Does God cause evil?

[DanieltheDragon]

Does God cause evil?

Some assert that God causes no evil. Is there cause to believe this is true. Can this position be supported. Is the character described in the bible incapable of evil?

I would assert that a position that claims God created everything would make him the original cause of evil. That God cannot escape being the cause of evil since he created any and all situations in which evil would arise.

[Donray]

...

My contention is not that God doesn't do evil, but that all of the evil God does is for a "happy conclusion"...

i.e., it is always for the sake of life in the broadest sense possible. It's betterment and support.

Please explain how this applies to Exodus. First off god hardens the Pharaohs heart so that he can murder lots of people. Why could not god just moved all the Jews and not killed anyone? Why not just present yourself as a 200 foot tall god to the Pharaoh that I am sure would have cause him to relies all the Jews? Why not just make a pile of gold to get the release of the Jews? What about just soften the Pharaoh heart to release the Jews without killing people?

So, please explain how your k=murdering all the babies and people was beneficial to the people of Egypt?

Your god could think of nothing else excpt a lot stuff the muredered lots of people?

[theophile]

[Replying to Donray]

Please explain how this applies to Exodus. First off god hardens the Pharaohs heart so that he can murder lots of people. Why could not god just moved all the Jews and not killed anyone? Why not just present yourself as a 200 foot tall god to the Pharaoh that I am sure would have cause him to relies all the Jews? Why not just make a pile of gold to get the release of the Jews? What about just soften the Pharaoh heart to release the Jews without killing people?

I think you're making a lot of assumptions and conclusions about the text here that I would not make.

Ultimately, you have a people enslaving another people. That is evil. That is an oppressive order that needs to be broken if it refuses to let the people go. (And yes, that calamity is itself evil, but for the sake of good.)

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to Tired of the Nonsense]

We need to first come to an understanding of what evil is. Believers often conceive of evil as a physical force in the world. This force is represented, according to common Christian belief, by Satan. But evil has no such physical existence. Evil is an opinion... a concept. And the concept of evil revolves around the hideous things that humans do to other humans. Hitler was responsible for the deaths of millions. He was evil according to common modern opinion. I doubt that his opinion of himself was that he was evil. Opinions differ.

I gave a short definition before.

Good is that which supports or benefits life.
Evil is that which hinders or is adverse to life.

Thus we see God doing self-declared good in Genesis 1 in the shaping and filling of the earth.

Thus we see evil enter the picture in Genesis 3 (through sin) as adversity to life - laborious farming, marital discord, painful childbirth, enmities with animal-kind...

These are all evil. The fruits of sin.

But with this definition of good and evil, again, I can see God causing both.

God will cause evil when life itself is causing evil. e.g., the flood. This is not evil as the result of sin, but evil to correct things and give life - good life - a chance.

Good is that which supports or benefits life.
Evil is that which hinders or is adverse to life.

The problem with these statements is that they are child-like in their simplicity. Reality is much more complicated. Rain and sunshine are beneficial to life. Too much rain causes floods however, and too much sunshine and not enough rain causes drought, both of which are harmful to life. It may be fair within the definition of good and bad, to consider these things either good or bad, depending on how they affect life. But they are not evil. According to your theory, tornadoes and hurricanes and earthquakes and volcanoes and too much cold, or too much heat, are evil. And yet the same forces that drive tornadoes and hurricanes and the rest are the forces which also cause sunlight and rain. Tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, and any natural event you can name, are not driven by conscious thought. They are not evil. They simply are a response to the fact that energy interacts with itself according to the principles of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is not evil. Quantum mechanics is the force that drives the universe. No quantum mechanics, no universe at all.

I should also point out that imagination and make believe have no physical effect on the universe at all.

[Donray]

[Replying to Donray]

Please explain how this applies to Exodus. First off god hardens the Pharaohs heart so that he can murder lots of people. Why could not god just moved all the Jews and not killed anyone? Why not just present yourself as a 200 foot tall god to the Pharaoh that I am sure would have cause him to relies all the Jews? Why not just make a pile of gold to get the release of the Jews? What about just soften the Pharaoh heart to release the Jews without killing people?

I think you're making a lot of assumptions and conclusions about the text here that I would not make.

Ultimately, you have a people enslaving another people. That is evil. That is an oppressive order that needs to be broken if it refuses to let the people go.

Did your god harden the Pharaohs heart?

Did your god murder first born babies/children?

Did your god kill all the fish in the river by turning them to blood and therefore killing many people through starvation?

Did your god cause locust to eat crops and therefore starve more people?

Could your god have figured out how to release the Jews without murdering people?

What fact do I have wrong?

Tell me why any of my ideas your god could not do?

The story shows a vindictive evil god. That is the god your worship.

So, explain why your god could not just intimidated the Pharaoh by appearing to him 200 feet tall? I could think of hundreds of whys to have a Pharaoh release the Jews without killing half the Egyptians? But, your god evidently likes to kill people to get his point across.

What is worse, being a slave or being killed?

