Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

[Goat]

But how can an atheist find God.....Wouldn't it take a miracle.
You yourself being an atheist.... would you need a miracle to believe in God?
Can you say right here and right now you will never believe in God?

Either that, or a modification to my brain. A stroke could do that.. Approaching dementia might do that.

So, no, it wouldn't be a miracle.

[no evidence no belief]

Let's see what I can manage in 10 minutes for a laugh...

Jesus was said to be the Messiah.

Humpty Dumpty was said to have been sitting on a wall.

Paul by his own account first persecuted that movement, then converted to become one of its major evangelists (Galations 1). We can't be sure why, but this gives us prima facie reason to not dismiss Jesus out of hand.

My friend Steve, by his own account, first harrassed and scorned scientologists, then converted to become one of Scientolocy's major spokesmen. We can't be sure why, but this gives us prima facie reason not to dismiss Scientology out of hand.

Jesus is alleged to have said that 'til heaven and earth pass away, his words would not be lost (Mark 13 etc.). When Mark was written, Christianity was an insignificant Jewish/Gentile cult suffering sporadic persecution. But 2000 years later, Jesus' words remain..

As do the words of dozens of other prophets, gurus, saints, bla bla bla.

Around the 6th century BCE, the Jewish visionary Daniel wrote that 7 and 62 'sevens' after a decree to rebuild Jerusalem, a 'messiah' would be 'cut off,' which would be followed by the destruction of the temple. The only recorded decree for the rebuilding of Jerusalem in the Tanakh is in Nehemiah 2 (c. 446 BCE) - 62 sevens later is around 18 BCE, when Herod began his majestic temple upgrades, and 7 sevens after that is around 32 CE... Those figures are wrong, but I don't have time to calculate properly. There is a less than 1% margin of error for the vision to be fulfilled by Jesus. And shortly afterwards, the Jewish temple was indeed destroyed (70CE).

The legend of Humpty Dumpty - of a cosmic egg that explodes and expands in an irreversible manner - mirrors the most recent discoveries about Big Bang and Inflation theories within a margin of error of 0.9%. Centuries before we knew anything about antigravity, antimatter, dark energy, etc, Humpty Dumpty accurately rules out the possibility of a Big Crunch, a theory that was only recently disproved thanks to Nobel Winning research.

The gospel of John was written by a disciple of Jesus (stated in 1 John 1:1-3, John 1:14, 19:35, and confirmed in the appendix); so too, allegedly, was 1 Peter, and the gospel of Mark was believed to have been written by Peter's interpretor (a plausible conclusion). John's brother James was executed by Herod for his membership of the Christian sect (Acts 8 or so), and Peter was allegedly imprisoned. But despite those risks of persecution, Peter/Mark continued to declare the resurrection of Jesus. Peter was killed in Rome under Nero's persecution. But despite the execution of his brother and his friend Peter, even John continued to declare the resurrection in his gospel.

Let's pretend we can verify the statements you make here. So what! People kill themselves in suicide pacts, accept to be sacrificial lambs in their cults, mutilate themselves and their children, die, kill, suffer and accept all sorts of abuse and pain in the name of their religious beliefs. Nazi soldiers were willing to be tortured and killed rather than betray their creed and their commander. Is this evidence that Jews should be exterminated?

Why? Why did Paul convert?

Why did my friend Steve convert to Scientology?

How could Jesus/Mark declare with such confidence that his words would never disappear?

Uh, I declare with utter confidence that these words will never disappear. If they don't disappear, does that mean that zombies are real, and donkeys can talk?

How do we explain the prophecies of Daniel?

How do you explain the prophecies of Humpty Dumpty?

[no evidence no belief]

Let's see what I can manage in 10 minutes for a laugh...

Have you dried out yet? Thinking arks?

I was on my break at work

Jesus was said to be the Messiah. Paul by his own account first persecuted that movement, then converted to become one of its major evangelists (Galations 1). We can't be sure why, but this gives us prima facie reason to not dismiss Jesus out of hand.

