Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[earendil]

Okay. Present the complex answers. Readers may be interested. Excuses don't count.

I cannot type the entire content of the book into this forum...and every single word is required for one to understand the argument. I do not even begin discussing the historical Christ until the 15th chapter. That is how much remedial discussion is required to lay the proper foundations.

I will give a short overview outlining the steps in explanation.

1. Show how Scientific methodology can be used correctly in the investigation of paranormal claims.
2. From this it follows that you can show that the human soul exists.
3. From this it can be shown that God exists.
4. Lengthy discussion of the effects on human behavior caused by the presence of the soul.
5. How the concept of redemption resolves defective behavior caused by the presence of the soul.
6. How the historical Christ relates to redemption.
7. Discussion of other paranormal details.
8. Discussion of religion as it stands now.

While I have referenced my own work (which is normal in scientific papers when continuing from the published work). The book references many different works, and some very interesting research and some actual experiments that were done...all relevant to the argument.

(The book is: The Science Behind the Christ)

[H.sapiens]

Okay. Present the complex answers. Readers may be interested. Excuses don't count.

I cannot type the entire content of the book into this forum...and every single word is required for one to understand the argument. I do not even begin discussing the historical Christ until the 15th chapter. That is how much remedial discussion is required to lay the proper foundations.

The error there is that once the foolishness of item one is exposed there is no need to go through all that other chapters.

I will give a short overview outlining the steps in explanation.

1. Show how Scientific methodology can be used correctly in the investigation of paranormal claims. Read: A Field Guide to Critical Thinking
2. From this it follows that you [strike]can[/strike] can not show that the human soul exists.
3. From this it [strike]can[/strike] can not be shown that God exists.
4. Lengthy discussion of the effects on human behavior caused by the presence of the soul is now irrelevant.
5. How the concept of redemption resolves defective behavior caused by the presence of the soul is now irrelevant.
6. How the historical Christ relates to redemption is now irrelevant.
7. Discussion of other paranormal details is now seen for the claptrap that it is.
8. Discussion of religion as it stands now. Yup!

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 342 by H.sapiens]

Excellent post – outstanding reference. I have copied the article in my "User Notes" for ready reference (self and others) http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 347#748347

[earendil]

Okay. Present the complex answers. Readers may be interested. Excuses don't count.

I cannot type the entire content of the book into this forum...and every single word is required for one to understand the argument. I do not even begin discussing the historical Christ until the 15th chapter. That is how much remedial discussion is required to lay the proper foundations.

The error there is that once the foolishness of item one is exposed there is no need to go through all that other chapters.

I will give a short overview outlining the steps in explanation.

1. Show how Scientific methodology can be used correctly in the investigation of paranormal claims. Read: A Field Guide to Critical Thinking
2. From this it follows that you [strike]can[/strike] can not show that the human soul exists.
3. From this it [strike]can[/strike] can not be shown that God exists.
4. Lengthy discussion of the effects on human behavior caused by the presence of the soul is now irrelevant.
5. How the concept of redemption resolves defective behavior caused by the presence of the soul is now irrelevant.
6. How the historical Christ relates to redemption is now irrelevant.
7. Discussion of other paranormal details is now seen for the claptrap that it is.
8. Discussion of religion as it stands now. Yup!

You are right in that the first step is crictical. That is why I put it first.
But, scientific methodology can be used in the way described. The problem is that very few scientists seem to realize this. Part of the reason is that many have an almost religious attachment to the current paradigm and this prevents them from seeing this reality. I even discuss the psychological reasons for this irrational attachment.

Yes, I really do not expect much to come out of this publication because of this strange irrational behavior,.....but nobody can say I didn't try.

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 344 by earendil]

But, scientific methodology can be used in the way described. The problem is that very few scientists seem to realize this. Part of the reason is that many have an almost religious attachment to the current paradigm and this prevents them from seeing this reality. I even discuss the psychological reasons for this irrational attachment.

The paranormal has been studied with scientific methodology. Princeton has its own institute applying scientific inquiry to the paranormal.

The way I think it went is that scientists were unable to measure, verify or predict from the results because none of them produced positive results.

Do you not see how your own worldview is something to be extremely attached to, perhaps to the point what conflicts with it is dismissed or ignored?

As far as I know, this is inescapable if you are human . And to some degree, everyone does this, it seems to be how we are wired. This is never a one way street and no worldview is in itself immune, not even religious worldviews.

[Zzyzx]

.

You are right in that the first step is crictical. That is why I put it first.
But, scientific methodology can be used in the way described.

Specifically, item #1 states: "Show how Scientific methodology can be used correctly in the investigation of paranormal claims."

Has this been accomplished in this thread? If not, kindly lay out the evidence in support of the claim / statement.

The problem is that very few scientists seem to realize this.

How, exactly, has it been determined / documented what "few scientists seem to realize?"

Is this a personal opinion? Based on what valid, verifiable information?

Part of the reason is that many have an almost religious attachment to the current paradigm and this prevents them from seeing this reality.

