges, then so too does this soul. Persistence is life itself.

“When life re-emerges? Has it been established that life “re-emerges�? Or is that unsubstantiated conjecture?

An afterlife exists? None

Related to above. If there is an afterlife, it is not post-life but rather a re-emergence and continuation of life (and biblically speaking, this life is always more beautiful than before). That is what resurrection is. And resurrection is the greatest biblical promise and hope. (Well, maybe not greatest, but up there.)

Opinion noted. Kindly provide verifiable evidence to support the contention / speculation.

But is there truth / evidence for resurrection? No.

Agreed

Jesus was what turned the hope in resurrection to something we could actually believe in (one of Paul's messages), but for us, so far removed from the event and any reliable witnesses, we are left only with hope once again. To hope, or truly hope, means that we affirm it without any evidence to back it up.

Exactly – “hope with nothing to back it up�.

Many of us were not conditioned or convinced to base decisions on “hope with nothing to back it up� (though some once were and got over their conditioning). Instead we can base decisions on what can be shown to be truthful and accurate (and actually work) in the real world.

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

These fall into the same camp as the resurrection.

Exactly – no verification by disconnected sources – only stories that tell the tales.

There is, in my opinion, a fundamental view of reality portrayed in the bible,

The view of reality portrayed in the Bible is that of people living in a era when knowledge and understanding of the real world was very limited – and when “gods, messiahs, prophets, faith healers, spirits, demons, devils, etc represented “state of the art knowledge� and were widely accepted.

where through goodness, more things become possible (freedom expands), e.g., water can turn to wine, a few fish/loaves can feed thousands, the dead can return to life.

Is it ACTUALLY possible for water to turn into wine, thousands be fed from a few fish and loaves, the dead return to life?

Or, are there STORIES about such things that many believe happened long ago and far away?

The reverse is also true: that through evil, fewer things become possible (freedom contracts).

Under “evil� conditions, freedom may expand for some and contract for others.

Just translate to the moral realm, and to a child. If the child is good, more things become possible (freedom expands) for that child. If the child is bad, his/her freedom contracts.

That may be true sometimes, false sometimes.

The “bad� child may well be one who explores many possibilities and does not accept limitations imposed by others. This can open vast opportunities to learn and accomplish.

I say that as one of the “bad� children. Mom said “You were more trouble to raise than all THREE of your brothers put together� (emphasis hers). As a result I often went “where angels fear to tread� and emerged smiling – did many things that my “good� contemporaries only dreamed about – live (and lived) a full, rewarding, satisfying life that is not “ordinary� in ANY sense.

In fact, “I gained a great deal of freedom when I decided that what others thought of my actions was of no importance to me.�

BTW, Mom also taught her sons to “Think, then do what you decide is best regardless what others think, say or do�. I took her up on that – in spades (more so than my brothers – though they were pretty feisty too).

Is there truth / evidence for this view? History offers plenty. What happens under a totalitarian, i.e., evil, regime? Possibilities close down.

Some totalitarian regimes (defined simply as “a government where the ruler has complete control� or “a centralized government that does not tolerate parties of differing opinion and that exercises dictatorial control over many aspects of life�) produce remarkable achievements. Egypt, Greece, Rome, Russia and Germany come to mind as past examples.

BTW, are totalitarian regimes necessarily “evil�?

What happens 'under' a regime that respects difference? Possibilities open up. Abilities flourish. Science thrives... Cancer becomes curable. Great distances become traversable. Things that before were not possible become possible...

None of those examples are exclusive to “regimes that respect difference�.

You still have to take a leap of hope to get to something like resurrection, but it's not absolutely ridiculous to think that one day we could restore a life. Even from the ashes...

If long dead bodies can reanimate, Jesus was nothing special. Note that there are Bible tales of many people “resurrecting� – and tales in other religions making the same claims.

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc., occurred as described? None

I'm not going to call the bible anything more than a story (or set of stories) and claim historical accuracy.

Agree

It's more the underlying philosophy and vision of humankind that is important.

Much of the philosophy and vision of those ancient writers does not apply to the modern world.

These events in the bible are related to what I've been describing. As evil increases, and freedom and possibilities close down, God intercedes in the story of human history to open things up.

“God intercedes� is conjecture.