What cannot be dismissd out of hand is Paul's belief. Paul's belief says nothing about the existence or otherwise of the Jesus of the gospels.

Paul believed that the fellow had been born a Jew (Gal. 3/4), had brothers (1 Cor. 9, Gal. 1), was crucified, rose to life and appeared to various people (1 Cor. 15). Obviously Paul himself isn't a direct/credible witness of Jesus' life or resurrection, but as a contemporary of Jesus and his followers who had for some reason radically re-evaluated his initial hostility towards the movement, we can reasonably entertain the possibility that he didn't do so based solely on lies and fairy tales.

Jesus is alleged to have said that 'til heaven and earth pass away, his words would not be lost (Mark 13 etc.). When Mark was written, Christianity was an insignificant Jewish/Gentile cult suffering sporadic persecution. But 2000 years later, Jesus' words remain..

The Vedas have been around for longer, they to self claim to be eternal, and divinely revealed.

Perhaps they are I wouldn't know. Were they written by a minor/outcast/persecuted sect, out of interest?

Around the 6th century BCE, the Jewish visionary Daniel wrote that 7 and 62 'sevens' after a decree to rebuild Jerusalem, a 'messiah' would be 'cut off,' which would be followed by the destruction of the temple. The only recorded decree for the rebuilding of Jerusalem in the Tanakh is in Nehemiah 2 (c. 446 BCE) - 62 sevens later is around 18 BCE, when Herod began his majestic temple upgrades, and 7 sevens after that is around 32 CE... Those figures are wrong, but I don't have time to calculate properly. There is a less than 1% margin of error for the vision to be fulfilled by Jesus. And shortly afterwards, the Jewish temple was indeed destroyed (70CE).

I won't speak to this...but I know that Goat has views, opinions etc on the efficacy of Daniel

It's certainly not the perfect fit that Christians would like (not without inventing a 360-day 'prophetic year' at least ). Even then there's the problem of the final 'seven.' But it's certainly a much closer match than the commonly-proposed alternative that the anointed one who was 'cut off' was the high priest Onias III. I forgot to mention that vision/prophecy is from Daniel 9:23ff, for anyone interested. Also I got the dates wrong; the end of the 69th 'seven' should be around 38CE, so depending on when Jesus died (30-33CE is a common rough estimate, though Pilate governed Judea 26-36CE) the error margin could be up to 2% of the 483 years (which let's face it, would be unacceptable for a professional deity). More on that in this thread, including a brief comment by Goat.

The gospel of John was written by a disciple of Jesus (stated in 1 John 1:1-3, John 1:14, 19:35, and confirmed in the appendix); so too, allegedly, was 1 Peter, and the gospel of Mark was believed to have been written by Peter's interpretor (a plausible conclusion). John's brother James was executed by Herod for his membership of the Christian sect (Acts 8 or so), and Peter was allegedly imprisoned.

Self claimed? Does disciple mean a direct disciple? or one who follows...as in I am a disciple of Ramana Maharshi...that does not mean I knew him personally.

Besides, self referencing biblical stories as evidence of their veracity would seem to be rather illogical.

Disciple as in a personal follower and witness. The gospel and epistle don't specifically name John as the follower/witness who wrote them - the self-references are to a 'disciple who Jesus loved' - though obviously John is the most common view among Christians. That's circumstantially supported by the fact the synoptics, Acts and Paul name Peter and John as the most prominent disciples, but the fourth gospel names only Peter and this 'beloved disciple' (and does not name the synoptics' third key disciple, John's executed brother James).

These weren't "biblical stories" when they were written; they were just Christian writings about their founder and the movement's beginnings. Who would know better than them?

But despite those risks of persecution, Peter/Mark continued to declare the resurrection of Jesus. Peter was killed in Rome under Nero's persecution. But despite the execution of his brother and his friend Peter, even John continued to declare the resurrection in his gospel.

I do not doubt that the writers of the gospels wrote what they believed and believed what they wrote...performative utterances is what i believe this phenomenon is called. Does this mean all they wrote is factual?