The "current paradigm" in science is to study reality – the real world.

Study of imagination is the province of psychology and study of mythology is within the scope of literature – neither of which is science.

I even discuss the psychological reasons for this irrational attachment.

What you regard or discuss elsewhere as "irrational attachment" is of no significance in these debates.

Yes, I really do not expect much to come out of this publication because of this strange irrational behavior,.....but nobody can say I didn't try.

It might be prudent to consider that if "not much comes out of this publication" a primary reason may be that the publication is irrational or unconvincing – rather than blaming its observers or critics.

[earendil]

Yes, I really do not expect much to come out of this publication because of this strange irrational behavior,.....but nobody can say I didn't try.

It might be prudent to consider that if "not much comes out of this publication" a primary reason may be that the publication is irrational or unconvincing – rather than blaming its observers or critics.

Nobody has read it, so there are no critics ...except you and others that merely assume that they are correct (even though being completely unaware of the content)...and that really doesn't mean much.

[Zzyzx]

.

Yes, I really do not expect much to come out of this publication because of this strange irrational behavior,.....but nobody can say I didn't try.

It might be prudent to consider that if "not much comes out of this publication" a primary reason may be that the publication is irrational or unconvincing – rather than blaming its observers or critics.

Nobody has read it, so there are no critics ...except you and others that merely assume that they are correct (even though being completely unaware of the content)...and that really doesn't mean much.

Notice carefully that I take no position regarding the merits or lack thereof of said publication -- as indicated by the bold added above.

Notice also (as I trust readers do) that many other points in post #346, 345, 337, 333 have not been addressed.

[Jolly_Penguin]

I will give a short overview outlining the steps in explanation.

1. Show how Scientific methodology can be used correctly in the investigation of paranormal claims.
2. From this it follows that you can show that the human soul exists.
3. From this it can be shown that God exists.

No need to put it all in one post. How about just substantiating one of these steps? If I grant you that scientific methodology can be correctly used in the investigation of paranormal claims (which I find doubtful), how do you get from there to showing the human soul exists?Or if I grant you the human soul exists, how do you get form that to that God exists?

Can you give us even a surface level explanation of either of those steps, through science or logic, without resorting to religious texts and circular reasoning?

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

Hello Zzyzx and H.sapiens,

You’re not yet convinced of the deity of Jesus?

Please remember the two thieves that were crucified beside Him. Both were skeptical and mocked Jesus. One ask Him to come down from the cross to save both if He is truly the Son of God. But the other thief came to himself and rebuked Him, ask if he fear God, and said that they both deserved their punishment in contrast to Jesus who was innocent. What reason then did they have to mock Jesus?

The second thief asked Jesus, “Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.� Jesus responded, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.� The repentant thief had all the proof he needed.

How did the second thief end up bold enough to ask Jesus the apparently ridiculous question? Wasn’t he a thief? As the thief realized the lamb-like innocency of the person dying the same cruel death he deserved contrasted with his depravity for which he deserved to die, the spirit of the Lord revealed the grace made available to him similar to the grace made available by the sacrificed lamb of Jewish OT culture. He became aware of the needed grace because of his honest, clean hearted confession of depravity and consequent repentance of heart.

Please also remember when Peter said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.� Jesus responded, “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.� The deity of Jesus was spiritually revealed to Peter, the thief, and to us.

Are you guys satisfied now? What more can I say?

Let me clarify other points you brought up on my last post.

I’m sorry for the assertions I made about the Grand Canyon and Mt. St. Helens without pointing to the material I read to back me up. If you care, I can point you to the material. Layered erosion similar to that seen in the Grand Canyon that supposedly occurred millions of years was found to have formed very quickly in other places such as Mr. St. Helens. But as long as there is war between the creation based and the secular worldviews, so is there a geology war.

Was the Bible authored by fallible man and God a figment of imagination? You want neither to be true. Yes, I mean you! Do you want hope beyond the woes of this life untrue? What are you to do with 1 Corinthians 15:17-19? Don’t you want a trusted standard for truth without which the words of none of us would mean anything? Is it a man-made myth that you and I will die as the Bible said?
Both of you testify of dangerous situations of which you narrowly escaped. You have only testified that God was with you as He was with me. I’m sure that you are not unthankful for His mercy in keeping you. As for Adolf Hitler’s survival from the assassination attempt, it was not yet time for him to die. God is in the affairs of all man.

Israel today and events surrounding Israel are very prominent examples of prophecy coming to pass. Please check out its history since 1948.

I know you guys by the fact that you and I personally communicate, not by our joining some kind of religion or hearing religionists talk. We also know God by personal communication. Please don’t think I should prove what you can prove for yourself, you lil turkeys! You have the proof!

Who can anyone trust if he can’t trust God? Who is left other than self? Does self know everything? Is self able to do everything, 100% trustworthy, and is totally independent? Deceivers are waiting to fill the trust vacuum by clever methods of making themselves appear genuine.

Take care
Earl