[theophile]

[Replying to post 63 by Tired of the Nonsense]

The problem with these statements is that they are child-like in their simplicity. Reality is much more complicated. Rain and sunshine are beneficial to life. Too much rain causes floods however, and too much sunshine and not enough rain causes drought, both of which are harmful to life. It may be fair within the definition of good and bad, to consider these things either good or bad, depending on how they affect life. But they are not evil. According to your theory, tornadoes and hurricanes and earthquakes and volcanoes and too much cold, or too much heat, are evil. And yet the same forces that drive tornadoes and hurricanes and the rest are the forces which also cause sunlight and rain. Tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, and any natural event you can name, are not driven by conscious thought. They are not evil. They simply are a response to the fact that energy interacts with itself according to the principles of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is not evil. Because you see, no quantum mechanics, no universe at all.

Good and bad, good and evil - what's the difference? I would wholeheartedly say that tornadoes and droughts are bad/evil (I find no reason to differentiate these terms).

Is your point that evil must be "driven by conscious thought"? And that this is what differentiates? Okay...

What is it about an event being driven by conscious thought that makes it evil?

I propose in answer precisely what I said: the fact that it is adverse to life.

Note in my response to Willum I unpacked this a bit more. In the biblical worldview, there is a chaos in the pre-existing materials that God creates with. See tehom, or the deep, which is tantamount to the chaos monster of other creation myths.

Is this chaos evil per se? No, but it can cause evil. Storms. Droughts. Perhaps even quantum events (although these might be too small to matter to life).

If you want to call this non-conscious stuff "bad" and the conscious stuff "evil" that's fine. Happy to do so.

But the end result is the same: whether bad or evil, both are adverse to life, and it is this fundamental aspect of them that makes them what they are (i.e., bad/evil).

[William]

[Replying to post 59 by Donray]

You do know when discussing evolution we discuss living things?

Biological evolution...what came first, the universe, or biological life forms?

The universe is evolving and is part of the process necessary in order for biological life forms to evolve.

The argument is that something intelligent, self aware etc did not come from a dead thing, a mindless process - but a living and intelligent one.

Evil isn't caused by the environment and is strictly the focus of behavior from beings capable of discerning. The concepts of good and evil are human and still developing.

[William]

[Replying to post 65 by theophile]

Why is a tornado adverse to life and thus considered to being evil?

[marco]

So that's that. God does evil. Full stop. No question about it.

My contention, however, is that the evil God does is always for good.

Which is to say the end justifies the means, regardless of who suffers in the process.

My contention is not that God doesn't do evil, but that all of the evil God does is for a "happy conclusion"...

i.e., it is always for the sake of life in the broadest sense possible. It's betterment and support.

Well obviously we cannot examine the proposition that all evil acts of God were done for a good conclusion. An evil-doer whose action results in good does not have his deed sanctified. Of course we can justify almost anything and with God helping us, then evil can quickly blossom into good. I think if we go down this road we start to justify torture and burning, for the good that they eventually bring.

[marco]

The command was only evil if it actually meant an innocent should die. Nothing leads me to think that YHWH expected an innocent to die that day...

No - the command itself was evil. It is WRONG to tell someone to murder his son. The hilarious consequence and the hugs and kisses that followed do not in any sense remove the stigma from the command. They are an irrelevance. The tale provides a bad precedent for folk who hear God telling them to do something bad. It can no longer be argued that God would not order something that is patently wrong. He did.

[theophile]

[Replying to post 64 by Donray]

Did your god harden the Pharaohs heart?

God, by initiating action to take Israel away from Pharaoh, hardened Pharaoh's heart, yes. Much the same way if I tried to take what you think is yours, you would stiffen and tighten your grip on it.

Did your god murder first born babies/children?

Did your god kill all the fish in the river by turning them to blood and therefore killing many people through starvation?

Did your god cause locust to eat crops and therefore starve more people?

Pretty sure I said from the get-go that God causes evil (for the sake of good). These would all qualify as such (all performed to free Israel from Egypt, i.e. for good). What is your point?

Could your god have figured out how to release the Jews without murdering people?

I think escalation to extreme action was necessary in this case. Pharaoh was unyielding / his heart was hard. He insisted on being an oppressive force in the world. Thus God escalated the situation until he broke Pharaoh's will.

No different than, say, the American Civil War. What action would have been justified to break the hard heart of the South? Is evil against an oppressor not justified to save the oppressed?...

What fact do I have wrong?

You probably misunderstand the hardening of Pharaoh's heart as a direct action of God. You also seem to think that evil (such as slavery) should go unchecked. I think that's incredibly wrong. I would rather commit evil against oppressors than let them continue to oppress.

The story shows a vindictive evil god. That is the god your worship.

No, it shows a God who frees the oppressed.

So, explain why your god could not just intimidated the Pharaoh by appearing to him 200 feet tall? I could think of hundreds of whys to have a Pharaoh release the Jews without killing half the Egyptians? But, your god evidently likes to kill people to get his point across.

Do you really think that appearing 200 feet tall would have done anything if Pharaoh didn't relent after what he witnessed? Come on man.

What is worse, being a slave or being killed?

Why don't you ask a slave that? I'm sure many would say the latter, hence why they risked death to be free.