I think it's obvious that some of what they wrote was not factual, and in some cases was probably not intended to be considered factual either; for example Matthew's nativity story was constructed specifically to draw parallels between Jesus and Moses. But Mark's brief ending to his gospel offers no such suggestion of embellishment; and while John was writing theology more than history, his 'doubting Thomas' story suggests that the resurrection was certainly meant to be considered factual. (Paul also names the truth of the resurrection as a central and necessary doctrine of his faith.)

As for whether they might have been simply incorrect or deluded, it's certainly possible. No Evidence No Belief asked for evidence, without specifying what kind of evidence, so I figured I'd have a bash at obliging him. In light of
- Paul's conversion,
- Jesus/Mark's quite remarkable prediction of the durability of his words,
- and the extremely remarkable coincidence the Jewish temple has been destroyed only once in the 2500+ years since Daniel's vision and as predicted it was shortly after the death of a notable alleged 'messiah' in roughly the right time-frame

...it could be argued that there's enough background circumstances suggesting Jesus was not your average, run-of-the-mill cult leader. Are the claims of two disciples, in the face of persecution for themselves and those close to them, that he had in fact risen from the dead absolute proof that it actually occurred? Obviously not. Probably not even enough to convince NENB - I'm rather sceptical myself.

But it is evidence

Ah! I see what's happening

Well, that was fun.

At the end of the day, you provided evidence for the divine nature of Jesus, and I provided equally "valid" evidence for the divine nature of Humpty Dumpty.

I also provided compelling evidence for Scientology, in the form of the testimony of my friend Steve.

Hey. It's evidence


OMG! I just had a mystical vision! The prophet Mohammed just appeared to me and told me Allah is the one true God!

After years and years of scorning Islam, I now am a believer.

This is evidence that Allah is real.

I might be making this up, but then again so could the anonymous 300AD scribes who wrote the Bible.


In conclusion, what have we established in this exchange?
Donkeys can talk because Paul made a career change.
Humpty Dumpty is divinely inspired because of its similarity to modern cosmology
Scientology is real because Steve says so
Islam is real because I had a vision.

Alternatively, we might conclude that all of this evidence is invalid because the methodology to obtain it could be applied to ANYTHING at all, and thus conclude that no valid evidence has been provided for any topic yet.

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

Ok, 940 views, 62 postings, and ZERO valid evidence of any supernatural beliefs has been presented.

How long should I wait?

[Mithrae]

Let's see what I can manage in 10 minutes for a laugh...

Jesus was said to be the Messiah.

Humpty Dumpty was said to have been sitting on a wall.

Paul by his own account first persecuted that movement, then converted to become one of its major evangelists (Galations 1). We can't be sure why, but this gives us prima facie reason to not dismiss Jesus out of hand.

My friend Steve, by his own account, first harrassed and scorned scientologists, then converted to become one of Scientolocy's major spokesmen. We can't be sure why, but this gives us prima facie reason not to dismiss Scientology out of hand.

Agreed.

Jesus is alleged to have said that 'til heaven and earth pass away, his words would not be lost (Mark 13 etc.). When Mark was written, Christianity was an insignificant Jewish/Gentile cult suffering sporadic persecution. But 2000 years later, Jesus' words remain..

As do the words of dozens of other prophets, gurus, saints, bla bla bla.

Around the 6th century BCE, the Jewish visionary Daniel wrote that 7 and 62 'sevens' after a decree to rebuild Jerusalem, a 'messiah' would be 'cut off,' which would be followed by the destruction of the temple. The only recorded decree for the rebuilding of Jerusalem in the Tanakh is in Nehemiah 2 (c. 446 BCE) - 62 sevens later is around 18 BCE, when Herod began his majestic temple upgrades, and 7 sevens after that is around 32 CE... Those figures are wrong, but I don't have time to calculate properly. There is a less than 1% margin of error for the vision to be fulfilled by Jesus. And shortly afterwards, the Jewish temple was indeed destroyed (70CE).