A human being, in its fullness, would do the same... Hence flooding the earth - not to close things down by killing off humankind but to break open the rule of an evil, totalitarian regime.

If that was a true story, the “break open the rule of an evil, totalitarian regime� with a worldwide flood doesn't seem to have worked very well in spite of draconian measures. Such regimes have existed throughout history (supposedly post-flood).

Same the plagues in Egypt. Or the dispersion of the people of Babel...

Are those literally true stories?

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

See above. God intercedes in the story of human history with the end of justice, and expanding the creative freedom of a world that has closed down upon itself through evil.

Kindly provide verifiable evidence that “God intercedes� – with something more substantial than unverifiable ancient tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions.

Is there truth / evidence for this? Again, see above. It's a story, not history. The real question is whether we accept the underlying premises I've suggested that evil closes down possibilities and that God acts to keep things open so that creation can flourish.

“Evil� may limit or close possibilities for some. However, no verifiable evidence has been presented to show that “God� did anything to “keep things open�

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None

I don't know what this means either.

Evidently no one knows – but many seem to have opinions.

My opinion is that Bible writers felt “motivated� to write their opinions about God – and the “God inspired� part was attributed to them by others

Did God send them the words to write? No, that's ridiculous.

Agreed

But does that mean that the words they wrote do not reveal something of the divine?

There is no evidence in either direction.

Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

The biblical account is not against reasoned discussion and dialectical arrival at truth. I've returned a few reasoned responses that could open up the conversation.

Let's open those in a separate thread

[Volbrigade]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

To me, one of the evidences of the veracity of Biblical Christianity is the perfect balance between belief and unbelief.

If you want to believe that God created the cosmos, and became a man in order to redeem man to Him, verifying that by rising from the dead into an eternal, spiritual, hyperdimensional mode of existence capable of manifesting in our bounded one like a cube manifesting as a square in a flat plane --

there is every reason to. You will find validation for your belief everywhere you look.

On the other hand:

if you want to believe that the universe is the product of mindless causes that happened, by an endless series of random events, to coalesce into an illusion of detailed design and order, against odds that extend to hundreds of orders of magnitude; and that your own life is merely an expression of those long odds, and you are an assemblage of matter at a particular juncture of time and space, and that which you call your "life" is a fleeting event that has precisely the meaning and value that YOU -- and only you -- assign to it (if any); and that when the physical processes that energize your brief period of animation grind to a halt due to the inescapable entropy that affects this universe, then you will return to a state of disassociated constitute elements, as if you never existed in the first place:

you will find every reason in the world to support that view, as well.

In short --

seek and you will find.

If you look for God, you will find Him.

If you run from God, you won't.

"Some people can't find God for the same reason a burglar can't find a policeman".

Belief is like a board, perfectly balanced on the apex of a pyramid. It is the feather weight of your own will that tips the board to one side or the other.

Here is a perfect example of my point:

Any of the claimed events such as floods...

To the believer, the entire geologic and fossil record is evidence of a "recent" (relatively speaking) catastrophic flood that repaved the planet, and encased its flora and fauna in massive flows of sedimentary material, as if in wet concrete.

The unbeliever must view the same evidence as being the product of slow and gradual processes over eons of time.

He must also dismiss or rationalize the plethora of evidences for a "young" creation", and the plausibility of such in light of our recent advances of scientific understanding.

It is therefore useless to talk about "verifiable claims" produced by "empirical evidence" that remove all doubt. There are none. On either side. That itself is by skillful design.

Faith is a matter of the heart, mind, and will. So is lack of faith.

So it has always been.

So it shall continue to be --

until our Lord returns, and removes all doubt.

That will be your "empirical evidence", sho' 'nuff.

Whether you will enjoy examining it -- or being examined by it -- is another matter.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 528 by Volbrigade]

Belief is like a board, perfectly balanced on the apex of a pyramid. It is the feather weight of your own will that tips the board to one side or the other.

So to sum it up, you believe God created the universe and made it look equally created and uncreated. You think people like Zzyzx have a pre-determined belief on this matter.

It is therefore useless to talk about "verifiable claims" produced by "empirical evidence" that remove all doubt. There are none. On either side. That itself is by skillful design.

This would then mean one doesn't believe either side. One would have to be neutral on this matter. You however, despite saying this, believe there is a creator god. Your belief violates what you've said here.