The legend of Humpty Dumpty - of a cosmic egg that explodes and expands in an irreversible manner - mirrors the most recent discoveries about Big Bang and Inflation theories within a margin of error of 0.9%. Centuries before we knew anything about antigravity, antimatter, dark energy, etc, Humpty Dumpty accurately rules out the possibility of a Big Crunch, a theory that was only recently disproved thanks to Nobel Winning research.

Please provide a source, or retract your claim.

The gospel of John was written by a disciple of Jesus (stated in 1 John 1:1-3, John 1:14, 19:35, and confirmed in the appendix); so too, allegedly, was 1 Peter, and the gospel of Mark was believed to have been written by Peter's interpretor (a plausible conclusion). John's brother James was executed by Herod for his membership of the Christian sect (Acts 8 or so), and Peter was allegedly imprisoned. But despite those risks of persecution, Peter/Mark continued to declare the resurrection of Jesus. Peter was killed in Rome under Nero's persecution. But despite the execution of his brother and his friend Peter, even John continued to declare the resurrection in his gospel.

Let's pretend we can verify the statements you make here. So what! People kill themselves in suicide pacts, accept to be sacrificial lambs in their cults, mutilate themselves and their children, die, kill, suffer and accept all sorts of abuse and pain in the name of their religious beliefs. Nazi soldiers were willing to be tortured and killed rather than betray their creed and their commander. Is this evidence that Jews should be exterminated?

It's evidence that they strongly believed in their cause/loyalty etc.

Why? Why did Paul convert?

Why did my friend Steve convert to Scientology?

Ask him.

How could Jesus/Mark declare with such confidence that his words would never disappear?

Uh, I declare with utter confidence that these words will never disappear. If they don't disappear, does that mean that zombies are real, and donkeys can talk?

What are you blithering about? Who said anything about talking donkeys?

How do we explain the prophecies of Daniel?

How do you explain the prophecies of Humpty Dumpty?[/quote]
What prophecies?

---

Well, that was fun.

At the end of the day, you provided evidence for the divine nature of Jesus, and I provided equally "valid" evidence for the divine nature of Humpty Dumpty.

I also provided compelling evidence for Scientology, in the form of the testimony of my friend Steve.

You made a bunch of unreferenced claims with no obvious logical connections, I'll give you that. Perhaps you should look up the basics of debating before making an attempt at it?

---

Ok, 940 views, 62 postings, and ZERO valid evidence of any supernatural beliefs has been presented.

How long should I wait?

Why don't you try actually addressing what I've written? A Creationist could also say there is ZERO evidence for evolution - and make up stories about Humpty Dumpty to prove it! But while it's probably fun to do, it obviously has no intellectual merit. It just makes 'em look foolish.

[AdHoc]

And yet you are furiously beating around it yourself...
I'll say it one more time... Please tell me what evidence you would accept
Like are we talking photographs? Signed witness statements? A glove? DNA?...What?

What evidence I would accept... FOR WHAT?

Yes! To confirm paternity of a child, I would accept DNA evidence. To verify my wife was having an affair, photographs. To verify that there was a car accident near my house, signed witness statements would suffice. The kind of evidence I would accept DEPENDS ON WHAT THE CLAIM IS!

Why are you refusing to tell me what you believe? We can't even begin to discuss what evidence I would accept for your belief, if you don't tell me what your belief is! Are you a theist? Are you a deist? Are you an atheist? Christian? Buddhist? Muslim? Bigfoot enthusiast? Psychic? Omeopathist? Scientologist? Satanist?

Do you believe in the talking donkey of Numbers 22? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.

Do you believe in Spiderman? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.

Just tell me what you believe, for Pete's sake! This is the most absurd discussion I've ever had.

Oh sorry about that, I'm a Christian so yeah I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is true and this would include among other things the account of Balaam's donkey.

Ok, no prob. Thanks for clearing that up.

So, let's talk about the zombie invasion of Jerusalem circa 33Ad, reported in Matthew 27.

What evidence would I accept for the veracity of this story?

Well, based on my current understanding of relevant facts, the evidence would have to definitely be strong enough to counter all scientific and medical knowledge of how animal bodies work, which tells us quite conclusively that reverting the denaturing of enzymes in the brain and the composition of bodies is physically impossible.

But the fact is that there might be something I've never thought of before, which might convince me that a zombie invasion actually happened. You might be able to convince me that the laws of physics were suspended or something, so that our knowledge of science and medicine need not apply.

So please provide whatever evidence you have, and we can take it from there.

Hey I told you what I believed and you said you would say what you expected for evidence... Or at least that's what I thought.

Can you tell me what you expect for evidence?

Ok, that's fine.

Please provide evidence that everything we know about biology, chemistry and physics is completely 100% wrong.

Because every single subbranch of biology, chemistry and physics unanimously and concurrently agree, through repeatable empirical experimentation done over centuries by millions of people who dedicated their life to truth, that decomposing bodies do NOT come back to life.

Therefore either Matthew 27 is wrong, or science is fundamentally wrong.

So please provide evidence that whole of science is fundamentally false, and explain why it is that satellites stay in orbit, people with polio vaccine never catch polio, and you are able to instantly read this message I typed from my own house, if science is fundamentally false.

I need to prove that three branches of science are 100% wrong?

Did I miss a memo?

And how did we get onto satelites and polio and your typing skills? I think I'm lost... You win.

[Dantalion]

And yet you are furiously beating around it yourself...
I'll say it one more time... Please tell me what evidence you would accept
Like are we talking photographs? Signed witness statements? A glove? DNA?...What?

What evidence I would accept... FOR WHAT?

Yes! To confirm paternity of a child, I would accept DNA evidence. To verify my wife was having an affair, photographs. To verify that there was a car accident near my house, signed witness statements would suffice. The kind of evidence I would accept DEPENDS ON WHAT THE CLAIM IS!

Why are you refusing to tell me what you believe? We can't even begin to discuss what evidence I would accept for your belief, if you don't tell me what your belief is! Are you a theist? Are you a deist? Are you an atheist? Christian? Buddhist? Muslim? Bigfoot enthusiast? Psychic? Omeopathist? Scientologist? Satanist?

Do you believe in the talking donkey of Numbers 22? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.

Do you believe in Spiderman? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.

Just tell me what you believe, for Pete's sake! This is the most absurd discussion I've ever had.

Oh sorry about that, I'm a Christian so yeah I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is true and this would include among other things the account of Balaam's donkey.

Ok, no prob. Thanks for clearing that up.

So, let's talk about the zombie invasion of Jerusalem circa 33Ad, reported in Matthew 27.

What evidence would I accept for the veracity of this story?

Well, based on my current understanding of relevant facts, the evidence would have to definitely be strong enough to counter all scientific and medical knowledge of how animal bodies work, which tells us quite conclusively that reverting the denaturing of enzymes in the brain and the composition of bodies is physically impossible.

But the fact is that there might be something I've never thought of before, which might convince me that a zombie invasion actually happened. You might be able to convince me that the laws of physics were suspended or something, so that our knowledge of science and medicine need not apply.

So please provide whatever evidence you have, and we can take it from there.

Hey I told you what I believed and you said you would say what you expected for evidence... Or at least that's what I thought.

Can you tell me what you expect for evidence?

Ok, that's fine.

Please provide evidence that everything we know about biology, chemistry and physics is completely 100% wrong.

Because every single subbranch of biology, chemistry and physics unanimously and concurrently agree, through repeatable empirical experimentation done over centuries by millions of people who dedicated their life to truth, that decomposing bodies do NOT come back to life.

Therefore either Matthew 27 is wrong, or science is fundamentally wrong.

So please provide evidence that whole of science is fundamentally false, and explain why it is that satellites stay in orbit, people with polio vaccine never catch polio, and you are able to instantly read this message I typed from my own house, if science is fundamentally false.

I need to prove that three branches of science are 100% wrong?

Did I miss a memo?

And how did we get onto satelites and polio and your typing skills? I think I'm lost... You win.

Just as I predicted (or should I say prohesized ?), a complete dodge...
Do you really want his argument and questions presented and explained to you in a kindergarten way or do you at least have the intellectual honesty to just admit that you understood yet failed his challenge?

[Mithrae]

So please provide evidence that whole of science is fundamentally false, and explain why it is that satellites stay in orbit, people with polio vaccine never catch polio, and you are able to instantly read this message I typed from my own house, if science is fundamentally false.

I need to prove that three branches of science are 100% wrong?

Did I miss a memo?

And how did we get onto satelites and polio and your typing skills? I think I'm lost... You win.

Just as I predicted (or should I say prohesized ?), a complete dodge...
Do you really want his argument and questions presented and explained to you in a kindergarten way or do you at least have the intellectual honesty to just admit that you understood yet failed his challenge?

I must admit I myself am having a hard time understanding why "evidence that whole of science is fundamentally false" would be either necessary or sufficient to show that there was a zombie invasion in early 1st century Jerusalem. Kindergarten reasoning indeed. But if you'll note that bit in blue, it does look as though Ad Hoc has agreed that NENB won his little challenge. You seem to be seeing what you want to see - but you'll be intellectually honest enough to admit that Ad Hoc did in fact, quite explicitly, concede the challenge?

[no evidence no belief]

Let's see what I can manage in 10 minutes for a laugh...

Jesus was said to be the Messiah.

Humpty Dumpty was said to have been sitting on a wall.

Paul by his own account first persecuted that movement, then converted to become one of its major evangelists (Galations 1). We can't be sure why, but this gives us prima facie reason to not dismiss Jesus out of hand.

My friend Steve, by his own account, first harrassed and scorned scientologists, then converted to become one of Scientolocy's major spokesmen. We can't be sure why, but this gives us prima facie reason not to dismiss Scientology out of hand.

Agreed.

I guess the conclusion is that we shouldn't dismiss anything that anybody says out of hand. We should dismiss it after we see that what somebody is saying is backed up by zero reliable evidence.

Jesus is alleged to have said that 'til heaven and earth pass away, his words would not be lost (Mark 13 etc.). When Mark was written, Christianity was an insignificant Jewish/Gentile cult suffering sporadic persecution. But 2000 years later, Jesus' words remain..

As do the words of dozens of other prophets, gurus, saints, bla bla bla.

Around the 6th century BCE, the Jewish visionary Daniel wrote that 7 and 62 'sevens' after a decree to rebuild Jerusalem, a 'messiah' would be 'cut off,' which would be followed by the destruction of the temple. The only recorded decree for the rebuilding of Jerusalem in the Tanakh is in Nehemiah 2 (c. 446 BCE) - 62 sevens later is around 18 BCE, when Herod began his majestic temple upgrades, and 7 sevens after that is around 32 CE... Those figures are wrong, but I don't have time to calculate properly. There is a less than 1% margin of error for the vision to be fulfilled by Jesus. And shortly afterwards, the Jewish temple was indeed destroyed (70CE).

The legend of Humpty Dumpty - of a cosmic egg that explodes and expands in an irreversible manner - mirrors the most recent discoveries about Big Bang and Inflation theories within a margin of error of 0.9%. Centuries before we knew anything about antigravity, antimatter, dark energy, etc, Humpty Dumpty accurately rules out the possibility of a Big Crunch, a theory that was only recently disproved thanks to Nobel Winning research.

Please provide a source, or retract your claim.

Well. I am the source. I hereby declare, through my ability to interpret literature, that the story of Humpty Dumpty is a metaphor for the Big Bang. Humpty dumpty is the pre big bang cosmic egg, the wall it's sitting on is a metaphor for a timeless locus, the fall is the big bang, and the line about it being impossible to put humpty dumpty together again rules out the possibility of the Big Crunch, which is a recently dismissed theory about the possible fates of the universe. It's remarkable that the author of humpty dumpty was able to predict so accurately something that it would take science centuries to eventually catch up to.

My interpretation of this text as a prophecy is at least as valid and methodologically sound as anybody's interpretation of any passage in the Bible as prophecy.

The gospel of John was written by a disciple of Jesus (stated in 1 John 1:1-3, John 1:14, 19:35, and confirmed in the appendix); so too, allegedly, was 1 Peter, and the gospel of Mark was believed to have been written by Peter's interpretor (a plausible conclusion). John's brother James was executed by Herod for his membership of the Christian sect (Acts 8 or so), and Peter was allegedly imprisoned. But despite those risks of persecution, Peter/Mark continued to declare the resurrection of Jesus. Peter was killed in Rome under Nero's persecution. But despite the execution of his brother and his friend Peter, even John continued to declare the resurrection in his gospel.

Let's pretend we can verify the statements you make here. So what! People kill themselves in suicide pacts, accept to be sacrificial lambs in their cults, mutilate themselves and their children, die, kill, suffer and accept all sorts of abuse and pain in the name of their religious beliefs. Nazi soldiers were willing to be tortured and killed rather than betray their creed and their commander. Is this evidence that Jews should be exterminated?

It's evidence that they strongly believed in their cause/loyalty etc.

Correct.
Nazis were willing to die for their beliefs
The 9-11 terrorists were willing to die for their beliefs
Martin Luther King was willing to die for his beliefs
Early Christians were willing to be persecuted and die at the hands of pagans for their beliefs
Pagans were willing to be persecuted and die at the hands of Christians for their beliefs

It looks like it's a basic trait of humans that they are sometimes willing to die for their beliefs, irrespective of whether their belief is moral or immoral, justified or unjustified, crazy or rational, noble or disgusting.

Therefore somebody's willingness to die for his beliefs tells us NOTHING, and thus is NOT evidence, of the veracity of that belief

Why? Why did Paul convert?

Why did my friend Steve convert to Scientology?

Ask him.

He is dead now, just like Paul. So we just have to assume that the reason he converted is no more and no less valid for Steve as it was for Paul.

How could Jesus/Mark declare with such confidence that his words would never disappear?

Uh, I declare with utter confidence that these words will never disappear. If they don't disappear, does that mean that zombies are real, and donkeys can talk?

What are you blithering about? Who said anything about talking donkeys?

Numbers 22. It's one of the books in the Old Testament.

I specifically request evidence for the supernatural in my OP, and cite the talking donkey as an example. Since you don't specify what element of Christian dogma you allege your "evidence" proves, I assume you allege it proves all of it, including the talking donkey. If I was wrong in this assumption, please clearly spell out what specific supernatural claim you think your evidence demonstrates.

How do we explain the prophecies of Daniel?

How do you explain the prophecies of Humpty Dumpty?

What prophecies?

The author of Humpty Dumpty predicted in his metaphoric literature that we would in the 21st century discover that it's impossible to reverse the process of explosion of the cosmic egg.

Well, that was fun.

At the end of the day, you provided evidence for the divine nature of Jesus, and I provided equally "valid" evidence for the divine nature of Humpty Dumpty.

I also provided compelling evidence for Scientology, in the form of the testimony of my friend Steve.

You made a bunch of unreferenced claims with no obvious logical connections, I'll give you that. Perhaps you should look up the basics of debating before making an attempt at it?

Ok, so there is no logical similarity between some guy called paul converting to Christianity, and some guy called Steve converting to Scientology? Exactly what basic debating rule does it violate, if I draw a parallel between these two to underline the notion that Paul's conversion does NOT lend some kind of special truth to the creed he happens to have converted to?

Ok, 940 views, 62 postings, and ZERO valid evidence of any supernatural beliefs has been presented.

How long should I wait?

Why don't you try actually addressing what I've written? A Creationist could also say there is ZERO evidence for evolution - and make up stories about Humpty Dumpty to prove it! But while it's probably fun to do, it obviously has no intellectual merit. It just makes 'em look foolish.

I did address what you wrote.

The evidence you present is the following:
1) People said Jesus was the Messiah
2) Paul first didn't believe it but then he believed it
3) Some mumbo jumbo about numerical coincidence
4) People were willing to die for their belief in Jesus

My answer
1) Messiahs, Prophets and Gurus are a dollar a dozen throughout history.
2) Conversion to ALL SORTS OF BELIEFS if very common
3) If you try hard enough you can fabricate numerical coincidences for anything
4) People are willing to die for all sorts of beliefs


But I did have one monumental failure in this exchange, and I apologize for it.

I forgot to ask you what it is that this data you present is evidence FOR.

The OP specifically asks for evidence of the supernatural. What specific supernatural fact/event are you saying that what you submitted is evidence of?

This is very important to clarify. Because if all you want to prove is that Paul had a profound existential experience and subsequent conversion, then you have probably met your burden of proof.

But I doubt that's what you're trying to demonstrate with the evidence you're submitting. Please clearly outline which supernatural phenomenon you're trying to demonstrate: The walking on water? The talking snake? The talking donkey? The zombie invasion? The Great Flood? The invisible skydaddy getting a girl remotely pregnant?

[no evidence no belief]

And yet you are furiously beating around it yourself...
I'll say it one more time... Please tell me what evidence you would accept
Like are we talking photographs? Signed witness statements? A glove? DNA?...What?

What evidence I would accept... FOR WHAT?

Yes! To confirm paternity of a child, I would accept DNA evidence. To verify my wife was having an affair, photographs. To verify that there was a car accident near my house, signed witness statements would suffice. The kind of evidence I would accept DEPENDS ON WHAT THE CLAIM IS!

Why are you refusing to tell me what you believe? We can't even begin to discuss what evidence I would accept for your belief, if you don't tell me what your belief is! Are you a theist? Are you a deist? Are you an atheist? Christian? Buddhist? Muslim? Bigfoot enthusiast? Psychic? Omeopathist? Scientologist? Satanist?

Do you believe in the talking donkey of Numbers 22? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.

Do you believe in Spiderman? If you do, then tell me, so we can talk about what evidence it's reasonable to expect for such a claim.

Just tell me what you believe, for Pete's sake! This is the most absurd discussion I've ever had.

Oh sorry about that, I'm a Christian so yeah I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is true and this would include among other things the account of Balaam's donkey.

Ok, no prob. Thanks for clearing that up.

So, let's talk about the zombie invasion of Jerusalem circa 33Ad, reported in Matthew 27.

What evidence would I accept for the veracity of this story?

Well, based on my current understanding of relevant facts, the evidence would have to definitely be strong enough to counter all scientific and medical knowledge of how animal bodies work, which tells us quite conclusively that reverting the denaturing of enzymes in the brain and the composition of bodies is physically impossible.

But the fact is that there might be something I've never thought of before, which might convince me that a zombie invasion actually happened. You might be able to convince me that the laws of physics were suspended or something, so that our knowledge of science and medicine need not apply.

So please provide whatever evidence you have, and we can take it from there.

Hey I told you what I believed and you said you would say what you expected for evidence... Or at least that's what I thought.

Can you tell me what you expect for evidence?

Ok, that's fine.

Please provide evidence that everything we know about biology, chemistry and physics is completely 100% wrong.

Because every single subbranch of biology, chemistry and physics unanimously and concurrently agree, through repeatable empirical experimentation done over centuries by millions of people who dedicated their life to truth, that decomposing bodies do NOT come back to life.

Therefore either Matthew 27 is wrong, or science is fundamentally wrong.

So please provide evidence that whole of science is fundamentally false, and explain why it is that satellites stay in orbit, people with polio vaccine never catch polio, and you are able to instantly read this message I typed from my own house, if science is fundamentally false.

I need to prove that three branches of science are 100% wrong?

Did I miss a memo?

And how did we get onto satelites and polio and your typing skills? I think I'm lost... You win.

Thank you for conceding.

Will you now abandon the Christian faith?